[X] My Assistant

[Smash]

Dude, 31,000 people a year in the US die due to chronic liver disease and cirrhosis, ie they mostly drank themselves to death. Do you see a big renaissance for the Woman's Christian Temperance Union soon?

One time spectacular events that grab attention have huge abilities to get people (voters, shareholders) to insist that the people in charge DO SOMETHING about them and as a result governments (and pseudo-governments) start to take aggressive steps to ensure that they don't happen again and also that people know they are dealing with them.

Events that kill millions and impoverish tens of millions have a really huge impact.

Which is why the idea that nobody cares of about crash 1.0 or crash 2.0 is absurd. It's like claiming that nobody remembers what Auschwitz or Treblinka was because that was over 10 years ago.

I don't really want to get into a gun control debate but I would consider say Sandy Hook as a pretty horrific memorable event. Boston Bombings? People just dealt with it and got on with their lives.

To your Auschwitz example. Do you seriously think that time hasn't dulled the impact of these events? There are plenty of people out there who argue that it never even happened or was exaggerated (let me clarify that I am not one of them). People still hate Jews for the exact same reasons that they were persecuted during WW2. In my own life I had to deal with someone who wouldn't accept payment to a bank deposit because of the (in his words) 'Zionist Banking system'.

Either way, Matrix crashes have almost nothing to do with device hacking vulnerability. The fact is that your trauma patch is wireless which implies that people are ok with wireless functionality.

More to the point, I don't actually care if you as a runner choose to be over-paranoid and never turn your wireless on. That's up to you. What people should realise though is that most NPCs aren't going to share your paranoia. Your Decker is standing around just waiting to protect your gear. Why not use him?

[Smash]

Realism is not the issue. The issue is that the setting be self-consistent; i.e., that it make sense according to its own rules. Wireless bonuses and the ability to brick hardware, as written, break self-consistency. The actions that people in the Sixth World are depicted taking do not make sense in the context of the setting.

Is that really the issue for you though? Let's look outside how wireless works for the moment. The intent is that Deckers are an archetype that can attack you through your devices and cyberware. Whether it be wireless, magic or whatever. Are you going to be ok with a system where your favourite archetype is vulnerable to this kind of manipulation?

It's clear from the writers point of view that they don't want a system like 4th ed where you can easily and simply remove yourself from being hacked. If you're approaching the issue from the point of view that as a Samurai I just want to be able to remove myself from this avenue of attack then arguments of realism are disingenuous.

So if we can approach this issue from the point of view that devices are going to be vulnerable to hacking then what needs to be done to make the pay-off worth it? Do the bonuses simply need to be better?

[Dolanar]

I am not a fan of relying on someone else for my own basic security as a preset feature. I want to be able to decide "Ok, so & so can defend me in X way better than I can, so its the better option" Honestly, allow me to use some basic programs to defend myself & I will be more appeased about all of this new stuff, because then I can decide if I want to take my chances with my suped up commlink or just leave it to the Decker.

[RHat]

I am not a fan of relying on someone else for my own basic security as a preset feature. I want to be able to decide "Ok, so & so can defend me in X way better than I can, so its the better option" Honestly, allow me to use some basic programs to defend myself & I will be more appeased about all of this new stuff, because then I can decide if I want to take my chances with my suped up commlink or just leave it to the Decker.

Isn't that pretty much exactly what a Rating 7 Commlink does for you? Hell, it'll even damage the opposition for you (Failed attack actions result in damage coming back to the decker with no resistance roll - if you win by 4 hits, he eats 4 Matrix Damage). And given that the Mental Attribute used to opposed is Intuition, which a Sam already wants to have high, it's pretty easy for a Street Sam to end up with 12-13 dice to defend with.

It would be nice if there was a good "bridge" available, though - though at the very least you'd still need to pick up Cybercombat. That, and commprograms for the non-Matrix specialist would be a good thing.

[Erik Baird]

Is that really the issue for you though? Let's look outside how wireless works for the moment. The intent is that Deckers are an archetype that can attack you through your devices and cyberware. Whether it be wireless, magic or whatever. Are you going to be ok with a system where your favourite archetype is vulnerable to this kind of manipulation?

