[X] My Assistant

[Erik Baird]

So you're saying that nothing should come in grades of effectiveness? Because I have about twenty things on my desk that work without being connected to the internet and work better when they are connected to the internet. Either it needs a connection or it does not is overly reductionist at best, and transparrently so if you think about it for ten seconds.

Grades of effectiveness? Sure. There's a difference between a Yugo and a Cadillac.

Out of curiosity, what devices would those be? The only connected devices I use are a cell phone and a PC, and I wouldn't say that the PC works better just because it has an Internet connection.

That we THINK most devices shouldn't need wireless is not the point. The FACT is that they do, it's the intent of the designers, it's not an oversight. So if we're going to approach the subject that we don't think it should work because of LOGIC the conclusion is that the designers (if they act at all) will just come up with some pseudo technology to make the logical arguments go away.

If you want to argue that Deckers shouldn't be able to worry Samurai then we you should approach it from that avenue, whether it be driven by concept or balance. The problem with this is that Decking, and by extension the matrix, is one of the most important aspects of the game and yet in almost all previous editions it was the most glossed over part because either a) it just took to long to hack nodes, b) the rules were too complicated or, c) people just don't want to play the nerd who hides in the van and turns off the security cameras so all the hardcore mofos played by everyone else can have all the fun.

This is why the writers have dreamed up cyberware hacking and ways of combating it. It makes Deckers more fun to play and provides more strategic and tactical depth to the game. This isn't to say that the rules are written are perfect. If the benefit of wireless is easily forgone for security reasons then perhaps the bonuses need to be improved? My solution will just be to run games that allay people's fears. If they can do 80% of runs with little threat from Deckers then the pay-off starts to balance out.

FWIW, I thought midichlorians were stupid, too. Personally, I always thought the solution to deckers being weak in combat was an SMG and a few points in the skill or devious tricks like the ones listed above.

[Remnar]

Wasn't accidental... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Point is that the Wireless Issue is not about what everyone ELSE does, they are irrelevant. What matters is what the People at Secure Facilities (and the Shadowrunners who infiltrate them) do. And as such, the Wireless Model advanced by the Current Line Developer is bad... There is absolutely no Risk vs. Reward going on here. It was simply a decision, made by developers, to advance an agenda that had no need of being advanced. And it was done Poorly to boot. There is a world of difference between having wireless communications, and having the stupidity that we have in SR5. And that is the Issue here.

This I agree with. Wireless everything makes sense for the "every Joe" who believes GOD when they tell him/her that they can just leave their wireless on all their stuff and GOD will protect.

It does not make sense for any profession/lifestyle that deals regularily with high security or technologically advanced criminals... .i.e. everything that Shadowrun PCs are about.

[Remnar]

FWIW, I thought midichlorians were stupid, too. Personally, I always thought the solution to deckers being weak in combat was an SMG and a few points in the skill or devious tricks like the ones listed above.

In 3rd ed. that's pretty much what all my deckers did. Didn't take all that much extra nuyen to toss Wired 1 and Muscle Replacement 2 and grab a skill of 4 or 5 in SMGs. I never had problems cracking systems or popping security myself. 4th seemed to have made it easier even still to get good combat skills mixed with decking skills.

5th its a little trickier to get the correct priorities to make it work, so far, however.

[RHat]

His statement was:


There is an implicit statement in there that says that everything that has electronics will be accessible remotely. It is my opinion that this is a false premise because most devices, especially cyberware, have no reason to be accessible remotely. There should not be any bonus for connecting nor penalty for not connecting; either a device needs a connection or it does not.



Or to put it another way, assuming everything must use Matrix/wireless connections to function properly is kinda (if you squint really hard) like asking your buddy if he's stopped beating his wife (which assumes that he ever did).

Yeah, you can't actually disagree with that because it isn't a premise. A statement like that defines the space for the argument, and in this case, that space is an environment where that thing is true. Any ideas that you have on what the actual truth value is or should be are not relevant. The question is, in the environment where that is true, what does it take for that to make sense? You've implied a partial answer already - a sufficient reason for being accessible remotely would have to exist for each piece of gear. That then leads to the question "What is a sufficient reason?", hence the question of whether the bonuses need to be better.

