[X] My Assistant

[Shinobi Killfist]

so as a matter of fact, yes, if the guy who installed your cyberware is willing to install more cyberware into you in exchange for money, then that guy is a contact.

Thats why they hand out level 1 contacts like candy in missions adventures.

[RHat]

and no, it's pretty obvious that skillwires have indeed been retconned. the 4th edition version needed no skilljack. all you needed to run a knowsoft was a DNI from any source. not so in 5th. we can safely say that the devs looked at 4th edition skillwires and decided that no, they don't work like that anymore.

furthermore, it is *extremely* obvious that skillwires got retconned, because we know *exactly* what old skillwires are like; exactly like the current ones, only not wireless-enabled. not sort of like the current ones, but needing different pieces of equipment to function, and an order of magnitude cheaper. SR4 has pretty clearly had it's augmentation costs errated out of existence.

... You're gonna need to back that up. At present, SR5's skillwire+skilljack allows the same skillsofts as SR4's skillwires, making it just seem like the ones they can successfully implant in SR5 need the extra hardware to get it running properly, with the wireless version being strictly superior to SR4's (more running skillsofts). Or do you think they should be publishing the versions that put you at risk for the whole Sybil thing, also known as the versions that any runner would have had ripped out and replaced ASAP?

[Jaid]

if there is any significant danger that a person with the old skillwires is going to go haywire and destroy everything, do you think they're still going to be around in anyone's workplace? really? i mean, who's going to pay to have the ticking time bomb in their factory? who the hell is going to be *insane* enough to hand them a heavy machine gun and a skillsoft on how to use heavy weapons ranging from machine guns to grenade launchers to rocket launchers to assault cannons?

basically, if it leaves you particularly susceptible to something significantly bad, then they would be rare. because most of them would have been killed by angry mobs, by now.

turns out, having an exceptionally high chance of suddenly becoming a danger to everyone with no warning: does not increase your life expectancy.

[RHat]

if there is any significant danger that a person with the old skillwires is going to go haywire and destroy everything, do you think they're still going to be around in anyone's workplace? really? i mean, who's going to pay to have the ticking time bomb in their factory? who the hell is going to be *insane* enough to hand them a heavy machine gun and a skillsoft on how to use heavy weapons ranging from machine guns to grenade launchers to rocket launchers to assault cannons?

basically, if it leaves you particularly susceptible to something significantly bad, then they would be rare. because most of them would have been killed by angry mobs, by now.

turns out, having an exceptionally high chance of suddenly becoming a danger to everyone with no warning: does not increase your life expectancy.

That's not the presentation of pretty much any case of Sybil - it's far, far, far more subtle than that. And while the shadows know about it and the upper echelons know about it, so far as I know that's it, so no angry mobs. And it's somewhat targeted from what I hear (still need to read Splintered States), so Joe Wageslave isn't at as much risk as Joe Shadowrunner.

[Jaid]

regardless, this still makes the ridiculous assumptions that:

a) those skillwires are somehow not viewed as being even remotely close to the same value for no apparent reason.
b) those skillwires didn't actually get retconned from having wildly different prices and hardware needs.
c) those skillwires don't already have actual rules stating they cost runners the same amount to obtain in the core book.

yes, we could come up with some ridiculous and convoluted explanation for why skillwires, and nothing else, suddenly became an order of magnitude more expensive with nobody in the whole world bothering to question why, but that just sounds silly and contrived.

the logical conclusion is that, just like everything else that went through significant changes in SR5 without getting any specific mentions of the transition occuring, it was always like that. why does nobody want to know why skillwires went up to 20 times their old price? because they didn't. as far as SR5 is concerned, they were never 2,000 nuyen per rating point.

that's the simple and logical explanation. it's ridiculous to presume that we're supposed to somehow infer some convoluted chain of "logic" that explains the change, and yet the only even remote indication of this logic chain we're supposed to follow in the book is a brief mention that something related to nanotechnology happened a while ago in the description of an assault rifle.

[Shemhazai]

edit: oh, and by definition, if someone is willing to do business with you, well... here's the description of a loyalty 1 contact:

"Just Biz. The relationship is purely mercenary, based solely on economics. The
people involved may not even like each other, and they won’t offer any sort of
preferential treatment."

so as a matter of fact, yes, if the guy who installed your cyberware is willing to install more cyberware into you in exchange for money, then that guy is a contact.

