[X] My Assistant

[noonesshowmonkey]

While the lockpicking rules are somewhat clear, there doesn't seem to be anything supplied for safecracking.

In my current game, the group has taken down a small warehouse and their second-story woman has come across a small safe secured to the floor and wall under a desk. She has decided to start cracking it, and I need to be able to provide a test-mechanic to model her doing so, especially as it relates to time (they are on a clock).

As of right now, I've gone with (Logic + Lockpicking [Safe Rating], 1 minute) as the test.

Oddly, the book doesn't really define how to bypass a Maglock (it gives clear rules and tests for opening the case or dealing with the anti-tampering circuitry, but not for the actual 'lockpicking' of the maglock itself! Yay! I presume it is (Agility + Lockpicking + Maglock Passkey Rating [Maglock Rating])? But that is another can of worms.) but does describe how to bypass a transponder-embedded key.

I figure that the wallsafe is somewhere between a mechanical lock, a keypad and a maglock, so I set up the test to emulate the difficulty of an embedded key, though I am using the Lockpick skill in place of Hardware. The interval was set by the most difficult of the three types of bypasses.

I think that tying the test to Logic makes good sense, given that the problem at hand, while delicate, is more complex than that of racking a mechanical doorlock or some such. Tying the skill to Lockpicking makes a measure of sense to me, as the safecracker is not likely to be disassembling anything mechanical whilst cracking. To drill, or otherwise mechanically bypass the lock, would be a Hardware test, I think.

Thoughts? Suggestions? What kind of tools should assist in the safecracking?

[kzt]

Is it a real safe, or a metal box with a lock? An if it is a safe, how tough is it? People don't casually stick $15,000 safes rated against cutting torches and explosives under a desk. For one thing they are big and for another they are very heavy.

An actual UL rated high security safe lock (Group 1) is basically impossible to open without doing things like drilling unless you are an expert with all sorts of really cool tools (like xray machines) or are impossibly lucky. They are rated against 20 hours of actual attempts to open it by an expert and typically take longer. The slightly less expensive group 2 locks are openable by someone who has some idea how to structure an attack but will take a while. Like a few hours.

Drilling actual rated safes is hard and you have to know just where to drill, otherwise you can lock the entire thing up forever. 7" rotary grinders or cutting torches are what people who are motivated, prepared and unskilled use. It can still take quite a while (a few minutes to an hour plus - depending on the safe) and possibly make a lot of noise, dust and heat, but you WILL open the damn thing.

If it's a cheap piece of trash that looks like a safe (and there are a lot of these) you can often do things like bypass the lock with a probe that hits the reset button on the electronic lock in under a minute. Recognizing what kind of trash it is and knowing how pop it is what skills are for.

[Jhaiisiin]

Gonna be watching this thread closely. My new face is also going to be the B&E specialist for our new SR5 group, and I just know lockpicking/safe cracking/security bypass will be a consistent thing I'll need to do.

With SR5, I'm not entirely certain it wasn't all just rolled into Lockpicking. Hardware explicitly states it's for the build and repair of electronic devices (such as comlinks, smartguns, and other such things. Locksmith on the other hand deals with the bypassing of any secure locking system. While it doesn't specifically mention safes, it mentions the things safes use. Keypads, combination locks, and even down to voice recognition and the like. So using Hardware no longer seems to fit.

[noonesshowmonkey]

Is it a real safe, or a metal box with a lock? An if it is a safe, how tough is it? People don't casually stick $15,000 safes rated against cutting torches and explosives under a desk...

...Recognizing what kind of trash it is and knowing how pop it is what skills are for.

Thanks for the quick lesson about safes. I had no idea how any of that stuff works in the real world. That said, I am going to try and keep things as Shadowrun (5) as possible, and stick with manageable, real-time, results-oriented tests that characters can try and (maybe) succeed at, rather than lean on the real world for 20+ hours of rated work-time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The contents of the safe, or rather the regular presence of such valuable contents, justify its usage under the desk in question. The warehouse regularly has goods coming and going from it, and it wouldn't be surprising to be asked to hold a small package of some significant value, or be paid in a physical currency or some sort, each demanding secure storage. My players will just have to pop the safe to find out what, if anything, is inside!

Your last point about the skills I think reinforces my usage of the Lockpicking skill, in that the cracking of a secured lock is the eponymous, specific perview of that skill. This is to differentiate it from the assembly / disassembly of a mechanical or electronic system: the Hardware skill.

I think that longer term, more complex, abstractly deep tests should rely on the Logic attribute. Those of the nearer term, leaning more heavily on dexterous manipulation, timing and sensitivity falling under Agility.

In other B&E related news, a character tried to boost a car... Again, a common enough problem in Shadowrun (and one that has spawned uncounted pages of flaming debate!), and yet so little in the way of guidance! I offered an Agility + Lockpicking to open the car door, or a Structure 2, Armor 4 breaking of the windows. From there, a Logic + Hardware test to do the 2070 equivalent to 'hotwiring' the ride.

[Slithery D]

Duh, the wireless is on (bonus: send you an instant messages when the safe is opened), so you just hack it.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[CanRay]

Mungo baughtz da termitez! "That is thermite, Mungo." Dat two!

