[X] My Assistant

[Epicedion]

1) Running Silent does not disable wireless bonuses. Could be wrong but wireless bonuses happen aslong as you maintain a connection, and running silent doesn't disable a connection, it just imposes a penaly on matrix actions, which I would think your wireless reflexes don't care about.

Correct. Running silent just means you have to be looked for, and no longer automatically pop up when within 100m.

2) If a decker does notice silent running icons, this requires him to be looking and then succeed, he then has to randomly pick which one he's going to look at with a perception check.

Also correct.

3) Everyone should pack a dozen cheap devices, anything wireless, and put them on running silent to play shell games with enemy deckers?

Bad idea. Cheap device = crap attributes. When the local matrix security does a sweep and notices 30 new hidden icons, and randomly selects a Stealth Tag, he'll be able to easily run Trace User to locate you and your whole team.

4) Is running silent even suspicoius? In a world FULL of icons is it unreasonable plenty of people would activate it on a number of things just so their AR didn't get bombarded when they went into the kitchen in the morning?

Depends on what's silent, I'd guess. In some places running with your commlink silent is illegal. I imagine that running your pistol silent without a permit to carry it concealed is illegal.

Note that a lot of laws exist as secondary offenses to increase the severity of an actual crime. So you may not get hassled for running silent some days, but if you knock over a liquor store with all your gear running silent, it probably makes things worse.

[binarywraith]

That said saying the most having your comms hacked would do is let the enemy learn your plans, that's a pretty big deal. You get ambushed and die. That's certainly a big consequence, regardless of how huge the benefit being able to communicate is (there's always the drilled, run silent, clockwork style op) compared to wireless bonuses, so likelyhood of occurance has to be a factor. So just how likely is getting bricked? I won't argue that currently risk of bricking versus wireless bonuses is a worthwhile trade-off, but "the mere possibilty" is not the threshold of safety shadowrunners operate on. It is dangerous work. So what is an acceptable risk/reward threshold? Should wireless bonuses be better?

Yes, but you can counter this easily by having everyone know the op plan and not need to chatter about it. The only prudence you can really exercise when it comes to wireless is turning it off.

[DuckEggBlue Omeg...]

You can't just go down to the corner store and ask the clerk for the iPhone without all the corporate spyware on it. Apple doesn't care that it makes you vulnerable. Not even a little bit.

In ShadowRun, corporations hire criminals to undermine their rivals. Going out and bricking all the new iPhones would be pretty disastrous for 2075 Apple.

Why on earth would they even give you the option to turn the spying off? If you want to talk about absurd, then the idea that you could just turn it off is the absurdity.

People jailbreak devices now. As said, shadowrunners are criminals who want security and have access to the skills to do that sort of thing, they aren't about to stop doing it.

Otherwise you make some good, if overstated, points.

The point being, we are already getting to the point where just turning it off is unthinkable insanity. In 2075, it is ludicrous to think that your toaster would be anything more than a brick without accessing god knows how many APIs for applications hosted elsewhere.

Low end goods will exsist aslong as exploited lower classes do.

[Erik Baird]

I don't understand what is so hard about this.

Everything can be accessed from the matrix. A wireless bonus isn't required to hack the device. It is like this because that is just how everything is manufactured in 2075, right down the chips in batons and RFID tags on paper hats worn by Stuffershack employees. It is this way because the corps want it this way. Just like Google, Facebook, NSA, and everyone else with power want to see everything you do, even if only in aggregate. You can't just go down to the corner store and ask the clerk for the iPhone without all the corporate spyware on it. Apple doesn't care that it makes you vulnerable. Not even a little bit. Why on earth would they even give you the option to turn the spying off? If you want to talk about absurd, then the idea that you could just turn it off is the absurdity.

Mostly, it's hard because there's no point. What's the point in having electronics in a glorified stick? RFID in a disposable paper hat? What about all those folks living on the edge of civilization who can't even get Matrix access and make do with old tech because it works and it's something they already have? While the corporate masses might be willing to trade security for perceived convenience (like the RFID wallets currently in use), those who make their living evading notice are not going to take those risks if they have more than two functioning brain cells to rub together. Tech that ends up on the black market is going to get scrubbed; not only for the benefit of the buyer, but also so it doesn't get tracked back to the seller and his sources.

