[SR5] Direct combat spells and Errata Options

[Glyph]

Machiavelli. I haven't played SR for 20+ years, and I haven't played 5th ed. at this point. But here's a thought: If we ignore what mages did in the past editions of the game, how do they perform in 5th? Are they balanced overall? Do they fulfil a niche and contribute something to the group, that another member isn't also adding? The mentioned Combat spells have been nerfed. Possibly too much. But could it be that the goal has really been to change the role of the mage, and make them more of a flexible tool box that provide capabilities that other stuff doesn't provide, rather than being able to act as heavy weapon platforms in combat? Could it be that the goal has been to let the Combat Character Types be the main badasses in combat, and relegate the mages and deckers to more of a supporting role in this respect of the game?

If they changed a character from a front-line to a support role, then their edition change has failed, at least if they were making any kind of effort to pick up players who played the previous editions. The problem isn't that some things didn't need nerfing; the problem is that the wrong things were nerfed, in the wrong ways. Direct combat spells have always been the quick, go-to, low-Drain choice for sustained combat. They don't need to take an opponent down every single time, but like a heavy pistol, they should still have a good chance of taking an average mook down with a decent dice roll.

Characters also need to be internally balanced, as well as balanced against other character types. When one category of spells is neutered, but more problematic areas (such as spirits or mental manipulation spells) are left alone, then the nerf makes the character less pleasant to play without really fixing any of its problems.

Mages are not alone in this. Street samurai suffer from the revised initiative rules, loss of the ability to shoot twice with two simple actions, loss of the halving of the lower of cyberware or bioware Essence costs, higher costs of the aforementioned 'ware, and be-nerfed-or-be-vulnerable so-called wireless bonuses. It's like SR5 raised the overall power level, then went back and scaled it back again with the most infuriating, fun-killing rules changes. Technomancers got nerfed too hard, mystic adepts are kind of in limbo waiting for eratta... only deckers came out better, except they have to buy expensive, cumbersome decks now, and like a mage with spell defense, they now get stuck with the job of babysitting the group from a threat only a hacker can defend against.

[RHat]

If they changed a character from a front-line to a support role, then their edition change has failed, at least if they were making any kind of effort to pick up players who played the previous editions. The problem isn't that some things didn't need nerfing; the problem is that the wrong things were nerfed, in the wrong ways. Direct combat spells have always been the quick, go-to, low-Drain choice for sustained combat. They don't need to take an opponent down every single time, but like a heavy pistol, they should still have a good chance of taking an average mook down with a decent dice roll.

So what are indirects supposed to be for?

[Jaid]

Mages are not alone in this. Street samurai suffer from the revised initiative rules, loss of the ability to shoot twice with two simple actions, loss of the halving of the lower of cyberware or bioware Essence costs, higher costs of the aforementioned 'ware, and be-nerfed-or-be-vulnerable so-called wireless bonuses. It's like SR5 raised the overall power level, then went back and scaled it back again with the most infuriating, fun-killing rules changes. Technomancers got nerfed too hard, mystic adepts are kind of in limbo waiting for eratta... only deckers came out better, except they have to buy expensive, cumbersome decks now, and like a mage with spell defense, they now get stuck with the job of babysitting the group from a threat only a hacker can defend against.

street samurai got boosted by having their niche given back. you can now make an effective street samurai that is not trivially replaced by another concept. initiative changed for everyone, and street samurai are still quite good at getting many initiative passes. and while they shoot less often, they are also shot at less often... meaning there is a lot less urgency to remove opponents quickly (and if they need to do that, they *can* use a burst to shoot multiple targets, as well). many essence costs were tweaked for SR5, and while some things got quite expensive, other things are still quite readily within reach and not crazy expensive. the wireless stuff is kinda BS, i agree; military-grade cyberware should not be built to function at full capacity only when it has a gigantic unnecessary hole in it's defences. apart from that, street sams came out of the edition change looking much better than they were in SR4.

technomancers got overnerfed, mystic adepts are not hurting, they need an errata to *reduce* their power, not increase it (and even that's not a very harsh nerf from what we've heard; 5 karma instead of 3 for a power point is not something to shed too many tears over), and deckers are doing just fine, the cost of a cyberdeck isn't slowing them down an awful lot.

for the most part, SR5 is just fine. direct combat spells no longer instagibbing everything in sight is not a bad change. there are still other things that could use fixing, but magicians are still extremely powerful in combat and out, and are even capable of making an excellent top-tier front-line combatant. while still retaining a lot of power elsewhere, even if they put a large amount of focus directly into damaging spells.

[Glyph]

So what are indirects supposed to be for?

