APDS vs Explosive rounds Options

[FuelDrop]

Now that both APDS and explosive rounds are Chargen available, lets compare the two and find out if either of them is mechanically superior to the other.

Let's start with how hard they are to get.
APDS is 12F to EX rounds 9F. This means that EX rounds are significantly easier to acquire (25% easier, to be precise).
APDS cost 120 nuyen per ten, to EX's 80 nuyen per ten. that means you get 50% more EX rounds for the same price.

Already, EX is looking better for suppression fire and automatic weapons purposes. If you're going to be firing a lot of them, the cheaper and easier to get ammunition has an advantage.

Now both of these rounds are noticeably more expensive and harder to get than regular rounds. Is the advantage they offer worth the extra price and hassle?

Well, EX rounds give +1 damage and -1 AP, while APDS simply gives -4 AP. Now on the surface those two sets of numbers come out as about the same against most targets. Right?

Let's look at some common targets to end up downrange of runners. For these tests we'll be using an Ares Predator heavy pistol, something almost every runner has or can get without much difficulty. Base damage is 8p, base AP is -1.

Target number 1: guard dog.
The guard dog has no armour, making all armour penetration modifiers redundant. as such, Explosive rounds win this one hands down. Technically Flechette rounds are superior to both in this instance, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

Target number 2: Doberman Drone.
A standard Doberman drone comes with 4 points of armour. The APDS rounds are punching right through that and are in fact over-penetrating due to the power of the pistol. That means that our bullets are wasting some of their potential. Explosive rounds, on the other hand, are hitting with full oomph and not wasting anything, making them superior in this situation.

Target number 3: Corpsec with Armour Vest.
At armour 9 both rounds are doing physical damage if they hit, neither round is overpenetrating... both rounds are fairly even in this instance.

Target number 4: Ganger with Helmet and Armoured Jacket.
Our target has an armour value of 14. For our Explosive rounds to deal lethal damage the shooter needs to get at least 3 net hits. Not exactly a tall order, but still necessitating at least a bit of skill behind it. APDS on the other hand will punch right through if you get even a single net hit. This one depends on how your GM runs grunts (Note: with the mowing them down optional rules special ammunition is a waste of money), and from that whether dealing physical damage instead of stun makes any difference.

Target number 5: Ares Roadmaster.
An Ares Roadmaster has 18 points of armour and is immune to stun. EX rounds need 7 hits to have a chance of doing damage (capping the weapon's accuracy), while the APDS needs a mere 5 hits. Either way the soak pool is large enough to make your attack into scratch damage, but the APDS is superior in this instance.

Target number 6: force 6 spirit.
12 points of hardened armour. Now with a single hit both of these rounds will be dealing damage, but lets break it down:
EX: 10 damage, -2 armour. Hardened armour 10 automatically gets 5 hits, reducing the damage by half before soak is even rolled. With something like 16 dice to soak the remaining 5 damage, on average our spirit no-sells the hit.
APDS: 9 damage, -5 armour. 7 hardened armour auto-soaks 4, leaving 5 points again. The spirit now has 13 dice to soak with, leaving an average of 1 damage.

In this instance, APDS is superior.

Results: Against lightly armoured targets Explosive rounds are superior. When you start reaching medium armour the two ammunition types are about even in effect. Against heavily and hardened armour targets APDS rounds pull ahead.

IE: Against armoured targets the anti-armour ammunition is more effective. Who'd have thought it?

[RHat]

Do remember the risk of Ex-Ex exploding in the clip.

[FuelDrop]

Do remember the risk of Ex-Ex exploding in the clip.

And the fact that silencing a weapon filled with explosive ammunition is a waste of time. yeah, I was going to add those in but forgot.

[Medicineman]

And the fact that silencing a weapon filled with explosive ammunition is a waste of time.

not for a Sniper who's hiding 1/2 a Mile away

with a silent Dance
Medicineman

[Dolanar]

its actually very useful for a sniper, you just hear an explosion assuming you're not dead.

[Surukai]

Well done general analysis. IT shows a subtle difference between the two ammo types that show a good designed choice of ammo that isn't just "one is simply better in 99% of the cases" (like SnS in SR4 vs everything but mechanical targets).

