[X] My Assistant

[binarywraith]

It would also suck to be hit by an errant comet as well but shit happens. Critical glitches are virtually impossible for anyone rolling more than about 4 dice and that's even before application of edge.

I remember the days (in shadowrun) when being shot once could put you in hospital for months and require you to get cyber-replacements. It was perfectly acceptable then.

What, you mean a couple days ago? You should check out the new Missions run, there's a sniper in the third run for the season who can do just that with SR5 rules.

Something notable for this discussion as well. In the first adventure of the new set... every NPC explicitly has their wireless shut off on everything.


Even the writers know that what got published isn't workable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Dolanar]

To be honest, I would be more ok if Decker's were able to put 3 marks on someone's Cyberarm & then take it over much like a Rigger would control a Drone. I think it would allow the Decker to mess with a group more readily much like a mage could mind control, Imagine if you will.

Runner Team is sneaking quietly through the Ares compound making good time, the Troll heavy is up front carrying an Assault Rifle. The Facility Spider is doing a securtiy sweep & notices some unusual icons in the complex, so he runs silent & goes to check them out. The Spider arrives at the matrix location & the Team Decker misses him.
The Spider decides to be sneaky & does a Hack on the fly to put 3 marks on the Troll's Cyberarm. He succeeds. Now, the Spider can take an action to force the Troll's arm to do something, be it smack the troll in the face, or swing him around to fire off a short burst at his team. After this happens the Team Decker knows something is wrong & begins to deal with the Spider, but not before the whole facility is alerted & the Spider is laughing all the way back to his Nest.

This was intended to be mostly cinematic, I did not use any dice rolls, but simply showing an example of something I would be more ok with than just making something useless.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

They don't need to be omnipresent for the one in the crooks pocket he bought off ebay for $50 to steal your creditcard info. And keeping them in a sheilded case, whilst probably sensible, is not conducive to the premise of convieniance that the technology is sold to the average person on, where you just wave your purse/wallet by the scanner (Wave and Go), as you're not saving anytime taking it out and waving it by the scanner as opposed to taking it out and swiping it, so if you do have a shielded case, why do you even have a wireless card in the first place? It is no less ridiculous a situation than the things criticised in the rules, and I don't think anyone could make the case in good faith that most people aren't incredibly uneducated or lax about their electronic/online/wireless security.

That said I'm not now or was I ever trying to justify having rules systems be equally ridiculous. No one wants that, I would think. Like I said 'I go to agree' with those arguments and then remember how stupid reality can be. I was just pointing out a case of truth being stranger (or dumber) than fiction.

Which is why SMART people do not possess wireless enabled credit cards. Simple fix to the problem.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The point being, we are already getting to the point where just turning it off is unthinkable insanity. In 2075, it is ludicrous to think that your toaster would be anything more than a brick without accessing god knows how many APIs for applications hosted elsewhere.

Why? I don't suffer any consequences for never having wireless access 24/7/365. What makes that an unthinkable insanity?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What's the damage code for that? Oh right, there isn't one. You don't have an argument. Period, end of story.

There does not need to be a damage code. The effects are so self evident that I am amazed you need a dissertation on anatomy and the effects on such when the described effects of bricking are applied. Equally ludicrous are the later descriptions on how such damage is fixed.

[Epicedion]

There does not need to be a damage code. The effects are so self evident that I am amazed you need a dissertation on anatomy and the effects on such when the described effects of bricking are applied. Equally ludicrous are the later descriptions on how such damage is fixed.

If by dissertation you mean the bare minimum mechanical notation that makes damage relevant. This isn't a "we can't have a code for everything" situation like crash landing on the sun. It's a built-in, expected action. If it doesn't come attached with a damage code in addition to its described effects, it doesn't do damage.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If by dissertation you mean the bare minimum mechanical notation that makes damage relevant. This isn't a "we can't have a code for everything" situation like crash landing on the sun. It's a built-in, expected action. If it doesn't come attached with a damage code in addition to its described effects, it doesn't do damage.

Please show me the bare minimum mechanical effect of being within 200 meters of a Thor shot impact. It is ALL FLUFF. There are effects that just do not need mechanical reinforcement.

And that, right there, is the disconnect that destroys verisimilitude in SR5. The descriptions of the effect do not match up to the mechanics. POOR Game Design at its most obvious. I don't need mechanical effects to tell you that your nervous system shuts down and you die when your Move-By-Wires are bricked, resulting in your nervous system burning and sparking, charring all the meat around it, and carbonizing your Neural pathways. That is the expected outcome from the effect described. Too bad, so sad, make a new character. If they wanted something different, then they either should describe it differently, or provide mechanics for the effect described.

