[X] My Assistant

[Emil Barr]

Do you? Saying that it is absurd does not make it so. If doing some particular thing depends on something as insanely powerful as the Matrix, it's entirely conceivable that it could not be replicated without it, or at the very least not replicated within the constraints of something that can actually be produced, sold, and used. Throwning R&D money and engineers at a problem doesn't automatically mean it can be solved.

It takes near limitless computing power to make a collapsable baton extend as a free action?

[Tanegar]

It takes near limitless computing power to make a collapsable baton extend as a free action?

This. Smash, RHat, are you paying attention? This! THIS! IN GREAT CTHULHU'S UNHOLY NAME, THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS!!!
The bonuses given absolutely do not "depend" on the Matrix. This was gone over in detail in several earlier threads; feel free to search the forum for "wireless bonus." 90% of the bonuses could easily be gained by simply getting two pieces of gear to talk directly to each other, or by some other easily feasible workaround. They don't need the Matrix.

[Smash]

Do try not to put words in my mouth. I'm advocating that everyone should suck at combat unless they approach combat in a way that makes sense. If you go into combat with your grenade launcher and cybereyes broadcasting to everyone within a block's radius, you are an idiot and you deserve to have those things bricked. That is a feature of the setting. Any approach to combat which disregards that feature will and should get you killed.

But what if going into combat with your eyes and grenade launcher broadcasting gives you the edge to take out your opponents that bit quicker so they end up shooting at you less? Less bullets vs slight chance of being hacked seems like a no-brainer to me. If the bonuses don't achieve this then we're in agreement, it is a no brainer to have your wireless off, but I'd just like to see it tackled so that the tradeoff is genuine. There's my problem with the way you are tackling this problem right there. You can't logic yourself to a conclusion that wireless is 'dumb' when based on the way the game works you consider nerds occasionally attempting to hack you stuff much more of a threat that grizzled veterans firing fully-automatic machine guns at you.

The wireless bonuses, not merely the specific bonuses listed but the very concept of the bonuses, rests on an assumption that is patently absurd; namely, that teams of engineers with multi-billion-nuyen R&D budgets could not find a way to replicate the "bonus" functionality without exposing the device to Matrix attack. This is what I mean when I say that it breaks the Sixth World's self-consistency: the world has been established as populated by people who are smart and good at their jobs, and this mechanic assumes that the world is populated by people who are stupid and suck at their jobs.

On this point all I can do is disagree. There's no reason for the game to use today's real world internet constraints to restrict it's fantastical nature of an alternative future with dragons and magic. Can't we just assume that it's like wireless but you know, different?

[Smash]

It takes near limitless computing power to make a collapsable baton extend as a free action?

Is this really a great example of why wireless is stupid? My baton has wireless so that I can potentially use a simple mental or voice command to extend the baton as opposed to using the ready weapon command?. Makes sense to me. Admittedly the way that is achieved could possible be more complicated than that (do I need a a direct link to the comlink, trodes to make this work?). We could have 15 rules and micro-managed cyber/device interactions to achieve this or we could just suspend disbelief and and say wireless on equals free action.

[Dolanar]

I attach my gun to the Matrix, I have 18 dice to shoot you, first combat of a long run. IS that 2 extra dice worth possibly losing your primary weapon for the rest of the run. Sure, you can TRY to buy another one in a hurry, or you can find someone who is willing to try to fix your weapon. But really, you could avoid all of that by sacrificing 2 dice.

There are literally only 3-4 pieces I can think of that benefit from being on the Matrix permanently, Optical devices to get the +4 or so dice to perception tests (though you can still log them in specifically for "Observe in detail" uses) & the Reaction boosting Cyberware which give their full benefits only when connected to each other & to the Matrix.

[binarywraith]

Is this really a great example of why wireless is stupid? My baton has wireless so that I can potentially use a simple mental or voice command to extend the baton as opposed to using the ready weapon command?. Makes sense to me. Admittedly the way that is achieved could possible be more complicated than that (do I need a a direct link to the comlink, trodes to make this work?). We could have 15 rules and micro-managed cyber/device interactions to achieve this or we could just suspend disbelief and and say wireless on equals free action.

Twenty years ago, in-game, you could already mentally trigger weapon functions. Via a smartlink system, and induction pads.


Which were not hackable.


And were a free action.



The wireless changes fail at a simple glance because they actually force the setting to regress technologically to fit today's idea of what is workable, rather than staying plausible to the setting's established technologies.