To add flechette rounds to your list.

In a very general case -AP is 1/3 as effective compared to +damage (and vice versa)

Expected effect of ammo vs "normal" targets (they wear some armour)

AODS; +1 1/3 damage, almost always physical
Explosive: +1 1/3 damage, only better than APDS vs light/no armour
Flechette rounds: +1/3 damage (+2 damage -1 2/3 extra damage resist). Good stun ammo LEGAL
Gel rounds: -1/3 damage, guaranteed stun
Hollow points: +1/3 damage no real use, flechette do same job cheaper and isn't Forbidden!
Regular ammo: +0 LEGAL , cheaper (only really matters for auto), easy to get
Stick'n'Shock: -1/3 damage. Guaranteed stun, much better than Gel rounds but more expensive. Still Legal.

Only Hollow Point come out as completely useless but then again, it is a very old tech that is surpassed by the far more modern ammo types. If you want to spend extra cash on old useless stupid ammo, go ahead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The effect of APDS/ vs Explosive is detailed extremely well in the OP and the slight overall advantage of APDS against general targets is well offset by the higher cost and availability making all ammo choices interesting and all have their niche (even if hollow point have the niche of being old, expensive but slightly easier to get than it's better competitor)

[Wounded Ronin]

Do remember the risk of Ex-Ex exploding in the clip.

Magazine?

[FuelDrop]

Well done general analysis. IT shows a subtle difference between the two ammo types that show a good designed choice of ammo that isn't just "one is simply better in 99% of the cases" (like SnS in SR4 vs everything but mechanical targets).

To add flechette rounds to your list.

In a very general case -AP is 1/3 as effective compared to +damage (and vice versa)

Expected effect of ammo vs "normal" targets (they wear some armour)

AODS; +1 1/3 damage, almost always physical
Explosive: +1 1/3 damage, only better than APDS vs light/no armour
Flechette rounds: +1/3 damage (+2 damage -1 2/3 extra damage resist). Good stun ammo LEGAL
Gel rounds: -1/3 damage, guaranteed stun
Hollow points: +1/3 damage no real use, flechette do same job cheaper and isn't Forbidden!
Regular ammo: +0 LEGAL , cheaper (only really matters for auto), easy to get
Stick'n'Shock: -1/3 damage. Guaranteed stun, much better than Gel rounds but more expensive. Still Legal.

Only Hollow Point come out as completely useless but then again, it is a very old tech that is surpassed by the far more modern ammo types. If you want to spend extra cash on old useless stupid ammo, go ahead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The effect of APDS/ vs Explosive is detailed extremely well in the OP and the slight overall advantage of APDS against general targets is well offset by the higher cost and availability making all ammo choices interesting and all have their niche (even if hollow point have the niche of being old, expensive but slightly easier to get than it's better competitor)

Stick and shock is in fact worse than Gel against living targets if the gun has an AP value, unless you're relying on the secondary electrical effect.

[Surukai]

You are right, the SnS is par with Gel rounds on AP0 weapons only. I missed that it didn't stack with AP like other ammo do. It is still an excellent SMG choice since SMGs lack AP.

The -1 on stuff debuff and the (stacking?) -5 Initative on targets makes it a good ammo and on anything SMG or smaller don't loose AP from SnS.

Most heavy pistols and Assault rifles see -2/3 to -1 damage from switching to SnS, possibly still a very good trade in for the obliteration of initiative that it brings with it.

Will be fun to use it now when SnS is "usable" and not on the "Retarded Design, instant ban"-shelf like it has been for the entire duration of SR4 in all my gaming groups.

[FuelDrop]

You are right, the SnS is par with Gel rounds on AP0 weapons only. I missed that it didn't stack with AP like other ammo do. It is still an excellent SMG choice since SMGs lack AP.

The -1 on stuff debuff and the (stacking?) -5 Initative on targets makes it a good ammo and on anything SMG or smaller don't loose AP from SnS.

Most heavy pistols and Assault rifles see -2/3 to -1 damage from switching to SnS, possibly still a very good trade in for the obliteration of initiative that it brings with it.

Will be fun to use it now when SnS is "usable" and not on the "Retarded Design, instant ban"-shelf like it has been for the entire duration of SR4 in all my gaming groups.