Wireless bonuses are just that, bonuses. They make noise rating relevant to more than just the hacker. The street samurai in the high noise zone now can't move as fast and his smartgun link isn't working as well.

What's the point of having the system use a wireless link? It is faster, more secure, and more sensible to use a direct neural connection for many systems, especially anything that needs to implanted anyways like smartgun links, wired reflexes, VCRs, chipjacks and connected skillwire implants, cybereyes and implanted subsystems, etc.

Turning off devices look like a rule added by a group of authors throwing the same sort of hissy hit that players are throwing at the idea of a decker being able do something as effective as mages or combat monsters. Seriously, this is a game where a mage can just mindcontrol someone, a samurai can cut them in half with a monofilament whip, and we are talking about turning someone's legs off as being some sort of big deal?

Mind control requires touch, and a monowhip requires close proximity. I know if I had cyberlegs, I would not consider some random schmuck turning my legs off inconsequential, even if it was some pathetic griefer script kiddie. Especially if it was in the middle of a job. The "hissy fit" isn't "at the idea of a decker being able do something as effective as mages or combat monsters." The complaint is that deckers are being shoehorned into a role which is not appropriate. Deckers have always been powerful in Shadowrun, just not in direct physical combat. Should mouse and rat shamans be given über combat abilities to make them combat effective too?

Just taking a deep breath and accepting the new decker reality will just make everything into a non-issue.

Ah yes. The "lie back and think of England" rationale.

...
In 2075, it is ludicrous to think that your toaster would be anything more than a brick without accessing god knows how many APIs for applications hosted elsewhere.

At which point, Mr. Toaster becomes such a pain that it's easier to live without toast.

...
Depends on what's silent, I'd guess. In some places running with your commlink silent is illegal. I imagine that running your pistol silent without a permit to carry it concealed is illegal.

Note that a lot of laws exist as secondary offenses to increase the severity of an actual crime. So you may not get hassled for running silent some days, but if you knock over a liquor store with all your gear running silent, it probably makes things worse.

Because someone knocking over a liquor store is going to be so concerned about those laws. If only someone had thought to make theft illegal, liquor stores everywhere would be safer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[DuckEggBlue Omeg...]

Bad idea. Cheap device = crap attributes. When the local matrix security does a sweep and notices 30 new hidden icons, and randomly selects a Stealth Tag, he'll be able to easily run Trace User to locate you and your whole team.

So Trace Icon can find the physical location of a device, so if I got a bag of rats, glued stuff to them, and set them loose, on the otherside of the compound, that'd work, right?

Depends on what's silent, I'd guess. In some places running with your commlink silent is illegal. I imagine that running your pistol silent without a permit to carry it concealed is illegal.

I'm more wondering if noticing a silent running icon immediately triggers an alarm or if it would illicit more a 'better check, just in case' type reaction.

[Sendaz]

So Trace Icon can find the physical location of a device, so if I got a bag of rats, glued stuff to them, and set them loose, on the otherside of the compound, that'd work, right?

Yes for causing a distraction, but if you were wanting a silent in and out job, having a mob of mystery icons suddenly pop up may also trigger an alarm from the spider who might think they were under attack.

I'm more wondering if noticing a silent running icon immediately triggers an alarm or if it would illicit more a 'better check, just in case' type reaction.

Again depends on location and situation. A silent icon coming down a hallway may warrant a further check, one popping up in the ultra-secure R&D section warrants an alert.

[Smash]

Period, full stop, end of story. In the case of things like Wired Reflexes, cybereyes, or the like, this has just effectively disabled the character if not killed him outright.

That is the sum total of what SR5 says about bricking a device. There are no specifications as to what happens when hardware that replaces large parts of your nervous system is bricked, however from the bit that talks about bricked devices always failing spectacularly and in physically damaging (to the device) ways, there is no answer that is an acceptable risk.

The mere possibility of this is more than enough reason for no sensible runner to even leave a path open for it to happen.

Sorry but this is preposterous. You can't continue to pull the logic card in ways that fly in the face of your own reasoning.

We're talking about people who go an armed missions where there is a chance they will be captured, tortured or even killed. There is nothing you can do to avoid this risk (sure, good intelligence can minimize it a bit) but to simply not go on the run.