They are for attacking drones or (indirectly) people behind visual cover. I always found the fluff for their higher Drain to be logical (bringing a physical effect into the real world is much more power intensive than directly zapping someone with magical energy). If direct combat spells were pistols, indirect spells were grenades - less uniformly useful, but better at certain things.

[RHat]

They are for attacking drones or (indirectly) people behind visual cover. I always found the fluff for their higher Drain to be logical (bringing a physical effect into the real world is much more power intensive than directly zapping someone with magical energy). If direct combat spells were pistols, indirect spells were grenades - less uniformly useful, but better at certain things.

Yeah, that's not really a balanced environment between the two. Game-wise, it simply works better for indirect to be the bread-and-butter and directs to be great for difficult targets.

[Chinane]

Easy fix:
The auto-hits are not subject to AP. The dice rolled is (as well as the stun v. physical), but the auto hits themselves are not.

That is, a Force 6 spirit always gets 6 hits on its armor roll, no matter how much AP you use.

Also, the "modified by AP" bit is weird on hardened armor, is it "(Value / 2) + AP" or "(Value + AP)/2"?

Is it really possible to overlook the posts that sketch just how game breakingly powerful spirits are (or actually not to come to that conclusion by oneself?).

Sure, let's make them even more powerful by removing a (PARTIAL) counter to another terribly powerful ability they have.
Just in case you're mathmatically impaired: 6 auto hits translates to 18 dice on average, 24 dice if you're buying hits - the later showing how powerful RELIABLE hits are.

[Chinane]

They are for attacking drones or (indirectly) people behind visual cover. I always found the fluff for their higher Drain to be logical (bringing a physical effect into the real world is much more power intensive than directly zapping someone with magical energy). If direct combat spells were pistols, indirect spells were grenades - less uniformly useful, but better at certain things.

Wrong. That's SR4 - where btw. decent groups tend to houserule direct combat spells.

It seems pretty obvious that now indirect combat spells are supposed to be the default choice and direct combat spells the niche. Elemental effects throwing mages being a lot cooler might have played a part in that decision.

[FuelDrop]

Ok, I want to put in a clarification here: Posting while high on flu medication, so may not be coherent or thought out.

We all want to play our characters how we envision them. We want our subtle manipulation mage to be able to pull a jedi mind trick without anyone noticing. We want our glib face-man to be able to con his way anywhere. We want our demolition expert to be able to make a big boom.

The system is just a set of rules to make sure our imaginings are somewhat on par with those of our friends so when we come together and tell our stories no one person has all of the spotlight. The limits in character creation are there to leave us with room to grow, with something to work towards. The breaks from reality are there because its more enjoyable when your super decker can tell the enemy's guns that they're shooting at the wrong people, rather than having to cower in a corner every time there's a dramatic action scene.

This is why game balance is important. Because everyone should feel equally valuable as part of the team.

This is why a build that is too flexible for too little investment is bad. Because they steal the spotlight time form other players without having to earn it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It seems pretty obvious that now indirect combat spells are supposed to be the default choice and direct combat spells the niche. Elemental effects throwing mages being a lot cooler might have played a part in that decision.

I disagree that Indirect Spells are "Cooler." They are flashier, to be sure, but Flashy does not equal Cool in my book. *shrug*

[Chinane]

I disagree that Indirect Spells are "Cooler." They are flashier, to be sure, but Flashy does not equal Cool in my book. *shrug*

I was talking cinematic effect and all that. Stuff the current developer crew seems to care about predominantly.

Although i have to admit that personally i also prefer the mage that has to be in the open to fry or electrocute people to the one who silently kills them from the comfy chair of his papamobil.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I was talking cinematic effect and all that. Stuff the current developer crew seems to care about predominantly.

Although i have to admit that personally i also prefer the mage that has to be in the open to fry or electrocute people to the one who silently kills them from the comfy chair of his papamobil.

You know... I have played Shadowrun since it came out, and I have NEVER seen a PC Mage kill from the comfy confines of his papamobile. In fact, the only time (and rarely even then) I see such things is with Security Mages in High Security Installations, which is to be expected. Though to be fair, the Remote Mage (In Astral) spamming Spirits to the Physical plane and using them to ground spells was pretty common in SR2. Of course, those were Security Mages too, and not PC's, so...

[Draco18s]

Is it really possible to overlook the posts that sketch just how game breakingly powerful spirits are (or actually not to come to that conclusion by oneself?).

Sure, let's make them even more powerful by removing a (PARTIAL) counter to another terribly powerful ability they have.
Just in case you're mathmatically impaired: 6 auto hits translates to 18 dice on average, 24 dice if you're buying hits - the later showing how powerful RELIABLE hits are.

First off:

Force 4 spirits are not gamebreakingly powerful, and 4 autohits for them is nothing, when the base damage on a gun is 4 on the low end. So you're looking at net-hits vs. hits at this point (and the shooter's got more dice). Annoying on the shooter's part, but not impossible to hurt.

