Assaults Rifles vs. Machine Guns Options

[paws2sky]

I'm developing an ex-mercenary character and I'm sketching out his gear wish list to get an idea how much cash I'll need.

I was all set to grab an Ingram Valiant when I got a bit of sticker shock. Looking for options, I noticed the Ares Alpha. Specifically, I noticed how much better it seems to be, overall. More firing modes, better base damage, one point worse AP, slightly smaller ammo capacity, about half the price, etc. I get that LMGs (and bigger) aren't really shadowrunner weapons, but is there any reason that they're this much worse than assault rifles?

Am I right in my analysis? Or am I overlooking some crucial advantage that machineguns have over assault rifles (ideally one that would matter to a 'runner)?

[Lobo0705]

The only thing a machine gun is better at than an assault rifle is that it has a higher ammo capacity, and thus is better at putting down suppressing fire.

Other than that, with double recoil and being much more expensive, they are a terrible option.

[Remnar]

I am sad they didn't get rid of the double recoil thing. Why on earth a weapon that fires the same round (by damage code) at the same rate of fire (by FA limit), AND is bigger/heavier, would fire with DOUBLE recoil is beyond my understanding or suspension of disbelief.

But, sadly, it's a quirk of Shadowrun.

[Jaid]

mostly range.

although i do tend to agree, the machine guns should be better than they are, they do have the advantage of a much greater extreme range.

edit: well that and potentially the fact that you get a heck of a lot more sheer variety of uses from the skill. i mean, automatics is a wonderful skill to have, but it doesn't cover grenade launchers or missile launchers, which are considerably better in 5th edition than in 4th.

[Dolanar]

so realistically, after the Arsenal book comes out & we likely end up with options for modding the type of ammo feed we use, I imagine Machine Guns will not be used much at all.

[Lobo0705]

While I will grant you they have a longer range, the Ingram Valiant's extreme range of 800 meters as opposed to the 550 meters of the Ares Alpha doesn't make up for the fact that it is twice as expensive, less accurate, generates far more recoil, does LESS damage, and doesn't have a grenade launcher.

I've played Shadowrun for literally decades, and can count on one hand the number of times when I was engaging targets at that range when it wasn't a job that was supposed to get done with a sniper rifle, rather than an LMG.

Your experience may be different, and that's just my opinion, for what its worth.

[quentra]

I once used an LMG to mow down the front of a nightclub in a Caracas, using a machine sprite to assist me in 'rigging' the servo-mounted LMG. Many people died. I was wearing Punisher body armour. Oh, good times. Good times.

[paws2sky]

Oh, wow. I hadn't even accounted for the double recoil.

Thanks for the replies!
-paws

[FuelDrop]

Machine guns excel at 2 things over assault rifles:
1) Being intimidating. It's a M*****F****** machine gun, and you're lugging it around! Most street-level opposition is going to suddenly remember an appointment and flee in the other direction.
2) Suppression fire. Massive ammunition capacity makes machine guns the go to weapon for pinning your enemy down.

Outside of that, assault rifles so far trump machine guns in most respects.

Personal recommendation: Cavalier arms Crockett EBR. Better damage, accuracy and penetration than an assault rifle OR a machine gun, better range than both. Weaknesses are a lack of full auto and low ammunition (20 in the clip/mag/ammunition thing). Oh, and no underbarrel grenade launcher.

[Remnar]

Machine guns excel at 2 things over assault rifles:
1) Being intimidating. It's a M*****F****** machine gun, and you're lugging it around! Most street-level opposition is going to suddenly remember an appointment and flee in the other direction.
2) Suppression fire. Massive ammunition capacity makes machine guns the go to weapon for pinning your enemy down.

Outside of that, assault rifles so far trump machine guns in most respects.

Personal recommendation: Cavalier arms Crockett EBR. Better damage, accuracy and penetration than an assault rifle OR a machine gun, better range than both. Weaknesses are a lack of full auto and low ammunition (20 in the clip/mag/ammunition thing). Oh, and no underbarrel grenade launcher.

Seconded, battle rifles rock. IRL I love my M1A and 7.6mm AR, I just imagine if I had gyro stabilization or the STR stat to use them recoil free.

[Umidori]

Back in SR4, I played a rather Pink Mohawk character with a modded Ingram White Knight, exploiting the massive factory-default RC to get full RC compensation for full bursts. (This in a Bug City Chicago setting, so visual subtlety wasn't as important as not making noise and stirring up the hive until you had to.)

Of course, that was back when you could boost your damage by +9DV with a narrow burst, allowing me to put out massive damage against big insect spirit nasties without suffering any recoil, and I could make proper use of the high ammo capacity to gun down multiple targets without stopping to reload - useful when facing swarms. No assault rifle could come close to that sort of performance.

Now, though... eh... they really missed an opportunity to make machine guns useful niche weapons. At least they made shotties attractive?

~Umi

[paws2sky]

Personal recommendation: Cavalier arms Crockett EBR. Better damage, accuracy and penetration than an assault rifle OR a machine gun, better range than both. Weaknesses are a lack of full auto and low ammunition (20 in the clip/mag/ammunition thing). Oh, and no underbarrel grenade launcher.

Hmm. The Crockett is an interesting option. Expensive though. I'll see if I can find the nuyen for it.

Now, though... eh... they really missed an opportunity to make machine guns useful niche weapons. At least they made shotties attractive?

Agree on both points.

I miss my old school CMDT, but the Enfield seems like a fair replacement. Shame there's not underbarrel grenade launcher accessory (seems like a strang thing to exclude).

[Lobo0705]

I'm assuming all the add-ons and customizations you could ask for will be in Run and Gun. (at least I would hope they are).