And before you say that that is being a Bad GM, please remember that it isnt. The Crash wiped out Multiple Millions of databases, and yet, it is descriptive. We take it as fact. There was no mechanic for it. There was no mechanical resolution if you want to play in that era. It just happens. By the same token, Bricking has defined results. Even Thor Shots are more Descriptive than mechanical. Their effects are fact, per the fluff. To assume that they really did not mean what they wrote is ludicrous beyond compare. So, we must take it as fact. Have you ever considered that there should be no mechanical effect for what they describe (Much like there is no mechanical effect for what happens to anything within 200 meters of a Thor Shot... it just vaportizes everything in its initial radius, no saves, no rolls, no hope)? As such, per the actual rules (or fluff if you perfer) any person putting Cyberware on the Matrix is at risk of bricking, which is likely to kill them outright.

[Epicedion]

Please show me the bare minimum mechanical effect of being within 200 meters of a Thor shot impact. It is ALL FLUFF. There are effects that just do not need mechanical reinforcement.

Thor Shots don't have a mechanic. Bricking does. One of the things that doesn't come with the bricking mechanic is damage. Therefore, bricking causes no damage. QED.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Thor Shots don't have a mechanic. Bricking does. One of the things that doesn't come with the bricking mechanic is damage. Therefore, bricking causes no damage. QED.

Wrong... Thor Shots DO have a Mechanical Effect beyond 200 meters. Within that radius, however, the effect is purely descriptive. Bricking has a a defined effect both in Fluff and mechanically on hardware. You cannot choose to ignore one for the other.

[Epicedion]

Wrong... Thor Shots DO have a Mechanical Effect beyond 200 meters. Within that radius, however, the effect is purely descriptive. Bricking has a a defined effect both in Fluff and mechanically on hardware. You cannot choose to ignore one for the other.

Bricking causes no damage. You'll need to find a page reference that says otherwise.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Bricking causes no damage. You'll need to find a page reference that says otherwise.

The description says otherwise.

[Dolanar]

Actually, strictly by the rules Bricking is caused by Matrix Damage, & the sparking & such is likely caused by an incorrect shutdown process or whatever other method is used to disable the device, so the order of operation is as such: Unmodified Cybergear > Cybergear takes Matrix Damage > Cybergear becomes Bricked & the fluff effects happen as a result of the cyber damage the item has taken.

[Epicedion]

The description says otherwise.

No, the description says that it throws sparks or smokes or seizes up and stops working. It says nothing about causing damage to anyone or anything in, on, or around it. You might as well be saying that bricked guns explode and take your hand off. You have no mechanical basis for saying that cyberware necessarily causes damage when bricked, and the only plausible reason you'd ever think this is because you're looking for reasons to hate it more.

[RHat]

Wrong... Thor Shots DO have a Mechanical Effect beyond 200 meters. Within that radius, however, the effect is purely descriptive. Bricking has a a defined effect both in Fluff and mechanically on hardware. You cannot choose to ignore one for the other.

Thor shots do have a mechanical effect inside 200 metres. That effect is to destroy everything. That is the mechanic, not merely descriptive. Brivking, however, has no mechanic for csusing damage.

[Dolanar]

personally IMO if you ignore one portion of the fluff then you're looking to make something look better than it actually is, the most reasonable thing we can say right now is until the writer (or a proxy for him) comes onto the boards & says something to the extent of "Oops, I f'd up" or"No, my description is meant to have a mechanical effect, talk to the rule writer" no one in these 2 camps will agree on this point.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

personally IMO if you ignore one portion of the fluff then you're looking to make something look better than it actually is, the most reasonable thing we can say right now is until the writer (or a proxy for him) comes onto the boards & says something to the extent of "Oops, I f'd up" or"No, my description is meant to have a mechanical effect, talk to the rule writer" no one in these 2 camps will agree on this point.

This is very true indeed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Epicedion]

Actually, strictly by the rules Bricking is caused by Matrix Damage, & the sparking & such is likely caused by an incorrect shutdown process or whatever other method is used to disable the device, so the order of operation is as such: Unmodified Cybergear > Cybergear takes Matrix Damage > Cybergear becomes Bricked & the fluff effects happen as a result of the cyber damage the item has taken.

The point here is that extra deleterious effects have to be spelled out. Otherwise, you should have to expect worse-than-listed effects of everything. Like a gunshot wound for less-than-incapacitating damage perforating the digestive tract, causing the victim to go into shock and later die of sepsis. Or the swing of a broom handle shattering a kneecap and making it so the character can no longer walk.