Second:

Spirits below Force 4, namely the Force 1 and Force 2 spirits that should be the bread and butter, get zero armor against any kind of armor piercing round, and they have very few hits on the dodge test.

Third:

Drakes.

Fourth:

Force 6 spirits are really freaking hard to summon. And pretty much can't be bound, ever. Even with 6 auto-hits and 12 armor dice these things are still possible to take down with conventional weapons (anti-vehicular weapons, sure, but come on, it's a freaking tank). On the other hand why the fuck are you using bullets on these things? MAGIC. MAGIC. MAGIC.

People are used to seeing Force 6 and Force 8 spirits being summoned by PC mages because 4th edition did terrible awful things to the powerscale. These were never meant to be the staple spirit in the same way that Force 10 stunbolts were never supposed to be the mage's "gun."

The change I've made boosts the lower end of the spectrum into usefulness and makes the high end scary mofos like they're supposed to be. If F6 is still summonable at the table, then the summoning rules need to be looked at. If the PC is binding them with regularity, then you have a problem player no worse than the cybertroll tank.

[Jaid]

cybertroll tanks are not a problem. that player is no longer given the goal of keeping his own character alive, he's given the goal of persuading the enemies to go after him, thereby keeping everyone *else* alive. furthermore, having a character that is hard to kill means the group can now choose options like having someone charge right through the front lines in desperate situations (i might add that they'll probably have to be *very* desperate situations, because even with a lot of armour you can still suffer death by a thousand cuts if you're not careful).

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah, that's not really a balanced environment between the two. Game-wise, it simply works better for indirect to be the bread-and-butter and directs to be great for difficult targets.

If its not a balanced environment for indirect to be niche vs drones and hit the unseen why is it a balanced environment for direct spells to be hit obscure built like a PC focused on getting missed guy?

They just flipped the imbalance, its just as bad, its does not work better.

[RHat]

If its not a balanced environment for indirect to be niche vs drones and hit the unseen why is it a balanced environment for direct spells to be hit obscure built like a PC focused on getting missed guy?

They just flipped the imbalance, its just as bad, its does not work better.

It's more the difference in the size and meaningfulness of the niche.

[Glyph]

Wrong. That's SR4 - where btw. decent groups tend to houserule direct combat spells.

It seems pretty obvious that now indirect combat spells are supposed to be the default choice and direct combat spells the niche. Elemental effects throwing mages being a lot cooler might have played a part in that decision.

SR4 is what I was talking about. In SR5, it's hard to tell. Indirect spells still have that high Drain. It's more like the mage doesn't have any good default choices - unless it is to forget the whole thing and summon spirits instead.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It's more the difference in the size and meaningfulness of the niche.

Well that is a campaign issue I guess because IMO the direct spells niche in 5e is smaller than the 4es indirect niche. Though I think both are too small to be balanced.

[Epicedion]

Well that is a campaign issue I guess because IMO the direct spells niche in 5e is smaller than the 4es indirect niche. Though I think both are too small to be balanced.

It's not.

SR4 indirect spells cost more and were less effective compared to direct spells.

SR5 indirect spells cost more and are more effective compared to direct spells.

What this means is that with a simple cost (drain) to benefit (damage) analysis, direct spells were the only way to go. Indirect spells in SR4 simply did less damage, were less likely to do any damage, and caused more drain. The only benefits were largely undefined "can cause extra effects" elemental components. Direct spells in SR4 did more damage and were less likely to completely fail, since they didn't involve a dodge roll. Plus they could be cast at ridiculously low drain costs, comparatively.

In SR5, indirect spells now do high damage with the best AP you can find, at the cost of drain and the greater chance of missing. Direct spells are virtually guaranteed damage, but the damage potential isn't very high unless you take extra measures (like Edge, Foci, Spirit aid) -- and the Drain is very low.

Further, direct spells can be cast through optical systems with no line of effect -- that is, you can sit relatively safely in your armored van looking out your armored window and cast all day. You can sit in your office and look through your fiber-optic magesight system and cast spells at a guy in the basement. Indirect spells now specifically require line of effect -- they travel from the caster's body through space to the target -- so there's no casting around corners, through windows, or through magesight. You have to stand your squishy self in the line of fire to use them.

[Shinobi Killfist]

SR 5 direct spells cost the same in drain except oddly the AoE spells cost more in drain. And as I pointed out in my campaigns which is why yes it is campaign dependent its niche is much smaller than the 4e indirect niche, though yes the disparity in drain is smaller. But that does not correct the issue, crap spell that has a tiny niche in where it is useful is weaker than a spell that is better in almost every way and costs the same drain. Assured really crappy damage is just a really tiny niche and the hide in a bunker mage is an even smaller niche, and while indirect spells sucked in 4e overall there niche of being good vs drones and other high OR items was a larger niche. Both are unbalanced, direct spells in 5e suck overall and indirect spells in 4e sucked overall. A tiny niche in where they are usefull does not balance them either costing the same drain or more drain.