Nope. I'm playing Shadowrun, not Ghost in the Shell. If said decker wants to attack something that has a legitimate reason to be connected to the Matrix or have a radio connection, then so be it. Cyberware that lets the brain talk to the leg muscles faster, interpret targeting data, or access skillsofts doesn't have such a reason. Stuff that can receive GPS signals, integrate remotely with a vehicle, or is an actual headware radio or cell phone does. So would a medkit that accesses a remote database.

It's clear from the writers point of view that they don't want a system like 4th ed where you can easily and simply remove yourself from being hacked. If you're approaching the issue from the point of view that as a Samurai I just want to be able to remove myself from this avenue of attack then arguments of realism are disingenuous.

So... Gameplay! The writers have (allegedly) decided that they don't want other characters to be immune to certain attacks, so everything is vulnerable by fiat, irrespective of in-game logic and consistency. I wonder how they'll make mages vulnerable to decking?

So if we can approach this issue from the point of view that devices are going to be vulnerable to hacking then what needs to be done to make the pay-off worth it? Do the bonuses simply need to be better?

I disagree with your premise.

[binarywraith]

whatever the issue, we wont really KNOW until we see the matrix book. the worst problems will hopefully be addressed then. probably with a new piece of gear to buy or a new program to run. the matrix rules (and thus bricking cyberware) are incomplete as yet.

Then they shouldn't have been published.

[RHat]

I disagree with your premise.

If said decker wants to attack something that has a legitimate reason to be connected to the Matrix or have a radio connection, then so be it.

It certainly doesn't look like you disagree with the premise that if gear is meant to be hackable it should get sufficient benefit from being online (as that would, per definition, constitute a legitimate reason to be connected to the Matrix). That's the only premise in the quote.

[Erik Baird]

What I disagree with is the idea that stuff should connect to the Matrix just because. I think any external connections should be linked to the inherent function of the device, not as a gimmick, and there should not be special bonuses as a trade off. Either something needs to connect with other devices remotely to function, or it doesn't.

[RHat]

What I disagree with is the idea that stuff should connect to the Matrix just because.

Which is nowhere in what he said. To paraphrase, the question is "if things are going to be connected to the Matrix, what would be sufficient reason so that it's not 'just because'?".

[Erik Baird]

His statement was:

So if we can approach this issue from the point of view that devices are going to be vulnerable to hacking then what needs to be done to make the pay-off worth it? Do the bonuses simply need to be better?

There is an implicit statement in there that says that everything that has electronics will be accessible remotely. It is my opinion that this is a false premise because most devices, especially cyberware, have no reason to be accessible remotely. There should not be any bonus for connecting nor penalty for not connecting; either a device needs a connection or it does not.



Or to put it another way, assuming everything must use Matrix/wireless connections to function properly is kinda (if you squint really hard) like asking your buddy if he's stopped beating his wife (which assumes that he ever did).

[Rystefn]

So you're saying that nothing should come in grades of effectiveness? Because I have about twenty things on my desk that work without being connected to the internet and work better when they are connected to the internet. Either it needs a connection or it does not is overly reductionist at best, and transparrently so if you think about it for ten seconds.

[Udoshi]

Over 10 years ago a group of fanatics killed 2,977 people one morning in NYC, Pennsylvania and Virgina. Far less then was killed by a group of fanatics in Crash 2.0. So of course everyone has forgotten about it. There is no huge goverment department of Homeland Security. The NSA isn't tapping every phone call in the entire country. It's easy to get on airplanes as nobody insists you step into a full body scanner to check you for weapons and your family and friends can accompany you to the gate. Right?

I have to say I agree with this.

9/11 happened in 2001. twelve years ago, and it STILL shapes the political field of today.

Crash 2 was 2064, and its eight years is even shorter.


If anything, GOD going 'oh no the matrix is totally secure now yeah guys, let us watch over allllll your personal data and transactions forever' will be about as effective, and well recieved by the public, as the TSA.

[Epicedion]

I have to say I agree with this.

9/11 happened in 2001. twelve years ago, and it STILL shapes the political field of today.