The only connected devices I use are a cell phone and a PC, and I wouldn't say that the PC works better just because it has an Internet connection.

Really? A lot of the software I use loses a lot of functionality without internet access, and attempting to program without an internet connection would be a horribly frustrating task (not being able to access non-local documentation would suuuuuuck). For most tasks, the ability to jump over to Google and look something up is a very useful thing.

[Remnar]

Really? A lot of the software I use loses a lot of functionality without internet access, and attempting to program without an internet connection would be a horribly frustrating task (not being able to access non-local documentation would suuuuuuck). For most tasks, the ability to jump over to Google and look something up is a very useful thing.

Heh, I remember those days. It did suck.

[RHat]

Heh, I remember those days. It did suck.

... I will admit that I have some books sitting on the shelf for that dark and terrible day when I have no choice. Which I am absolutely certain will not cover all the libraries I'll need.

[Remnar]

... I will admit that I have some books sitting on the shelf for that dark and terrible day when I have no choice. Which I am absolutely certain will not cover all the libraries I'll need.

Mine all vanished long ago. Then again I haven't had or tried to write code in .. well, it looks like at least ten years now. Crap, where'd that time go?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Really? A lot of the software I use loses a lot of functionality without internet access, and attempting to program without an internet connection would be a horribly frustrating task (not being able to access non-local documentation would suuuuuuck). For most tasks, the ability to jump over to Google and look something up is a very useful thing.

I have not one piece of software that requires me to be online. I do visit some online sites, to be sure (Dumpshock being one of them), but nothing requires me to do so.

And there is absolutley no need to go online to program, either (though it might indeed be a handy tool). If you need to access that [programming] information on any sort of consistent basis, why is it not Local (or in a printed format of some sort)? I would agree that being able to perform a data search on a whim is handy, but hardly a requirement or a necessity. I get along just fine with no online access other than a PC (yes, that means I do not have any type of phone that is cellular/wireless, nor any other device that would require such connections - no nook, no kindle, not even a laptop that is wireless). People can survive, work, and even play without having to have wireless communications shoved into their faces 24/7/365. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kzt]

Locking the doors and turning on a rooms Halon or CO2 fire suppression system for instance.

Halon (or the various "clean agent" replacements) are not seriously harmful to people in the space. A CO2 total flooding system can be horribly lethal, particularly if the pre-discharge alarms don't go off. For example, the CO2 discharge also fills the room with opaque clouds due to condensation, which makes it hard to find your way out and the C02 concentration rapids reaches lethal levels. After the Idaho National Lab accident it's generally arranged so that CO2 gas discharge drive sirens so there is always some sort of alarm. But it doesn't have to be that way.

[Emil Barr]

Halon (or the various "clean agent" replacements) are not seriously harmful to people in the space. A CO2 total flooding system can be horribly lethal, particularly if the pre-discharge alarms don't go off. For example, the CO2 discharge also fills the room with opaque clouds due to condensation, which makes it hard to find your way out and the C02 concentration rapids reaches lethal levels. After the Idaho National Lab accident it's generally arranged so that CO2 gas discharge drive sirens so there is always some sort of alarm. But it doesn't have to be that way.

Halon gas itself isnt particularly harmful to people, but it displaces oxygen. The occupants would die of suffocation.

[Nath]

If you want to argue that Deckers shouldn't be able to worry Samurai then we you should approach it from that avenue, whether it be driven by concept or balance. The problem with this is that Decking, and by extension the matrix, is one of the most important aspects of the game and yet in almost all previous editions it was the most glossed over part because either a) it just took to long to hack nodes, b) the rules were too complicated or, c) people just don't want to play the nerd who hides in the van and turns off the security cameras so all the hardcore mofos played by everyone else can have all the fun.

I see an interesting contradiction here. I mean, how come the Matrix was "one of the most important aspects of the game" if it was "glossed over"?

SR authors maybe wanted the Matrix to be one the most important aspects of the game, because it was a staple of the cyberpunk genre they wanted for the game. But they failed to make it so. Sure, they made it an important aspect of the setting. They made it an important aspect of some adventures' narrative structure. But the map is not the territory and the book is not the game. Because of the rules, GM and players avoided making the Matrix a too much important aspect of their game, even when they were fans of the cyberpunk genre as well.