[Epicedion]

SR 5 direct spells cost the same in drain except oddly the AoE spells cost more in drain. And as I pointed out in my campaigns which is why yes it is campaign dependent its niche is much smaller than the 4e indirect niche, though yes the disparity in drain is smaller. But that does not correct the issue, crap spell that has a tiny niche in where it is useful is weaker than a spell that is better in almost every way and costs the same drain. Assured really crappy damage is just a really tiny niche and the hide in a bunker mage is an even smaller niche, and while indirect spells sucked in 4e overall there niche of being good vs drones and other high OR items was a larger niche. Both are unbalanced, direct spells in 5e suck overall and indirect spells in 4e sucked overall. A tiny niche in where they are usefull does not balance them either costing the same drain or more drain.

You're wrong. Run the numbers at various targets.

Assuming a 12 dice caster against a guy with straight 3s and 10 armor, a F5 manabolt will do 3P and a F5 flamethrower will do 4-5P.

Assuming a target with straight 5s and 12 armor, the manabolt does 2-3P and the flamethrower does 3S with a significant chance of 0.

Straight 6s and 15 armor, 2P direct, 1S indirect and 50-50 odds on missing.

Now those are F5 because that's the last point you see minimum drain. In the last instance for the indirect to become superior to the direct, you need F7 for 4 drain. Then you're back up to 50-50 odds on 4P.

[Surukai]

Also, F3 Manaball has pretty decent area (Radius 3 meters is good to catch 2-3 guys if they aren't spread out), use 6 drams to bump limit to 6 and you have good dependable damage that still has minimum drain.

This is excellent dependable damage in smaller areas for minimum drain and cheap cost.

The opposite, F12 fireball with 6 Drams brings a huge blast of doom down to stun drain but still insane damage (and drain, so make sure your friends are nearby)


In general, low force + drams is a new way to alter and control drain to your favor.

[Shemhazai]

Don't forget that going on Full Defense adds Willlpower (which magicians usually max) to the defense roll and that doesn't add a limit because it's still purely an attribute test of Reaction + Intuition + Willpower. Magicians can max those three attributes and cast Improve Attribute on all three for a total of 30 dice. You can then cast Combat Sense to add those hits too, let's assume 6. Street Sams don't get this (unless you cast those spells on them). You can even add Gymnastics or a relevant combat skill to dodge, block or parry and add those dice too, but then you get your physical limit. To get around that, roll Edge for 6 more dice, the whole pool exploding. I frankly don't see the problem. A potential of 42 (43 if you're Lucky or have an Exceptional Attribute) (+1 for humans, -1 for trolls) exploding dice is quite generous.

[DMK]

Keep in mind that in 5E the only interrupt defense that applies to ranged attacks is Full Defense.

[Cain]

street samurai got boosted by having their niche given back. you can now make an effective street samurai that is not trivially replaced by another concept. initiative changed for everyone, and street samurai are still quite good at getting many initiative passes. and while they shoot less often, they are also shot at less often... meaning there is a lot less urgency to remove opponents quickly (and if they need to do that, they *can* use a burst to shoot multiple targets, as well). many essence costs were tweaked for SR5, and while some things got quite expensive, other things are still quite readily within reach and not crazy expensive. the wireless stuff is kinda BS, i agree; military-grade cyberware should not be built to function at full capacity only when it has a gigantic unnecessary hole in it's defences. apart from that, street sams came out of the edition change looking much better than they were in SR4.

I disagree. Leaving aside the wireless mess, street sams come out as second rate adepts in just about every conceivable area. Only adepts can have Level 3 initiative boosts, and nearly everything cyberware can do can be matched or exceeded by adept powers... sometimes for a seriously lower opportunity cost. Add in the wireless mess, and you'd be hard-pressed to show any area where the sam has a distinct advantage.

[FuelDrop]

I disagree. Leaving aside the wireless mess, street sams come out as second rate adepts in just about every conceivable area. Only adepts can have Level 3 initiative boosts, and nearly everything cyberware can do can be matched or exceeded by adept powers... sometimes for a seriously lower opportunity cost. Add in the wireless mess, and you'd be hard-pressed to show any area where the sam has a distinct advantage.

Street Sams have one advantage: background counts.

When was the last time you saw a GM actually remember to use one of those? (well, tonight actually... but that doesn't matter!)

I personally feel that 'ware is far cooler than adept powers, but I don't think that rule of cool qualifies as a mechanical equalizer per se.