[kzt]

SR has always been very odd about guns. Pistols do virtually (if not exactly) the same damage as rifles, the crazy and ineffectual shotguns, belt-fed MGs pretty much pointless, etc. You either figure out what the 5 guns in the game are worth having or you have to redesign the entire system.

[DrZaius]

To answer the original question, machine guns (at least in Shadowrun) are best used as defensive weapons. They would also be effective as vehicle mounted weapons to remove the recoil penalty. Since Shadowrunners are rarely playing Defense, it makes them a weapon of the opposition (in this case, guards). Having a well mounted machine gun able to pin runners down with suppressive fire is extremely valuable to keeping Joe Rent-a-Cop alive until his high-threat backup arrives. We were messing around with suppressive fire in the last run we had in my game, and it is pretty nasty- especially the dice penalty to actions to those in the suppressed zone.

A quick example:

Joe Rent-A-Cop has been alerted there are Shadowrunners approaching his position, and is able to actually see them before they grease him. For the sake of argument, let's presume Joe is actually trained on the weapon he is currently using. Joe's Agility is 4, and his skill in Heavy Weapons is 4.

Joe is firing a belt-fed, tripod mounted Stoner-Ares M202. It has a base damage of 10P, AP -2. It also has a top-mounted Laser Sight, which he has activated the Wireless on. His machine gun is also firing Tracer rounds.

Joe's dicepool on his suppressive fire test is 9; his Agility of 4, Heavy Weapons of 4, +1 from the Wireless Laser Sight. His limit is the Accuracy of his Machine Gun, in this case is 7; 5 base from the gun, +1 from the laser sight, +1 from the tracer rounds.

Presuming 3 hits on his 9 dice, everyone in the suppressed zone (and immediately adjacent to it) takes a -3 to all actions.
Any character in the field (but not behind cover or prone) must make an Edge + Reaction (3) test, or take 10P, AP -2 damage. Bear in mind that roll is subject to the suppressed zone penalty of -3, making it no cakewalk. If Joe gets just a little lucky, that penalty (and threshold to avoid the damage) can become a -4, -5, -6: extremely handy for keeping runners pinned down.

Joe can do this *all day*. And as insane as it sounds, he can do this up to 1,200 meters away with no penalty. Presume he doesn't see the runners until they're at the edge of his medium range; that's still Long range (-3) to fight back with an assault rifle, plus the penalties from the suppressed zone.

Machine guns aren't great for runners, but they're solid as a choice for a GM to use.

[Emil Barr]

To answer the original question, machine guns (at least in Shadowrun) are best used as defensive weapons. They would also be effective as vehicle mounted weapons to remove the recoil penalty. Since Shadowrunners are rarely playing Defense, it makes them a weapon of the opposition (in this case, guards). Having a well mounted machine gun able to pin runners down with suppressive fire is extremely valuable to keeping Joe Rent-a-Cop alive until his high-threat backup arrives. We were messing around with suppressive fire in the last run we had in my game, and it is pretty nasty- especially the dice penalty to actions to those in the suppressed zone.

It seems weird a rentacop would be trained in heavy weapons, at least to me it does.

Its more likely to be attached to a drone, smartfire platform, or an autoturret.

[CanRay]

"Happiness is a belt-fed weapon and a target rich environment!!!"

"Who hired Kane?"

"Mungo. Apparently they are on each other's Speeddial."

[FuelDrop]

"Happiness is a belt-fed weapon and a target rich environment!!!"

"Who hired Kane?"

"Mungo. Apparently they are on each other's Speeddial."

That explains more than I care to think about.

[Slide]

At the moment the Ares alpha is better than most MGs at being an MG. I'm sure after the Arsenal equivalent is out you would be able to mod it to being belt fed. And those that say blah blah blah that's not realistic there is an M-16 mod kit out there that makes it a better SAW than the SAW is.

MGs should be horrifying, unfortunately right now they just aren't.

[kzt]

MGs should be horrifying, unfortunately right now they just aren't.

Long guns in general should be horrifying compared to pistols too.

[DeathStrobe]

It seems weird a rentacop would be trained in heavy weapons, at least to me it does.

Its more likely to be attached to a drone, smartfire platform, or an autoturret.

Skill softs. Rent-a-cop doesn't know jack, but that doesn't mean the corp didn't stuff him with a few augs to put him in debt to the corp while allowing him to do his job better.

[Jaid]

Skill softs. Rent-a-cop doesn't know jack, but that doesn't mean the corp didn't stuff him with a few augs to put him in debt to the corp while allowing him to do his job better.

and suddenly mr rent-a-cop's corpse is worth nigh on a hundred grand instead of fifty bucks (of the UCAS variety). smart thinking rent-a-cop corporation. turn your employees into a gigantic payday for any group of gangers looking to score big.

[kzt]

To paraphrase Bill Gates from Simpsons: "How do you think we became a rich corporation? Do you think we PAID for that skill soft?"

[binarywraith]

To paraphrase Bill Gates from Simpsons: "How do you think we became a rich corporation? Do you think we PAID for that skill soft?"

Nah, but my fence'll sure pay me for it!

[Jaid]

Nah, but my fence'll sure pay me for it!

exactly. it doesn't matter if the security corp payed full price or not. the simple fact is, it's worth that much to sell to everyone else (well, everyone else who isn't a megacorp anyways). obviously, you won't get full price for it (although you're getting full value if you wanted a set of skillwires yourself), but it still sells for quite a bit.

then add in the fact that it's a rent-a-cop, and can reasonably expect to be making the sort of people who are low on morals angry (ie the sort of people who are reasonably likely to kill you for the cyberware you've got implanted) on a semi-regular basis, well... i for one wouldn't want to be the manager who made that choice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(although that said, i wouldn't take this sort of thing to a generic fence... this is the sort of thing that you really want an organlegger contact for).