I don't believe that having done business in the past is sufficient. Otherwise every character would have scores of contacts collected throughout their lives.

[RHat]

regardless, this still makes the ridiculous assumptions that:

a) those skillwires are somehow not viewed as being even remotely close to the same value for no apparent reason.
b) those skillwires didn't actually get retconned from having wildly different prices and hardware needs.
c) those skillwires don't already have actual rules stating they cost runners the same amount to obtain in the core book.

yes, we could come up with some ridiculous and convoluted explanation for why skillwires, and nothing else, suddenly became an order of magnitude more expensive with nobody in the whole world bothering to question why, but that just sounds silly and contrived.

the logical conclusion is that, just like everything else that went through significant changes in SR5 without getting any specific mentions of the transition occuring, it was always like that. why does nobody want to know why skillwires went up to 20 times their old price? because they didn't. as far as SR5 is concerned, they were never 2,000 nuyen per rating point.

that's the simple and logical explanation. it's ridiculous to presume that we're supposed to somehow infer some convoluted chain of "logic" that explains the change, and yet the only even remote indication of this logic chain we're supposed to follow in the book is a brief mention that something related to nanotechnology happened a while ago in the description of an assault rifle.

Skillwires aren't the only thing that became a hell of a lot more expensive; the combination of nagnarok and the massive economic troubles are the explanation offered by (as I recall) Bull. Old-style skillwires are not available in the book, the nanend-times accounts for the hardware changes...

It is not logical to say "there is no explanation" when explanations are readily available.

[Epicedion]

yes, we could come up with some ridiculous and convoluted explanation for why skillwires, and nothing else, suddenly became an order of magnitude more expensive with nobody in the whole world bothering to question why, but that just sounds silly and contrived.

Or you could ignore the fact that SR4 made skillwires an order of magnitude cheaper for no apparent reason.

[phlapjack77]

No., it is not the case that either all changes are retcons or no changes are retcons. There's a shit-tonne of middle ground. Skillwires are in that middle ground, as is most gear. The retconned gear is only a few examples - specifically things where their old dice pool bonus function is now new and shiny funtionality that comes with the new Matrix, and their new Limit bonus is now the function they've always had. That's pretty much the ONLY gear retcon. Things like price changes are trivial to explain in-universe between the massive economic issues and nanogeddon.

That's your position, which I think isn't at all supported by the book/fluff/common sense. You posit that "old-versions" (SR4) of gear exists, yet any time it's brought up about any piece of gear, the answer is always "never existed in this timeline" (SR5). Saying "nano!" for any explanation you want is not a reasonable explanation but rather a cop-out.

Even if we assume that the world as a whole has to be retconned, you can still say that that piece of gear that "wasn't retconned" was retconned but it now functions similarly to the pre-retconned version.

That makes...no sense. For this discussion anyway.

Or you could ignore the fact that SR4 made skillwires an order of magnitude cheaper for no apparent reason.

You could, but then you'd still be stuck with the dilemma that skillwires are really, really expensive, and it doesn't make sense that the fluff says corps like to install skillwires rather than train their workers.

And as an aside, coming up with new terms whenever I mention the nanotech thing is fun. Wonder how long I can keep it up.

1. nanogeddon
2. nanend-times

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't believe that having done business in the past is sufficient. Otherwise every character would have scores of contacts collected throughout their lives.

You don't? I (personally) have business cards (and therefore contacts) that number in the thousands. ALL of them would be considered as Contacts in Shadowrun (and probably all of them would be Loyalty 1 - Just Business). Yes, Every Shadowrunner should eventually have a list of Contacts that is pretty impressive. Why would that be a problem?

[Sendaz]

You also have to consider that a lot of those contacts shift over time. Some retire, some die etc....

Trying to constantly juggle all of that in the game would be a lot of tracking, but when you need to find that just right piece of equipment, it's good to know people....

But YMMV, some runners stick to just one area/region and do not really associate outside their immediate comfort zone, relying on the fixer to do the middlemanning.

[Sendaz]

And as an aside, coming up with new terms whenever I mention the nanotech thing is fun. Wonder how long I can keep it up.