Here's yet another example: Have you ever purchased anything online with a credit card? If you answer yes than you are an idiot, but only as much of an idiot as 80% of the rest of the population. The other 20% either can't afford credit cards or lock themselves in towers out of an irrational fear of germs. The reason is that information is not that secure, either the site might be hacked, have no encryption or you may inadvertently have some kind malware that can report your information to nefarious sorts. The reality is that the shear mass of transactions that occur on the web mean that you just have to be unlucky to be frauded. We all either consciously or unwittingly take this risk.

It's clear that the setting implies that at the end of a risk assessment there will be times where having your wireless on should be worth the risk. The problem is that the rules don't provide the right mechanism/bonuses for this to be the case. I'm happy to admit as much.

[binarywraith]

Sorry but this is preposterous. You can't continue to pull the logic card in ways that fly in the face of your own reasoning.

We're talking about people who go an armed missions where there is a chance they will be captured, tortured or even killed. There is nothing you can do to avoid this risk (sure, good intelligence can minimize it a bit) but to simply not go on the run.

Here's yet another example: Have you ever purchased anything online with a credit card? If you answer yes than you are an idiot, but only as much of an idiot as 80% of the rest of the population. The other 20% either can't afford credit cards or lock themselves in towers out of an irrational fear of germs. The reason is that information is not that secure, either the site might be hacked, have no encryption or you may inadvertently have some kind malware that can report your information to nefarious sorts. The reality is that the shear mass of transactions that occur on the web mean that you just have to be unlucky to be frauded. We all either consciously or unwittingly take this risk.

It's clear that the setting implies that at the end of a risk assessment there will be times where having your wireless on should be worth the risk. The problem is that the rules don't provide the right mechanism/bonuses for this to be the case. I'm happy to admit as much.

Wired reflexes: This highly invasive, painful,
life-changing operation adds a multitude of neural boosters
and adrenaline stimulators in strategic locations
throughout your body work to catapult you into a whole
new world where everything around you seems to move
in slow motion.

If the Matrix Condition Monitor of a device is completely
filled, the device ceases functioning. This is
called bricking a device. Devices that are bricked never
fail non-spectacularly. Smoke, sparks, pops, bangs, sizzles,
nasty smells, and occasionally even small fires are
common features of a device in the process of becoming
a brick. If you’re using your deck in VR when it gets
bricked, you are dumped from the Matrix and suffer
dumpshock (see p. 229). A bricked device is damaged
and useless until it is repaired (described in the next bit,
Repairing Matrix Damage).

Relevant parts bolded. The risk/reward calculation on this is so far skewed that there is no rational reason to use wireless. Period, end of story.

[Tanegar]

Relevant parts bolded. The risk/reward calculation on this is so far skewed that there is no rational reason to use wireless. Period, end of story.

Precisely. Even this mystical 20% figure (and I never have seen an explanation as to where they got that number) is unacceptably high when "bricking" is a euphemism for "dying in agony, screaming and flopping around on the ground, while your cyberware cooks you from the inside."

[Epicedion]

Mostly, it's hard because there's no point. What's the point in having electronics in a glorified stick? RFID in a disposable paper hat?

Because the electronics are cheap as free, and because there's some benefit to be had by either the user, the manufacturer/seller, or the government.

We shove electronics into things already because it's cheap and provides a benefit. A $5 box of cold medicine at the local drugstore has an RFID tag in it to prevent theft. Now imagine the technology is 70 years further along -- that tag could provide links back to the manufacturer and local medical professionals to let them know if there's a sudden spike in cold medicine purchases, so they could adjust their efforts. It could provide an update to let the customer know if it went out of date, or if there were a recall on that specific batch, all automatically. A digestible tag in each individual pill could link up to an application on your commlink to provide biomonitor feedback to yourself and your doctor to warn you if there's some concern.

A tag on your soda can could send you an update to let you know when it reached optimum temperature for drinking -- and don't tell me this is stupid, because they're doing it with temperature-sensitive color coding on beer cans right now.

A temperature-sensitive RFID tag in your soy turkey loaf could ping you when it's done, or send a signal to automatically shut down your oven (and start the microwave for the sides, and turn on the wine chiller, and pause playback on the trid).

So why? Because it's cheap and because they can, and because Stick - Now With New and Improved Tactical Grip Assessment sells slightly better than just plain Stick.

What's the point of having the system use a wireless link? It is faster, more secure, and more sensible to use a direct neural connection for many systems, especially anything that needs to implanted anyways like smartgun links, wired reflexes, VCRs, chipjacks and connected skillwire implants, cybereyes and implanted subsystems, etc.