Bricked devices "fail spectacularly" but don't cause any extra damage. Whether it's sparks shooting out of your eyes, or lightning coursing over your skin from wired reflexes shorting out, or your implanted commlink smoking and singing your hair and dribbling melting plastic out of your ear, these things don't cause mechanical effects beyond just being bricked. Those effects would necessarily have to be spelled out to be included in a game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The point here is that extra deleterious effects have to be spelled out. Otherwise, you should have to expect worse-than-listed effects of everything. Like a gunshot wound for less-than-incapacitating damage perforating the digestive tract, causing the victim to go into shock and later die of sepsis. Or the swing of a broom handle shattering a kneecap and making it so the character can no longer walk.

Bricked devices "fail spectacularly" but don't cause any extra damage. Whether it's sparks shooting out of your eyes, or lightning coursing over your skin from wired reflexes shorting out, or your implanted commlink smoking and singing your hair and dribbling melting plastic out of your ear, these things don't cause mechanical effects beyond just being bricked. Those effects would necessarily have to be spelled out to be included in a game.

And I disagree with you on that premise. Some things are just common sense, and fire shooting from your eyes because your Cybereyes just got bricked, resulting in it blinding you, and possibly killing you, is one of them (at a minimum, you will need new eyes). Brick someone's Wired Reflexes and that is death, plain and simple.

[Nath]

Bricked devices "fail spectacularly" but don't cause any extra damage. Whether it's sparks shooting out of your eyes, or lightning coursing over your skin from wired reflexes shorting out, or your implanted commlink smoking and singing your hair and dribbling melting plastic out of your ear, these things don't cause mechanical effects beyond just being bricked. Those effects would necessarily have to be spelled out to be included in a game.

If your cyberware starts emitting smoke and sparks glaringly, especially eyes, you should suffer from Visibility and Glare Environmental Modifier as defined on page 175.

[Epicedion]

And I disagree with you on that premise. Some things are just common sense, and fire shooting from your eyes because your Cybereyes just got bricked, resulting in it blinding you, and possibly killing you, is one of them (at a minimum, you will need new eyes). Brick someone's Wired Reflexes and that is death, plain and simple.

Then otherwise minor gunshots should potentially sever arteries or puncture lungs, short falls should twist ankles hampering movement, and eating all that soy junk food should have a random chance of causing a character to have a heart attack. It's just common sense.

If your cyberware starts emitting smoke and sparks glaringly, especially eyes, you should suffer from Visibility and Glare Environmental Modifier as defined on page 175.

Well if your cybereyes are bricked, you're not too worried about visibility modifiers.

[DeathStrobe]

And I disagree with you on that premise. Some things are just common sense, and fire shooting from your eyes because your Cybereyes just got bricked, resulting in it blinding you, and possibly killing you, is one of them (at a minimum, you will need new eyes). Brick someone's Wired Reflexes and that is death, plain and simple.

But wired reflexes isn't a replacement of your nervous system. Its a bunch of wires overlaying your nerves that just so happen to also transmit data faster to boot. You can actually turn off your wired reflexes and a character doesn't just immediately die. You just want bricking ware to be so incredibly powerful and game breaking to help reinforce your dislike of the mechanic, but there is nothing to support that it is that way. Personally, I'd prefer it to work that way, because that sounds really cool. But currently the mechanics don't support your interpretation.

[RHat]

And I disagree with you on that premise. Some things are just common sense, and fire shooting from your eyes because your Cybereyes just got bricked, resulting in it blinding you, and possibly killing you, is one of them (at a minimum, you will need new eyes). Brick someone's Wired Reflexes and that is death, plain and simple.

Fluff does not get to create new mechanics. Thr fluff on bricking should not say what it says (as it presently creates a false implication),
but that does not in any way change the bricking mechanics.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Then otherwise minor gunshots should potentially sever arteries or puncture lungs, short falls should twist ankles hampering movement, and eating all that soy junk food should have a random chance of causing a character to have a heart attack. It's just common sense.

Except that you are wrong here because both you and I can cite chapter and verse where that would not apply.
Please talk to any 1st year Medical Student, though, and have them describe to you, in detail, what the outcome would be if your nervous system were to suddenly combust. I can guarantee you that it would not be pretty, and you would not survive it.

[KarmaInferno]

Gamist versus Simulationist, anyone?


-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Gamist versus Simulationist, anyone?


-k

Fluff vs. Mecahnics... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
If the Mechanics were never intended to simulate the Fluff, then the Fluff should never have been written the way it was. *shrug*

Again, it falls back on the Developers and the Haphazard way the book was put together.