Nanomanagement: Think Micromanagement but with even more invasiveness by your boss thanks to technology. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You also have to consider that a lot of those contacts shift over time. Some retire, some die etc....

Trying to constantly juggle all of that in the game would be a lot of tracking, but when you need to find that just right piece of equipment, it's good to know people....

But YMMV, some runners stick to just one area/region and do not really associate outside their immediate comfort zone, relying on the fixer to do the middlemanning.

Indeed... In game, my characters do tend to spend time juggling their contacts... As you say... they come and they go.

[Sendaz]

Indeed... In game, my characters do tend to spend time juggling their contacts... As you say... they come and they go.

Indeed, one of GMs I knew would let players run a some of the other player's Contact NPCs, not all of them and never their own.

Each Contact had their own Card which had cues, tips and guidelines of what they would/wouldn't do (so no the contact doesn't just hand out stuff for free) and so long as you stayed within those limits you got to play it up a bit and took some of the burden off the GM, who still had final say on any NPC action and could take back a Card if necessary/abused, and added some fun.

[Slithery D]

I don't believe that having done business in the past is sufficient. Otherwise every character would have scores of contacts collected throughout their lives.

A level 1 contact vs. not a contact is the difference between recognizing the number on your caller ID (but not particularly caring) vs. a walk in for new business. For the level 1 contact you'll let him use your private line to leave a message, and you'll get back to him if/when convenient, but he gets the same treatment as the guy off the street. The guy who isn't a contact just has to try a little harder to make the connection.

[RHat]

That's your position, which I think isn't at all supported by the book/fluff/common sense. You posit that "old-versions" (SR4) of gear exists, yet any time it's brought up about any piece of gear, the answer is always "never existed in this timeline" (SR5). Saying "nano!" for any explanation you want is not a reasonable explanation but rather a cop-out.

That and the ensuing economic problems are the explanation that has been offered. And you can't say that the given answer is always "never existed" when we're discussing a piece of gear where this isn't the case. Skillwires have a different and superior explanation for their changes, as do the general changes to 'ware pricing (in that we've been told that those two factors are what have made all these costs go up). Where are SR4's skillwires now? Sitting useless in a warehouse until they can actually be implanted again.

[Emil Barr]

That and the ensuing economic problems are the explanation that has been offered. And you can't say that the given answer is always "never existed" when we're discussing a piece of gear where this isn't the case. Skillwires have a different and superior explanation for their changes, as do the general changes to 'ware pricing (in that we've been told that those two factors are what have made all these costs go up). Where are SR4's skillwires now? Sitting useless in a warehouse until they can actually be implanted again.

That mean I can plan a run and steal them all? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Shouldnt I be able to buy retro ware used?

[RHat]

That mean I can plan a run and steal them all? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Shouldnt I be able to buy retro ware used?

Two things:

1) They cannot implant it at present. So sure, still it all - but at the moment it is worthless.
2) If you could get it implanted, you'd be exposing yourself to the Sybil virus; nobody wants to do that.

[Shinobi Killfist]

You could, but then you'd still be stuck with the dilemma that skillwires are really, really expensive, and it doesn't make sense that the fluff says corps like to install skillwires rather than train their workers.

Training people is ridiculously expensive, skill wires are still a steal on the front. 120,000 and you can make a worker a professional in a wide range of fields, it would cost that much or more to train him normally in just one field. While for corps this would be true anyway, but the main mechanical problem with skillwires is the programs cost too much on top of a high cost for implantation. Sure go ahead make wires 6 cost 120,000 hell double that. Just make the programs dirt cheap. Software is too easily copied/stolen making the cost prohibitive makes very little world sense and with the high cost of the ware I don't think makes much game mechanic sense.

[Sendaz]

Training people is ridiculously expensive, skill wires are still a steal on the front. 120,000 and you can make a worker a professional in a wide range of fields, it would cost that much or more to train him normally in just one field. While for corps this would be true anyway, but the main mechanical problem with skillwires is the programs cost too much on top of a high cost for implantation. Sure go ahead make wires 6 cost 120,000 hell double that. Just make the programs dirt cheap. Software is too easily copied/stolen making the cost prohibitive makes very little world sense and with the high cost of the ware I don't think makes much game mechanic sense.

It is a good point. Once you have those skillwires in you can then adapt the subject to any training you like.