The difference with the 5th edition is that it was first decided what was wanted for the game, then the setting and the genre were altered to match. Having every object connected to the network wasn't the point in itself (even if it fits within our expectations for the future). It was merely a mean to achieve the goal of giving deckers things to do.

[kzt]

Halon gas itself isnt particularly harmful to people, but it displaces oxygen. The occupants would die of suffocation.

No, it is an effective extinguishing agent at rather low concentrations. You probably don't want to do an aerobics class in there, but you can breath fine. If you actually have a fire there are some nasty compounds that get created by heat on the gas, but fires themselves do lots of those too.

CO2 both displaces air and is a poison at the kind of concentrations used for a total flooding system.

[kzt]

I see an interesting contradiction here. I mean, how come the Matrix was "one of the most important aspects of the game" if it was "glossed over"?

SR authors maybe wanted the Matrix to be one the most important aspects of the game, because it was a staple of the cyberpunk genre they wanted for the game. But they failed to make it so. Sure, they made it an important aspect of the setting. They made it an important aspect of some adventures' narrative structure. But the map is not the territory and the book is not the game. Because of the rules, GM and players avoided making the Matrix a too much important aspect of their game, even when they were fans of the cyberpunk genre as well.

The difference with the 5th edition is that it was first decided what was wanted for the game, then the setting and the genre were altered to match. Having every object connected to the network wasn't the point in itself (even if it fits within our expectations for the future). It was merely a mean to achieve the goal of giving deckers things to do.

It's really damn hard to write decent computer rules. We've seen people try it in multiple version of SR and multiple other games and they pretty much all suck. Part of it is that the rules we see tend to be written by worshipers of Mr Mechanical Typewriter, but part of it is that it's just hard.

[Emil Barr]

No, it is an effective extinguishing agent at rather low concentrations. You probably don't want to do an aerobics class in there, but you can breath fine. If you actually have a fire there are some nasty compounds that get created by heat on the gas, but fires themselves do lots of those too.

CO2 both displaces air and is a poison at the kind of concentrations used for a total flooding system.

As it would be the Deckers goal to either kill or incapacitate the occupants, I imagine they would continue flooding the room until the necessary concentration is achieved., assuming the necessary amount of gas is available.

[Smash]

I see an interesting contradiction here. I mean, how come the Matrix was "one of the most important aspects of the game" if it was "glossed over"?

SR authors maybe wanted the Matrix to be one the most important aspects of the game, because it was a staple of the cyberpunk genre they wanted for the game. But they failed to make it so. Sure, they made it an important aspect of the setting. They made it an important aspect of some adventures' narrative structure. But the map is not the territory and the book is not the game. Because of the rules, GM and players avoided making the Matrix a too much important aspect of their game, even when they were fans of the cyberpunk genre as well.

It's glossed over by the players, not the writers. Almost all Shadowruns realistically require a Decker but for the most part I'd say the majority of groups tend to just handwave the mechanics so no-one has to play one. That may not be true for say your or my table (although I've witnessed it at plenty of others), but it's pretty clear that that's a sentiment shared by a large proportion of players.

The difference with the 5th edition is that it was first decided what was wanted for the game, then the setting and the genre were altered to match. Having every object connected to the network wasn't the point in itself (even if it fits within our expectations for the future). It was merely a mean to achieve the goal of giving deckers things to do.

4th Ed certainly had every toaster and shower-curtain being wireless, so that isn't a change specific to 5th Ed.

[Smash]

I have not one piece of software that requires me to be online. I do visit some online sites, to be sure (Dumpshock being one of them), but nothing requires me to do so.

And there is absolutley no need to go online to program, either (though it might indeed be a handy tool). If you need to access that [programming] information on any sort of consistent basis, why is it not Local (or in a printed format of some sort)? I would agree that being able to perform a data search on a whim is handy, but hardly a requirement or a necessity. I get along just fine with no online access other than a PC (yes, that means I do not have any type of phone that is cellular/wireless, nor any other device that would require such connections - no nook, no kindle, not even a laptop that is wireless). People can survive, work, and even play without having to have wireless communications shoved into their faces 24/7/365. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Tymeaus, I'm not sure that you can classify the behaviour of the masses based on the fact that you personally have not embraced the 21st century. Yes, the Shadowrun universe will include paranoid people but the exceptions don't prove the rule.