This is where the system goes It's All Made Up, and the answer is Reasons. Maybe it's practicality, maybe it's bandwidth. Maybe it's cost. Maybe it's rejection risk. Maybe it's a lot of things. But it's how it works here.

Mind control requires touch, and a monowhip requires close proximity.

Mind control spells require LOS, not Touch.

I know if I had cyberlegs, I would not consider some random schmuck turning my legs off inconsequential, even if it was some pathetic griefer script kiddie.

There are no more script kiddies. Reliably hacking someone's gear requires expensive equipment, high Logic, and professional training. You're playing the "evil deckers lurk everywhere and are just waiting for me to go online so they can brick my stuff" card. It doesn't work that way, and there's no reason to expect it to work that way unless you bought into SR4's stupid sensibilities of everyone being the equivalent of a magical hacker genius with a $20 investment and a copy of Hacking for Dummies.

The "hissy fit" isn't "at the idea of a decker being able do something as effective as mages or combat monsters." The complaint is that deckers are being shoehorned into a role which is not appropriate. Deckers have always been powerful in Shadowrun, just not in direct physical combat. Should mouse and rat shamans be given über combat abilities to make them combat effective too?

What makes you think that this makes deckers powerful in direct physical combat? Turning someone's wired reflexes off isn't the same as shooting them -- an Ork with a machine gun and one fewer initiative die is still a threat. Turning off someone's eyes or gun in the middle of a firefight is probably a drag, but probably slightly less so than the sniper popping heads for 15 damage every pass.

At which point, Mr. Toaster becomes such a pain that it's easier to live without toast.

If that's how you want to do it, live without toast. But Shadowrun has always been about trying desperately not to fall behind the curve, because behind the curve is a meat grinder.

Because someone knocking over a liquor store is going to be so concerned about those laws. If only someone had thought to make theft illegal, liquor stores everywhere would be safer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

Do you not understand how laws work? Wrap your brain around this one: owning a bulletproof vest is legal. Wearing your bulletproof vest is legal. Wearing your bulletproof vest while committing a violent felony is itself an additional felony.

[Epicedion]

Relevant parts bolded. The risk/reward calculation on this is so far skewed that there is no rational reason to use wireless. Period, end of story.

What's the damage code for that? Oh right, there isn't one. You don't have an argument. Period, end of story.

[Dolanar]

This has been one of the biggest issues about Wireless. The Fluff & the rules are not on even footing. Some people believe that the Fluff is meaningless & that everyone should ignore it. Others believe that in a game as Fluff intensive as Shadowrun the Fluff is damn important to what a piece of gear does. I personally believe that the rules should reflect the Fluff.

[kzt]

Because someone knocking over a liquor store is going to be so concerned about those laws. If only someone had thought to make theft illegal, liquor stores everywhere would be safer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

It's odd how criminals don't seem obey laws. Maybe we should make breaking the law illegal, surely then they would stop...

[kzt]

Here's yet another example: Have you ever purchased anything online with a credit card? If you answer yes than you are an idiot, but only as much of an idiot as 80% of the rest of the population.

You know what happens when your credit card number gets stolen? You call your bank and they cancel the charge, cancel your card and send you a new card. People use credit cards on the internet because it's essentially at zero risk to them, the risk is all on the merchant and bank side.

So no, that's a terrible analogy.

[Kyrel]

Dolanar hit the nail on the head here. In the way that Bricking is described in the fluff, there is absolutely NO WAY on this planet, universe, or multiverse, that a piece of electronic equipment that's build into sensitive parts of your body, NOT cause at least extreme pain and discomfort, and more likely potential fatal systemic damage to your body and brain, when it blows up in the way described. If your eyes start throwing sparks, leaking molten plastic, and giving off smoke, that WILL be mildly put uncomfortable to you, and leave you unable to see. Having your nervous system replacement, which is distributed throughout your entire body, suddenly act in the way that's described as the consequenses of being "Bricked", there is no way that this will not have potentially fatal consequences for a person. Suddenly having one or more of your limbs and/or vital organs shut down and spit component parts in your face, while you are engaged in a life or death firefight with people trying to kill you, WILL end up being, mildly put, EXTREMELY detrimental to your continued existance.