Remember that Gel helps knockdown, which robs foes of actions rather than just reducing their initiative. Not sure which is superior, honestly.

[KarmaInferno]

Magazine?

Sure, you got any Sports Illustrated?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)



-k

[RHat]

Remember that Gel helps knockdown, which robs foes of actions rather than just reducing their initiative. Not sure which is superior, honestly.

Add in the fact that SnS is highly effective against drones and vehicles while gel rounds aren't at all effective against those targets, and I'd say SnS comes out on top.

[Jaid]

Magazine?

in the future, they are called clips. sorry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(no really, there's actually a comment in the core book that says something to the effect of "look, it's become common slang now, everyone calls them clips, to the point where it's become official").

which is actually quite believable. in fact, realistically, apart from gun enthusiasts, that pretty much already has happened in the english language. i'm sure there will continue to be hold-outs, but the truth is, that's how the english language (and probably any living language, really) works. even those who don't like it and disagree with it know exactly what people mean when they say it.

[toturi]

in the future, they are called clips. sorry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(no really, there's actually a comment in the core book that says something to the effect of "look, it's become common slang now, everyone calls them clips, to the point where it's become official").

which is actually quite believable. in fact, realistically, apart from gun enthusiasts, that pretty much already has happened in the english language. i'm sure there will continue to be hold-outs, but the truth is, that's how the english language (and probably any living language, really) works. even those who don't like it and disagree with it know exactly what people mean when they say it.

Actually where I come from, most people will look puzzled if you say clip while most of the male population will understand when you say magazine.

[Voran]

Magazine?

Gun bullet holder thingie.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually where I come from, most people will look puzzled if you say clip while most of the male population will understand when you say magazine.

That is because most Males have been reading Magazines since they were 8 (when they find their Father's Stash)... How many kids read Clips (clippings) that have been snipped? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[thorya]

Magazine?

You mean a bullet repository?

Or a cartridge warehouse?

Or the ammo bin?

Or the death depot?

[Erik Baird]

You have to call it a clip because magazines are scarybadevil. Like "the shoulder thing that goes up."

[Remnar]

I twitch each time I hear or read "clip".

Then again, some people I know get kinda glaze eyed when I continually refer to them as detachable box magazines.

So mag works best for me.

[DMiller]

Shadowrun Definition:
CLIP: Contains Live Interchangeable Projectiles

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[DrZaius]

Actually where I come from, most people will look puzzled if you say clip while most of the male population will understand when you say magazine.

It's RAW toturi; surely you must now change your habits given that alone..

[Sendaz]

You have to call it a clip because magazines are scarybadevil. Like "the shoulder thing that goes up."

Actually it's to avoid confusion with the weaponized magazines you can find in SR now at select newsstands.

I am particularly fond of Ninja Origami Monthly, from dikoted pages with special premade crease lines for fold-up throwing stars , rice paper pull outs to practice your traceless walk to waxed pages for making everything from a breathing tube to an improvised blowgun for use with the tearout explosive spitwads (chew quickly and shoot!) on page 43 with even a fold out centrefold using wire meshed pages so you can fold it into a mini faraday cage for containing some small signalling devices, it's the perfect gift for your running buddies.

[Remnar]

I always have liked Demolition Quarterly. Not sure if the pages even open, I never get past the red button on the cover.

Makes for great distractions or doorways. Just remember that 10 second fuse really is only a 5 second fuse (if you're lucky) and plan accordingly.

[Draco18s]

Well done general analysis. IT shows a subtle difference between the two ammo types that show a good designed choice of ammo that isn't just "one is simply better in 99% of the cases" (like SnS in SR4 vs everything but mechanical targets).

You missed the part where METAL ARMOR doesn't help against SnS didn't you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SnS is fantastic against drones, as it hits them with a jolt of electricity they can't resist and causes them to be unable to act for several rounds. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You missed the part where METAL ARMOR doesn't help against SnS didn't you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SnS is fantastic against drones, as it hits them with a jolt of electricity they can't resist and causes them to be unable to act for several rounds. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Which is why GOOD drone design uses Ceramic Armor and not Metal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)