The cost of the programs is absurdly high, especially when you figure they are probably just burning multi-copies for the download and using that.

Now this does raise a good point, I remember there was discussion about how a team broke into a facility and the defending spider basically downloading combat op specs into the janitors, turning them into short lived combat monsters.


So is there a ShadowSkillNet out there somewhere offering black market skill downloads for rapid use. Because that could be an interesting find, even if you always run the risk of a infected download.

If the corps are able to turn janitors into combat monkeys in seconds, why shouldn't the decker/face/other traditional low to mid lvl combat type get the same option when needed?

What's good for the cybergoose is good for the cybergander. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Wireless Bonus: access to almost any active skill anytime.

[phlapjack77]

Training people is ridiculously expensive, skill wires are still a steal on the front. 120,000 and you can make a worker a professional in a wide range of fields, it would cost that much or more to train him normally in just one field. While for corps this would be true anyway, but the main mechanical problem with skillwires is the programs cost too much on top of a high cost for implantation. Sure go ahead make wires 6 cost 120,000 hell double that. Just make the programs dirt cheap. Software is too easily copied/stolen making the cost prohibitive makes very little world sense and with the high cost of the ware I don't think makes much game mechanic sense.

Now this does raise a good point, I remember there was discussion about how a team broke into a facility and the defending spider basically downloading combat op specs into the janitors, turning them into short lived combat monsters.

Yeah, this is a good point. I think everyone finds that scene in The Matrix awesome, where Trinity needs to be able to fly a chopper, and Tank uploads the skill to her in seconds. It would be cool to have this available to PCs and "important" NPCs, but probably not mooks (unless they work for a major corp and are secretly part of some plan, as you posted above).

On the gripping hand, maybe the skilled workers vs. skillwired workers point is moot, as for most situations being discussed a corp would probably have invested in a drone instead.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It is a good point. Once you have those skillwires in you can then adapt the subject to any training you like.

The cost of the programs is absurdly high, especially when you figure they are probably just burning multi-copies for the download and using that.

Now this does raise a good point, I remember there was discussion about how a team broke into a facility and the defending spider basically downloading combat op specs into the janitors, turning them into short lived combat monsters.


So is there a ShadowSkillNet out there somewhere offering black market skill downloads for rapid use. Because that could be an interesting find, even if you always run the risk of a infected download.

If the corps are able to turn janitors into combat monkeys in seconds, why shouldn't the decker/face/other traditional low to mid lvl combat type get the same option when needed?

What's good for the cybergoose is good for the cybergander. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Wireless Bonus: access to almost any active skill anytime.

While training is expensive and skillwires are cheap in comparison, janitors seem a bit of a stretch to me. They are pretty much non-skilled employees. Its a tough job but not because vacuuming is a complex skill. Are there tricks of the trade, sure. Just not enough of them to justify skillwires IMO.

phlapjack77 has a good point though, a lot of jobs would be given to drones with an autosoft. If it does not require any real decision making process its probably done by a drone. Besides a freaking robot stole my job and now I'm sinless is awesome dystopia.

[RHat]

While training is expensive and skillwires are cheap in comparison, janitors seem a bit of a stretch to me. They are pretty much non-skilled employees. Its a tough job but not because vacuuming is a complex skill. Are there tricks of the trade, sure. Just not enough of them to justify skillwires IMO.

Unless you're Horizon, in which case that janitor might have been helping out in accounting the week before, manufacturing the week before that, and so on.

[Emil Barr]

Unless you're Horizon, in which case that janitor might have been helping out in accounting the week before, manufacturing the week before that, and so on.

If it werent for the fact you dont actually have those skills and theyre only in you to abued you for profit, skillwires would be a marxist dream come true!

[Remnar]

Unless you're Horizon, in which case that janitor might have been helping out in accounting the week before, manufacturing the week before that, and so on.

That's how I'd see them making sense. Its not the training of ONE skill that makes them worthwhile, but you can have an employee who can do ANY skilled job you need at the drop of a dime. That's pretty darned handy and makes your workforce extremely adapatable.

Sec Guards, on the other had, make less sense. You'll probably want them to be doing that most of the time and you can probably train them to shoot easier/cheaper. Then again, some of the stories I've heard from Police friends ... some people are just untrainable with firearms.