Though I'll conceed that people generally speaking are willing to accept some level of risk to get access to a given set of benefits, that kind of evaluation ALWAYS comes down to a subjective estimate of the risk and reward. But at the end of the day, there has to be a balance between the perceived risk of the bad consequences happening, and the value of the attained benefit. For the average person, the risk of having your credit card hacked and your account emptied, if you use it to pay for something online, is perceived as being small enough to accept it. Even though having your bank account emptied can have severe negative consequences. However, there is a difference between the consequence of "loosing some/all of your money, if a hacker picks you out from a crowd of millions of people world wide" and "potentially having (parts of) your body shut down during critical moments of performing your already potentially fatal job" is fairly significant. Especially when you know that the odds of becoming the target of a hacker, who can shut down vital parts of your anatomy is a LOT more substantial, than the odds of being picked out by a hacker that's choosing between millions of potential victims. If the perceived risk of being the victim of a hacking attack, that can kill you is easily in the range of i.e. 35+%, then this is a risk a professional individual with any sort of brains, will do whatever he or she can, in order to eliminate. Especially if there's an easy fix.

Here's what I believe is the core of this argument though. The RULES of the game do not create the situation that the FLUFF describes in vivid details. No, according to the rules, having your eyes blow up doesn't mean that you suddenly can't see anything, no rather it means that you just can't use any of the possible extra build-in features that your eyeware might include. Having your limbs blow up and cease working doesn't mean that you can't use them like regular limbs. And having various forms of wires distributed throughout your body melt, throw sparks, and cause electricity to leak into sensitive parts of your anatomy doesn't do any damage to you, and can, in fact, be fixed by a local mechanic with a hammer and a screwdriver (Ok, the hammer and screwdriver thing is probably an overstatement, but you get my point I trust).

As Dolanar points out, the consistancy between the fluff and the rules are in this respect completely and utterly out of sync with each other. To some people, this kind of discrepency doesn't matter, only the rules. To people like me, this is a SERIOUS cock-up by the developers. ESPECIALLY in a game where the setting descriptions are so prevalent and integrated a part of the game, as they are in Shadowrun.

In this case, the designers have decided that they wanted hackers to be able to criple cyberware by hacking it, but rather than allowing hackers to be able to kill and utterly cripple players outright (something that would probably very quickly have resulted in players no longer using cyberware at all), they decided to tone it down, and reduce the descriped catastrophic damage caused to the gear when bricked, to only be a limited and easily fixed de-buff of the character, which makes absolutely no form of sense within the context of the described effect of "Bricking".

From my perspective making this change to cyberware was not necessary, and does not contribute positively to the game in my perspective. Rather it feels like a crappy implementation of an idea, or a rushed or miscommunicated job between the people behind the writing of the fluff, and the people who made the rules. Or alternatively the designers decided that they would make a game that mainly caters to the kind of player who doesn't really care about fluff/rule consistancy.

/Kyrel

[KCKitsune]

You can't just go down to the corner store and ask the clerk for the iPhone without all the corporate spyware on it.

Funny, I bought my Motorola Atrix phone, rooted it, and then REPLACED THE OS! I'm running a version of Android WITHOUT the spyware crap that was put into the standard version of android that comes from the Wireless carriers.

If I can do that in 2012 with commonly available tools that I got off the Internet, then why can't a hacker who's forgotten more about hacking, than the common Joe will ever learn, can't do the same thing?

[Erik Baird]

Because the electronics are cheap as free, and because there's some benefit to be had by either the user, the manufacturer/seller, or the government.

We shove electronics into things already because it's cheap and provides a benefit. A $5 box of cold medicine at the local drugstore has an RFID tag in it to prevent theft. Now imagine the technology is 70 years further along -- that tag could provide links back to the manufacturer and local medical professionals to let them know if there's a sudden spike in cold medicine purchases, so they could adjust their efforts. It could provide an update to let the customer know if it went out of date, or if there were a recall on that specific batch, all automatically. A digestible tag in each individual pill could link up to an application on your commlink to provide biomonitor feedback to yourself and your doctor to warn you if there's some concern.

A tag on your soda can could send you an update to let you know when it reached optimum temperature for drinking -- and don't tell me this is stupid, because they're doing it with temperature-sensitive color coding on beer cans right now.