Crash 2 was 2064, and its eight years is even shorter.


If anything, GOD going 'oh no the matrix is totally secure now yeah guys, let us watch over allllll your personal data and transactions forever' will be about as effective, and well recieved by the public, as the TSA.

Yet we still get in airplanes and go into tall buildings.

[Smash]

His statement was:

There is an implicit statement in there that says that everything that has electronics will be accessible remotely. It is my opinion that this is a false premise because most devices, especially cyberware, have no reason to be accessible remotely. There should not be any bonus for connecting nor penalty for not connecting; either a device needs a connection or it does not.

Or to put it another way, assuming everything must use Matrix/wireless connections to function properly is kinda (if you squint really hard) like asking your buddy if he's stopped beating his wife (which assumes that he ever did).

That we THINK most devices shouldn't need wireless is not the point. The FACT is that they do, it's the intent of the designers, it's not an oversight. So if we're going to approach the subject that we don't think it should work because of LOGIC the conclusion is that the designers (if they act at all) will just come up with some pseudo technology to make the logical arguments go away.

If you want to argue that Deckers shouldn't be able to worry Samurai then we you should approach it from that avenue, whether it be driven by concept or balance. The problem with this is that Decking, and by extension the matrix, is one of the most important aspects of the game and yet in almost all previous editions it was the most glossed over part because either a) it just took to long to hack nodes, b) the rules were too complicated or, c) people just don't want to play the nerd who hides in the van and turns off the security cameras so all the hardcore mofos played by everyone else can have all the fun.

This is why the writers have dreamed up cyberware hacking and ways of combating it. It makes Deckers more fun to play and provides more strategic and tactical depth to the game. This isn't to say that the rules are written are perfect. If the benefit of wireless is easily forgone for security reasons then perhaps the bonuses need to be improved? My solution will just be to run games that allay people's fears. If they can do 80% of runs with little threat from Deckers then the pay-off starts to balance out.

[kzt]

Well, yes, is is true that that is the intent. What they want is for the hacker to be an integral part of the game, and for the action of this integral part of the game to be able to use their "special hacking stuff" in combat. This concept isn't stupid, however most people on dumpshock seem to basically think their actual approach to achieving this to be stupid. It maybe not be as bad as the Port of Bogota, or the Neo-Nazi Jewbuster adventure, but still pretty bad.

Truthfully it has never really bothered me that the best plan for a hacker in combat was to use a gun and to shoot people in the face, but it clearly does bother some people.

So if you want the hacker to do "hacker stuff" in combat and not be dumb you have to expand what this means from messing with devices after a long series of die rolls (each taking an action) to being more like what a mage does. Likely the best way to make it actually work requires something more like Frank Trollman's brain hacking stuff. At this point the hacker can actually do things directly to opposing people. He's not trying to eject a magazine from their pistol, he's trying to inject concepts into their brain or cause them to fall down in convulsions.

It would also kind of be nice if the game had a functioning framework and rules for computer hacking, but since SR never has one worth a damn I won't blame this too much on the current crop of writers.

[Epicedion]

Truthfully it has never really bothered me that the best plan for a hacker in combat was to use a gun and to shoot people in the face

This is generally still the best option. Hacking gear is an option, but a secondary (or otherwise non-combat) goal at best. There may be situations where it's better than shooting, but shooting is still likely to be the best possible option.

[Emil Barr]

The problem with this is that Decking, and by extension the matrix, is one of the most important aspects of the game and yet in almost all previous editions it was the most glossed over part because either a) it just took to long to hack nodes, b) the rules were too complicated or, c) people just don't want to play the nerd who hides in the van and turns off the security cameras so all the hardcore mofos played by everyone else can have all the fun

If a player is having trouble being a hardcore mofo ( I assume you mean killing people) through decking, they probably have trouble thinking outside of the box in general.

Locking the doors and turning on a rooms Halon or CO2 fire suppression system for instance.

Giving elevator occupants a ride on The Tower of Terror.

Messing with autoturret/drone targetting

[Quote] This is generally still the best option. Hacking gear is an option, but a secondary (or otherwise non-combat) goal at best.[/quite]

Yeah, its probably rarely going to happen. Risk vs Reward just doesnt make it worth it most of the time. Which is why I stopped getting mad about it. Makes me wonder why they introduced the mechanic at all.