[kzt]

rests on an assumption that is patently absurd; namely, that teams of engineers with multi-billion-nuyen R&D budgets could not find a way to replicate the "bonus" functionality without exposing the device to Matrix attack. This is what I mean when I say that it breaks the Sixth World's self-consistency: the world has been established as populated by people who are smart and good at their jobs, and this mechanic assumes that the world is populated by people who are stupid and suck at their jobs.

Oh, have you ever heard of this thing called "backups"? It's what is used by competent computer operations personnel so that some sort a accident that results in corrupting of your on-line computer system can be fairly easily repaired. Like say some sort of crazed fanatics who intend to bring down the world? For the second time?

No, it's pretty clear that in Shadowrun governments and mega-corporations only hire morons and fools to run their computer operations. Who then spent the backup tape budget on hookers and blow. Which is what you had this enormous data loss across the entire world.

[kzt]

But what if going into combat with your eyes and grenade launcher broadcasting gives you the edge to take out your opponents that bit quicker so they end up shooting at you less?

Dude, if you are broadcasting I can spot you at the radio line of sight. Radio waves go through walls, floors and doors. So you'll be DEAD before you ever see me. I doubt that increase the chance that you'll win the fight.

[binarywraith]

No, it's pretty clear that in Shadowrun governments and mega-corporations only hire morons and fools to run their computer operations. Who then spent the backup tape budget on hookers and blow. Which is what you had this enormous data loss across the entire world.

Especially since one of the important points on the Shadowrun time line was when they perfected optical chips that were not effected by EMP for storage.

You know, in 2002, of that timeline.

Some 62 years before Winternight's BS.

Don't worry, we're used to the dev team not knowing their own setting.

[RHat]

This. Smash, RHat, are you paying attention? This! THIS! IN GREAT CTHULHU'S UNHOLY NAME, THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS!!!
The bonuses given absolutely do not "depend" on the Matrix. This was gone over in detail in several earlier threads; feel free to search the forum for "wireless bonus." 90% of the bonuses could easily be gained by simply getting two pieces of gear to talk directly to each other, or by some other easily feasible workaround. They don't need the Matrix.

It takes near limitless computing power to make a collapsable baton extend as a free action?

I've never suggested that the present bonuses are great implementation. They're not. They don't present as much of a benefit as they should, and they don't provide anything approaching a sufficient explanation. A poor implementation, however, tells you absolutely nothing about the concept behind it.

Dude, if you are broadcasting I can spot you at the radio line of sight. Radio waves go through walls, floors and doors. So you'll be DEAD before you ever see me. I doubt that increase the chance that you'll win the fight.

And if you run silent behind something with a Sleaze attribute, detecting you gets a lot harder (And there really need to be other ways to get harder to spot). Additionally, you can only do that at 100m out, which is a closer range than a lot of firefights might be occurring at.

[Epicedion]

Oh, have you ever heard of this thing called "backups"? It's what is used by competent computer operations personnel so that some sort a accident that results in corrupting of your on-line computer system can be fairly easily repaired. Like say some sort of crazed fanatics who intend to bring down the world? For the second time?

No, it's pretty clear that in Shadowrun governments and mega-corporations only hire morons and fools to run their computer operations. Who then spent the backup tape budget on hookers and blow. Which is what you had this enormous data loss across the entire world.

Tape backups? Don't be absurd. The cost of disk vs tape in the real world has been shifting vastly in favor of disk. In the Shadowrun future, where Megapulses are an aggregate of nonlinear storage, memory, and distributed processing, the whole concept of tape backups has to break down.

You cannot overlay the real world on top of Shadowrun and decide what is reasonable and what is unreasonable, because the technology is vastly different than what we can expect in the future of the real world.

[kzt]

Tape backups? Don't be absurd. The cost of disk vs tape in the real world has been shifting vastly in favor of disk. In the Shadowrun future, where Megapulses are an aggregate of nonlinear storage, memory, and distributed processing, the whole concept of tape backups has to break down.

You cannot overlay the real world on top of Shadowrun and decide what is reasonable and what is unreasonable, because the technology is vastly different than what we can expect in the future of the real world.

In your future nobody ever makes mistakes or has hardware fail?
Wow, must make games kind of tough for the players having to deal with perfectly designed defenses run by completely competent people (because HR is perfect too) who are always fully alert and never make mistakes.

[Sendaz]

Ok tape may have been a bad choice as a storage medium, but there would be some sort of backup of essential systems on either optical storage or hard drives that are then stored in a secure/shielded area for going back to if there was a problem.