A temperature-sensitive RFID tag in your soy turkey loaf could ping you when it's done, or send a signal to automatically shut down your oven (and start the microwave for the sides, and turn on the wine chiller, and pause playback on the trid).

So why? Because it's cheap and because they can, and because Stick - Now With New and Improved Tactical Grip Assessment sells slightly better than just plain Stick.

And yet these same megacorporations would sell their grandparents to save 0.001 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per widget in manufacturing costs because it makes them money in the long run. I'll even allow that RFID tags go from passive devices that respond when interrogated to active transmitters powered by *plot*. It still doesn't make sense to stick electronics in everything.

This is where the system goes It's All Made Up, and the answer is Reasons. Maybe it's practicality, maybe it's bandwidth. Maybe it's cost. Maybe it's rejection risk. Maybe it's a lot of things. But it's how it works here.

And it still is a contradiction of the previous editions of the game.

Mind control spells require LOS, not Touch.

My mistake. I had mind probe stuck in my head for some reason.

There are no more script kiddies. Reliably hacking someone's gear requires expensive equipment, high Logic, and professional training. You're playing the "evil deckers lurk everywhere and are just waiting for me to go online so they can brick my stuff" card. It doesn't work that way, and there's no reason to expect it to work that way unless you bought into SR4's stupid sensibilities of everyone being the equivalent of a magical hacker genius with a $20 investment and a copy of Hacking for Dummies.

So in 207x, all software is perfect? There are no vulnerabilities whatsoever that could ever be used to gain access to or harm a device via its software and a few simple tricks? That's real science fiction.

What makes you think that this makes deckers powerful in direct physical combat? Turning someone's wired reflexes off isn't the same as shooting them -- an Ork with a machine gun and one fewer initiative die is still a threat. Turning off someone's eyes or gun in the middle of a firefight is probably a drag, but probably slightly less so than the sniper popping heads for 15 damage every pass.

What makes deckers powerful in direct physical combat is the ability to shut a target's body down. Even if you don't follow the given description of bricking, merely turning off a leg would affect mobility; eyes the ability to perceive and function in a sight-oriented world; wired reflexes are a major part of the owners central nervous system- think that won't have any meaningful effect?

If that's how you want to do it, live without toast. But Shadowrun has always been about trying desperately not to fall behind the curve, because behind the curve is a meat grinder.

I agree, and if you choose to put your cyberware and equipment on the Matrix for all to see (stealth mode or not), you have just given that meat grinder the advantage.

Do you not understand how laws work? Wrap your brain around this one: owning a bulletproof vest is legal. Wearing your bulletproof vest is legal. Wearing your bulletproof vest while committing a violent felony is itself an additional felony.

And therefore no one ever commits felonies while wearing bulletproof vests, because they were okay with having black market weapons, assaulting folks, committing armed robbery, and jaywalking, but the thought of that extra charge for wearing a bulletproof vest while in commission of a felony made the bad guys give up in despair.

[binarywraith]

Here's what I believe is the core of this argument though. The RULES of the game do not create the situation that the FLUFF describes in vivid details. No, according to the rules, having your eyes blow up doesn't mean that you suddenly can't see anything, no rather it means that you just can't use any of the possible extra build-in features that your eyeware might include. Having your limbs blow up and cease working doesn't mean that you can't use them like regular limbs. And having various forms of wires distributed throughout your body melt, throw sparks, and cause electricity to leak into sensitive parts of your anatomy doesn't do any damage to you, and can, in fact, be fixed by a local mechanic with a hammer and a screwdriver (Ok, the hammer and screwdriver thing is probably an overstatement, but you get my point I trust).

As Dolanar points out, the consistancy between the fluff and the rules are in this respect completely and utterly out of sync with each other. To some people, this kind of discrepency doesn't matter, only the rules. To people like me, this is a SERIOUS cock-up by the developers. ESPECIALLY in a game where the setting descriptions are so prevalent and integrated a part of the game, as they are in Shadowrun.

In this case, the designers have decided that they wanted hackers to be able to criple cyberware by hacking it, but rather than allowing hackers to be able to kill and utterly cripple players outright (something that would probably very quickly have resulted in players no longer using cyberware at all), they decided to tone it down, and reduce the descriped catastrophic damage caused to the gear when bricked, to only be a limited and easily fixed de-buff of the character, which makes absolutely no form of sense within the context of the described effect of "Bricking".