There are probably plenty of behaviours you do that are not safety/security best practice. Yes, you are not online all the time, this makes you more secure, but do you:

Lock all your windows and doors at night or when you leave the house
Lock away your valuables in a safe if you go away for a few days
Use bank or credit cards at exposed ATMs
Use Any forms of social media
Use gmail/hotmail/yahoo mail
Shred all correspondence that include your name and address
Only put your garbage out the morning of collection
Heed all travel warnings before travelling overseas
Look up social no-nos before going overseas
Use life jackets everytime you look at the water
Have grippy things in your shower to stop slippage
get on a plane is it anything besides QANTAS?
wear a seatbelt and helmet in the car
Ride a motorcycle (helmet or not)

and that list is hardly exhaustive, but depending on how you answer each one of those you maybe taking risk that can be easily mitigated. The fact is that you either subconsciously do a risk assessment and decide that the risk is worth taking or you are simply unaware of said risk.

Shadowrun should be exactly the same. At different times you should want to do all of:

1) Have your wireless on for the bonuses
2) Have it on with Matrix overwatch
3) Have it off for the security purposes.

Campain wise option 3 should only really be necessary with prior knowledge of an elite Decker, Technomancer or AI. Otherwise you should be relatively safe using options 1 or 2.

The opposition are in exactly the same boat. The don't come accross shadowrunners every day. More often then not they are suppressing riots, kicking disgruntled employees off their premises, prevent petty theft/vandalism by go-gangers, etc. They benefit in all these scenarios from having their wireless on.

[Sendaz]

Toaster

Wireless bonus: +3 to all CHA tests with NetCat


Shower Curtain

Wireless Bonus: Can change opacity at most inconvenient time, especially for NetCat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeaus, I'm not sure that you can classify the behaviour of the masses based on the fact that you personally have not embraced the 21st century. Yes, the Shadowrun universe will include paranoid people but the exceptions don't prove the rule.

Except that I am not alone... I know a LOT of people who feel the same way. I also know a lot of people who would be effectively crippled without their everpresent WiFi too... *shrug*

You are right that the 2070's are/will be different, but in the Small Demographic that makes up the shadowrunner community, embracing the wireless idiocy (especially with regards to Cyberware) will get you killed... Who cares what the rest of humanity does, it is that small demographic that we are playing. And if the professionals in that demographic have no cares about Cyberware being online, well, then they are stupid. No other way to really say that...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Toaster

Wireless bonus: +3 to all CHA tests with NetCat


Shower Curtain

Wireless Bonus: Can change opacity at most inconvenient time, especially for NetCat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

"I'd buy that for a dollar... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) "

[Smash]

In 3rd ed. that's pretty much what all my deckers did. Didn't take all that much extra nuyen to toss Wired 1 and Muscle Replacement 2 and grab a skill of 4 or 5 in SMGs. I never had problems cracking systems or popping security myself. 4th seemed to have made it easier even still to get good combat skills mixed with decking skills.

5th its a little trickier to get the correct priorities to make it work, so far, however.

Have you seen how much decks cost now?

[Epicedion]

Have you seen how much decks cost now?

.. less than they cost in SR3? Especially considering programs.

[Nath]

The difference with the 5th edition is that it was first decided what was wanted for the game, then the setting and the genre were altered to match. Having every object connected to the network wasn't the point in itself (even if it fits within our expectations for the future). It was merely a mean to achieve the goal of giving deckers things to do.

4th Ed certainly had every toaster and shower-curtain being wireless, so that isn't a change specific to 5th Ed.

The difference I was pointing at is the way it was designed.

I am under the impression that in the 4th edition, the fundamental idea was that we were having a growing number of wireless devices in Real Life, so they put wireless device all over the Matrix, and then wrote rules that accounted for them, which you were supposed to use. Basically, it was setting -> rules -> game. And the rules were really just accounting for the existence of wireless devices, through the Electronic Warfare skill and a handful of program and Matrix actions. The 3rd edition actually already had wireless devices, but it simply changed your I/O speed and it did not allow for proximity hacking. It's not wireless devices that made SR4 Matrix different, it's meshed networks and proximity access (though you might argue that mesh performance is sub-par without large numbers of wireless devices).