Would you have everything? Probably not, like you said there is a huge amount out there, but certainly some form and level of back up for key components continues to be used.

[Sendaz]

(size reduced from original)
IN GREAT CTHULHU'S UNHOLY NAME, THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS!!!

If you are invoking the Big C, it's better in Green (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[RHat]

Ok tape may have been a bad choice as a storage medium, but there would be some sort of backup of essential systems on either optical storage or hard drives that are then stored in a secure/shielded area for going back to if there was a problem.

Would you have everything? Probably not, like you said there is a huge amount out there, but certainly some form and level of back up for key components continues to be used.

Wasn't part of the issue catastrophic hardware failure? And for that matter, what happens if the Crash virus lay dormant for a while, and was thus in the backups?

[Tanegar]

And if you run silent behind something with a Sleaze attribute, detecting you gets a lot harder (And there really need to be other ways to get harder to spot). Additionally, you can only do that at 100m out, which is a closer range than a lot of firefights might be occurring at.

Two points:

1) If you're running silent, you're not connected to the Matrix. That's what "running silent" means: no transmissions.

2) Been in many firefights, have you? 100 meters is just over 109 yards. At that range, what you have isn't a firefight so much as two groups of guys trying to suppress each other. Unless you have a sniper, 100m is beyond the effective engagement range for small arms.

[Emil Barr]

Two points:

1) If you're running silent, you're not connected to the Matrix. That's what "running silent" means: no transmissions.

2) Been in many firefights, have you? 100 meters is just over 109 yards. At that range, what you have isn't a firefight so much as two groups of guys trying to suppress each other. Unless you have a sniper, 100m is beyond the effective engagement range for small arms.

Pretty sure they meant hidden mode.

[binarywraith]

2) Been in many firefights, have you? 100 meters is just over 109 yards. At that range, what you have isn't a firefight so much as two groups of guys trying to suppress each other. Unless you have a sniper, 100m is beyond the effective engagement range for small arms.

The hell are you talking about? 100 meters is barely a third of the qualification ranges used for the M4 carbine. It's well within easy iron sight range, even, because a human sized target at that range is twice the width of the front sight post.

It's out of effective engagement range for most pistols (~50m), maybe, but anything carbine length can reach out to 300m, and that's what the Army trains for.

Hell, 5.56 NATO is still -rising- out to 175 meters out of an M4. Any true battle rifle firing a full rifle cartridge instead of an intermediate one like an AR is going to have a hell of a lot more effective range than that.


Edit : Using Shadowrun's own range tables (SR5) 100m is only Medium range for assault rifles!

[Chinane]

Edit : Using Shadowrun's own range tables (SR5) 100m is only Medium range for assault rifles!

And yet for most 'normal' shadowruns that will be way out of engagement range.

[Tanegar]

There's a big difference between shooting targets on a range and shooting at actual people who take cover and shoot back. At a hundred meters, are you actually shooting to hit somebody, or are you shooting to keep their heads down?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There's a big difference between shooting targets on a range and shooting at actual people who take cover and shoot back. At a hundred meters, are you actually shooting to hit somebody, or are you shooting to keep their heads down?

In the Corps, at that Range, I was shooting to hit people.

[RHat]

Two points:

1) If you're running silent, you're not connected to the Matrix. That's what "running silent" means: no transmissions.

2) Been in many firefights, have you? 100 meters is just over 109 yards. At that range, what you have isn't a firefight so much as two groups of guys trying to suppress each other. Unless you have a sniper, 100m is beyond the effective engagement range for small arms.

1) As it applies to SR5, that is not what that means - in SR5, a different definition is provided for "running silent". Instead, let's call what you refer to as "running dark".

2) In matters like these, I rely on information I get from people who ARE in a position to know.

[Dolanar]

I would agree in most cases Runners will be using shorter ranges, but that is more because there is not often a football field between buildings unless you're on the street. But as well, if you have the shot at 100M you take it. Besides, realistically I'm sure most of us are using some form of optics which will make that shot much easier.

[Erik Baird]

If someone can't hit a human target at 100 meters using iron sights on a rifle, they either aren't trying or need to zero.

[Remnar]

I've taken running deer, standing unsupported, at 100 yards on several occasions with iron sights. I tend to like to stay inside 70 with irons, but 100 isn't some massive, wonderous shot. Heck even at that if I miss the 8-12 inch "kill zone" on a broadside target I get pretty ornery at myself.

BTW running deer through woods in fall is pretty darned good camoflague as well, probably pretty similar.

'course, now-a-days I gotta wear glasses to do it, stupid eyes.