[Sengir]

Bain's contact man left the thermal drill in the parking lot...oh wait, wrong game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'd say cracking a safe is a good application for a B/R test with Locksmith as the technical skill. Or if you want to drill, "Industrial Mechanic" sounds like it covers drilling through solid steel (and everything else they put in safes).

[Writer]

Just an idea on the topic:

Someone needs to create a spell that turns opaque matter clear.
Then, you could use magic fingers on the tumblers.

[kzt]

Bain's contact man left the thermal drill in the parking lot...oh wait, wrong game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'd say cracking a safe is a good application for a B/R test with Locksmith as the technical skill. Or if you want to drill, "Industrial Mechanic" sounds like it covers drilling through solid steel (and everything else they put in safes).

Locksmith would cover drilling safes. In safe courses they also teach you how to drill them, it's how a safe tech opens a safe when someone has forgotten the combo to a group 1 lock or the lock breaks and the owner doesn't want to buy a new safe.

Drilling a hole in the safe isn't that hard hard. Don't get me wrong, there are things in a modern high security safe to make it a lot harder and take longer then you would think, but with persistence, enough drill bits and drills anyone can put a hole in the door or wall. It's knowing EXACTLY where to drill that matters. Drill in just the right place and you can have it open in a minute after the hole is done. A few mm off and at best you get nothing, at worst you hit something like the tempered glass relocker and the job becomes vastly harder.

[Emil Barr]

You can also assume that the person that owns the safe is a dumbass and left it on the factory combo.

Ive worked in offices where that was the case.

Government offices. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dolanar]

I would suggest a few things.

1. Add the Limit, if it is Logic, go [Mental], Agi? [Physical]

2. If you are cracking a Tumbler based lock system make sure if they choose to, they add their listening boosts from earbuds or such.

[Smash]

Simple. Safes all have maglocks now.

[noonesshowmonkey]

I would suggest a few things.

1. Add the Limit, if it is Logic, go [Mental], Agi? [Physical]

2. If you are cracking a Tumbler based lock system make sure if they choose to, they add their listening boosts from earbuds or such.

Thanks! I totally forgot about Limits. Darned rules changes.

Having the [Physical] Limit I think applies here given that, as smart as you can be about how to do it, you have to do it. Again, I think that the timeline logic works here: short timeline = physical, longer = mental.

[Rystefn]

Figure out a way to wear the safe, then use Fashion to turn it into a grass skirt and all the stuff inside falls out. Fucking Fashion: the most useful spell in the game, if your GM lets you get creative with it.

[Sendaz]

Figure out a way to wear the safe, then use Fashion to turn it into a grass skirt and all the stuff inside falls out. Fucking Fashion: the most useful spell in the game, if your GM lets you get creative with it.

I suppose a Troll could use two safes with some straps glued on as Platform shoes. Does that qualify? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Chinane]

A cheap safe would probably have a cylinder lock or a maglock, maybe both. You'd use lockpicking for the former, electronics for the later. If the lock is slaved to a host you might be able to hack it.

The more sophisticated safes - as mentioned above - will have a proprietary locking mechanism. Your safest bet in that case would be to open it the way it is supposed to be opened (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

[Emil Barr]

When all else fails, C4!

[mister__joshua]

Have they got tools, or just stumbled upon a safe unprepared?

I wouldn't allow a go at cracking the safe without any equipment.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

When all else fails, C4!

Just be carfeul that you do not burn the Effing Money... Clarence really hates that, you know...

[Jhaiisiin]

And he takes off hands and shoots co-workers when he gets upset. Or is having fun. Or both.

[Draco18s]

As of right now, I've gone with (Logic + Lockpicking [Safe Rating], 1 minute) as the test.

I don't see how a higher rated safe makes the test easier.

[Sengir]

Drilling a hole in the safe isn't that hard hard. Don't get me wrong, there are things in a modern high security safe to make it a lot harder and take longer then you would think, but with persistence, enough drill bits and drills anyone can put a hole in the door or wall. It's knowing EXACTLY where to drill that matters. Drill in just the right place and you can have it open in a minute after the hole is done. A few mm off and at best you get nothing, at worst you hit something like the tempered glass relocker and the job becomes vastly harder.

Well, what I meant was the totally stupid approach: Take an industrial drill, angle grinder, or thermal lance and maul the safe until your reach the insides. Not drilling a precise peephole into the lock to open it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[kzt]

Indeed. Tools like 7" grinders are what people seem to use when they need to open the safe and either nobody cares about trying to fix the safe or it's severely damaged and can't be opened any other way. Noisy, dusty and slow, but it will normally work eventually if you have enough disks and time.

Linear shaped charges would probably work faster, but people usually object to having their building trashed by the blast, plus the ATF rules for that kind of explosives are a pain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[noonesshowmonkey]

I don't see how a higher rated safe makes the test easier.

That's because the safe's Rating is the threshold. The higher the rating, the harder the test.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Cracking a safe in-place, if you weren't coming specifically for the sake, is going to be next to impossible.

Cracking a safe if you can rip it out of the floor (such as with a troll, or a magician, or a troll magician,) throw it in the back of the van in a faraday cage and tackle it at your liesure is a matter of having a mechanical tool-shop at your disposal.

Cracking a safe if it's a cheap metal box sold as a safe is simple - lockpicking if it's mechanical, decking/electronics if it's electronic.


Just make sure it's not owned by someone genuinely paranoid. They might have rigged the motherhumper with C12, or at least something to destroy the contents.