In the 5th edition, the fundamental idea was that hackers/deckers needed things to hack, then rules were written in a way that make sure or at least strongly enticed to have things to be online and hackable, and the setting will possibly be adjusted to account for it. So hackers will be a rarer breed and the common people will feel safe on the Matrix (*). So it goes the other way, game -> rules -> setting.

( * BTW, the 2064 is far from being the most recent issue people might have with the Matrix ; even if some dislike it, canon has it that the focus for the entire year 2070 was the technomancer and AI threat -with 500 deaths in a single night in Hong Kong, and a two-months long hostage situation in space with the threat of a global biological attack triggered by an AI- and in the following years technomancers sent Geneva back to the 20th Century and sparked riots in Las Vegas).

[Remnar]

Have you seen how much decks cost now?

Exactly why I said "trickier". In 2nd or 3rd edtion, using priorities I was absolutely gonna grab the million since my tricked out deck/progs were gonna cost more than the priority B (my memory is foggy but I feel like I'd usually spend at least 600,000 of my 1,000,000 on Decking stuff). So that was settled, but I usually had enough left for enough ware to go combat and still have decent enough skills.

In 5th priority A for nuyen isn't so much of a no-brainer. You can make a pretty decent decker with B or even C and still have some left over for ware, but for what I'd want on a quasi combat Decker (around 90,000 give or take) I need to decide which, A or B will fit for skills.

[RHat]

And there is absolutley no need to go online to program, either (though it might indeed be a handy tool). If you need to access that [programming] information on any sort of consistent basis, why is it not Local (or in a printed format of some sort)?

I take it, then, that you're not aware of how completely impractical that is? Am I supposed to have every single library for the language I'm working in and all of their dependencies installed, every last piece of documentation, every last piece of information on every last error, and so on locally? Even if I try to do that, the information I'll have on hand WILL be incomplete, and given my luck it will usually be missing the exact thing that I need.

Remember, TJ, the question isn't whether or not stuff can work at all without access. It's whether things can work better with access, and in this case there is absolutely no possible room to argue the point that it does.

Except that I am not alone... I know a LOT of people who feel the same way. I also know a lot of people who would be effectively crippled without their everpresent WiFi too... *shrug*

You are right that the 2070's are/will be different, but in the Small Demographic that makes up the shadowrunner community, embracing the wireless idiocy (especially with regards to Cyberware) will get you killed... Who cares what the rest of humanity does, it is that small demographic that we are playing. And if the professionals in that demographic have no cares about Cyberware being online, well, then they are stupid. No other way to really say that...

You are not currently alone. In 2075 you would be alone. People would have to decide whether or not the benefit is sufficient to the risk, and part of that decision would be the vanishingly low incidence rate, even for runners. At that point, "reasonable precautions" does not usually mean "shut it all down", it means "defend and hide it as best as you can, just in case" - because part of determining what precaution is reasonable is considering what that precaution costs you. There might be times where you choose to go dark, as well, and depending on the reasons that might be for an entire run or it might just be until you go loud. You can have more than one footing on this - just like choosing not to use a silencer once doesn't mean you never use one in your entire career from then on.

Have you seen how much decks cost now?

Yes - 73% of your possible resources at Priority A or B. Leaves you with a pretty good chunk of cash. You CAN use that to build a decent pseudo-sam - but you shouldn't have to any more than the mage or rigger should have to.

[Tanegar]

Yes - 73% of your possible resources at Priority A or B. Leaves you with a pretty good chunk of cash. You CAN use that to build a decent pseudo-sam - but you shouldn't have to any more than the mage or rigger should have to.

Why not? If the mage wants to be useful in combat, he learns Combat spells, or any number of handy buffs. If the rigger wants to be useful in combat, he buys a combat drone. If the face wants to be useful in combat, he buys a gun and learns to use it. Why does the decker need to be able to hack in the middle of a firefight? What, precisely, is wrong with telling a decker who wants to fight to pick up a gun?