That's the thing. The simplest answer I can come up with here is that the writers simply didn't think about bricking cyberware. They had a neat idea about 'hey, what if Deckers could wreck someone's commlink!', and stuck it in, but then never considered the full ramifications of this in a setting where they've just mandated that cyberware be wirelessly accessible.

In either case, the rules as written are so vague on the topic that it's essentially GM fiat.

Going by the fluff, as I as a GM tend to do when a question of what a rule actually intends comes up, this shit should obviously cripple someone when applied to their cyberware. The examples in the text mention stuff like shut down vibroswords still being okay to club people with, or shut down rotor drones coming down in autorotation, both of which indicate to me that bricking something is intended to make it nonfunctional.

A cyberlimb that is nonfunctional is just a block of metal dragging on the body. A cybereye that is nonfunctional is a really expensive glass eye. A nervous system replacement that is nonfunctional... well, hopefully it doesn't paralyze your autonomic functions so you just suffocate lying in the street from being unable to tell your lungs to breath or heart to beat.

[KarmaInferno]

One major thing is that the new Wireless Rules are intended to make Matrix Cowboys more attractive to play.

I contend that in this, they have failed spectacularly.

Even assuming a target is stupid enough to leave his wireless butt exposed for anyone to take advantage of, the process of hacking in and grabbing control still takes too many steps.

So far in the couple of dozen games I've been in or seen run, I have seen someone attempt to hack an opponent's gear exactly ONCE. And immediately afterwards he declared he'd never bother with that again, because it was too much trouble for the payoff.

Way, way back when there were discussions here on how the "next version of Shadowrun" should work, before anyone outside of the Devs were aware that it was in fact being worked in, we went over making Deckers feel more useful. I contended that if hackers/deckers/technomancers were to have a more active combat role, any "cyber" attack they were going to execute HAD to be as simple in game mechanics as shooting a gun or casting a spell.

Anything more would meant the players wouldn't bother. There would better more efficient uses of their actions.


-k

[Wounded Ronin]

One major thing is that the new Wireless Rules are intended to make Matrix Cowboys more attractive to play.

I contend that in this, they have failed spectacularly.

Even assuming a target is stupid enough to leave his wireless butt exposed for anyone to take advantage of, the process of hacking in and grabbing control still takes too many steps.

So far in the couple of dozen games I've been in or seen run, I have seen someone attempt to hack an opponent's gear exactly ONCE. And immediately afterwards he declared he'd never bother with that again, because it was too much trouble for the payoff.

Way, way back when there were discussions here on how the "next version of Shadowrun" should work, before anyone outside of the Devs were aware that it was in fact being worked in, we went over making Deckers feel more useful. I contended that if hackers/deckers/technomancers were to have a more active combat role, any "cyber" attack they were going to execute HAD to be as simple in game mechanics as shooting a gun or casting a spell.

Anything more would meant the players wouldn't bother. There would better more efficient uses of their actions.


-k

Kind of makes you wonder if the best solution all along would just been to have a simplified rule set for runs that aren't focused on matrix stuff, but reserve an "advanced" rule set a la SR2 for a session or campaign that takes place primarily in the matrix and where the special aspects of the systems in question are part of the setting.

[binarywraith]

Even if it did work, with these bricking rules it just adds 'Geek the Decker' to the old standby 'Geek the Mage' in the list of Things Sally Street Sam Does First, and Deckers don't have any of the Mage's defensive options.

[DeathStrobe]

One major thing is that the new Wireless Rules are intended to make Matrix Cowboys more attractive to play.

I contend that in this, they have failed spectacularly.

Even assuming a target is stupid enough to leave his wireless butt exposed for anyone to take advantage of, the process of hacking in and grabbing control still takes too many steps.

So far in the couple of dozen games I've been in or seen run, I have seen someone attempt to hack an opponent's gear exactly ONCE. And immediately afterwards he declared he'd never bother with that again, because it was too much trouble for the payoff.

Way, way back when there were discussions here on how the "next version of Shadowrun" should work, before anyone outside of the Devs were aware that it was in fact being worked in, we went over making Deckers feel more useful. I contended that if hackers/deckers/technomancers were to have a more active combat role, any "cyber" attack they were going to execute HAD to be as simple in game mechanics as shooting a gun or casting a spell.

Anything more would meant the players wouldn't bother. There would better more efficient uses of their actions.