In the end, I guess it will at least be used more than a bards countersong. Hooray?

[Emil Barr]

*oops double post*

[Sendaz]

I wonder how they'll make mages vulnerable to decking?.

There are rumours of the new Wiz-Fi system coming soon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Is that really the issue for you though? Let's look outside how wireless works for the moment. The intent is that Deckers are an archetype that can attack you through your devices and cyberware. Whether it be wireless, magic or whatever. Are you going to be ok with a system where your favourite archetype is vulnerable to this kind of manipulation?

It's clear from the writers point of view that they don't want a system like 4th ed where you can easily and simply remove yourself from being hacked. If you're approaching the issue from the point of view that as a Samurai I just want to be able to remove myself from this avenue of attack then arguments of realism are disingenuous.

So if we can approach this issue from the point of view that devices are going to be vulnerable to hacking then what needs to be done to make the pay-off worth it? Do the bonuses simply need to be better?

You miss the point, Smash. Even in 5th Edition, one can easily and simply remove themselves from being hacked. That is not the Issue at all. The issue is that the writer who implemented the Wireless Bonuses did not do so from a sense of reality. By his own words, he chose Cool over Realism/world consistency, and the bonuses are just stupid. And then, when those pieces of writing hit the Line Developers Desk, he just rubber stamped them without actually reading them (obviously) because that was what he wanted... His mandate was to make the Hacker more useful in combat, regardless of the fact that the Hacker often had more to do than almost any other archetype out there. Sad fact is... he chose poorly.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yet we still get in airplanes and go into tall buildings.

You might.... I do not. *shrug*
More because it is not a necessity for my life, but there you go.

[mister__joshua]

You might.... I do not. *shrug*
More because it is not a necessity for my life, but there you go.

I think he meant *we* as a race/culture/species

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think he meant *we* as a race/culture/species

Probably... But People (as a whole) are stupid, while individuals may or may not be. If you can avoid (or heavily minimize) terrible things by taking precautions, why would you not? As a professional Criminal, the Shadowrunner (in SR5) who broadcasts wireless is just asking to eat a bullet, or have his equipment bricked. That is stupidity on an epic scale, but is probably why Shadowrunners life expectancy is less than a year. The stupid ones get killed quickly, and the ones who are not, get killed less quickly. Those who take the most precautions last the longest. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[mister__joshua]

Probably... But People (as a whole) are stupid, while individuals may or may not be. If you can avoid (or heavily minimize) terrible things by taking precautions, why would you not?

Why indeed. But I do believe you've, accidentally, summarized this whole thread quite well. At then end of the day it's not really about whether 'runners take precautions like turning off wireless, that's up to them. It's whether other people do. And people are stupid, careless, ignorant and apathetic.

When talking about standard security guards for example, I'd say the majority fall into one or more of those categories, and thus usually run wireless on all the time. The odd guard who's always nagging his colleagues about the dangers of wireless and why they shouldn't do it will one day be proven right, but by then it's too late for his friends.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why indeed. But I do believe you've, accidentally, summarized this whole thread quite well. At then end of the day it's not really about whether 'runners take precautions like turning off wireless, that's up to them. It's whether other people do. And people are stupid, careless, ignorant and apathetic.

When talking about standard security guards for example, I'd say the majority fall into one or more of those categories, and thus usually run wireless on all the time. The odd guard who's always nagging his colleagues about the dangers of wireless and why they shouldn't do it will one day be proven right, but by then it's too late for his friends.

Wasn't accidental... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Point is that the Wireless Issue is not about what everyone ELSE does, they are irrelevant. What matters is what the People at Secure Facilities (and the Shadowrunners who infiltrate them) do. And as such, the Wireless Model advanced by the Current Line Developer is bad... There is absolutely no Risk vs. Reward going on here. It was simply a decision, made by developers, to advance an agenda that had no need of being advanced. And it was done Poorly to boot. There is a world of difference between having wireless communications, and having the stupidity that we have in SR5. And that is the Issue here.