-k

I agree that's how I'd like it to work too. With Matrix Attacks working more like spells. But at the same time, the outcry over people fearing the all mighty decker as it is now would be even more exasperated if it went that way. I think the Matrix has been this minidungeon system that has been so separated from the rest of the game for so long that people are just rejecting any paradigm shift to make the Matrix more than something you can just handwave away and ignore.

Frankly, the systems do need to overlap more. The Matrix needs to be more than just a babysitting plot device or a key to the locked door. People can complain about logical consistency or whatever, when we're in a setting about dragons, the Native Americans taking back America, and corporations being recognized as pseudo-nations; wireless bonuses is the straw the broke your camel-of-disbelief's back?

[Epicedion]

One major thing is that the new Wireless Rules are intended to make Matrix Cowboys more attractive to play.

I contend that in this, they have failed spectacularly.

Even assuming a target is stupid enough to leave his wireless butt exposed for anyone to take advantage of, the process of hacking in and grabbing control still takes too many steps.

So far in the couple of dozen games I've been in or seen run, I have seen someone attempt to hack an opponent's gear exactly ONCE. And immediately afterwards he declared he'd never bother with that again, because it was too much trouble for the payoff.

Way, way back when there were discussions here on how the "next version of Shadowrun" should work, before anyone outside of the Devs were aware that it was in fact being worked in, we went over making Deckers feel more useful. I contended that if hackers/deckers/technomancers were to have a more active combat role, any "cyber" attack they were going to execute HAD to be as simple in game mechanics as shooting a gun or casting a spell.

Anything more would meant the players wouldn't bother. There would better more efficient uses of their actions.


-k

With the rules allowing some brute-force mid-combat crowd-control via gear hacking on the part of deckers, people seem to think that this is what deckers should be doing.

The actuality is that the rules allow for these actions because the system for attacking gear is now the same as the system for attacking anything in the Matrix. What this does is open the door for all the other stuff -- spoofing comms, editing sensors, getting security to chase digital ghosts, tracking people real-time. All sorts of subtle stuff.

Example: want to know where a security team is? Hack on the Fly three marks on one of the members and run a Trace User. Botch the roll and the jig is up, Matrix attack detected -- time to change plans.

Once you're talking about an enemy that knows what and where you are, bricking their gear isn't usually the best option. Once you successfully brick one thing, and everyone knows that Matrix security is compromised, you can expect everyone to use their free actions to take their critical systems down. So it's pretty much a one-shot deal. "Security teams one and two, move in on the targets -- they've got a hacker with them that flipped off Johnson's cybereyes, so put everything into protected mode until we can shut him down."

Until then, the benefit of online vision enhancements and smartlinks and so on outweighs the risk, because spotting an infiltrator before he shoots you or getting a hit instead of a miss is the most immediate thing that will save your ass.

Further, any security protocol is going to have an expected casualty rate, and a Matrix attack is just another factor -- just because mages and snipers can wreak havoc with a clear line of sight from long distances doesn't mean that security patrols are never going to go into the open field at the back of the complex. In Shadowrun, warm bodies make for cheap threat detection.

I think the Matrix has been this minidungeon system that has been so separated from the rest of the game for so long that people are just rejecting any paradigm shift to make the Matrix more than something you can just handwave away and ignore.

This is very important.

[Emil Barr]

I was reading the matrix section and just noticed a couple things that Ive never seen mentioned in any of the discussions on wireless and bricking.

If the hardware test to repair a bricked piece of gear is glitched, then your gear suffers from oermanent glitches and problems, GM discretion.

If the test is CRITICALLY glitched, then its bricked for good.

Man, that would suck if your wires or cyberarm got permanently bricked.

[Smash]

I was reading the matrix section and just noticed a couple things that Ive never seen mentioned in any of the discussions on wireless and bricking.

If the hardware test to repair a bricked piece of gear is glitched, then your gear suffers from oermanent glitches and problems, GM discretion.

If the test is CRITICALLY glitched, then its bricked for good.

Man, that would suck if your wires or cyberarm got permanently bricked.

It would also suck to be hit by an errant comet as well but shit happens. Critical glitches are virtually impossible for anyone rolling more than about 4 dice and that's even before application of edge.

I remember the days (in shadowrun) when being shot once could put you in hospital for months and require you to get cyber-replacements. It was perfectly acceptable then.