[SR5] Direct combat spells and Errata Options

[Lobo0705]

Would you be.willing to post these samurai that are better than your adepts? I would be curious to see them.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Would you be.willing to post these samurai that are better than your adepts? I would be curious to see them.

I'll ask him to email him to me, I looked them over but I don't keep them.

[Cain]

Due to a gag order, I'm not allowed to post my builds. Let's just say that for what I was going for, adepts were better and easier.

[Surukai]

It costs a little over 100k to get an arm with 9 agility and 11 strength (Orc), add cyberspurs and you have 14P AP-3 melee with amazing dice pool, excellent recoil comp (one handed) and lots of money left to be a decker or rigger on the side or go all out sam on other areas. Get +physlimit pos adv. instead of natural strength and you get lots of statpoints left to be badass sam.

The price reduction on deltaware makes upgrading a sam much easier now than before. In SR4 you started with all the cyber you would ever encounter and upgrading required insane amount of money due to the x10 cost of all upgrades. This is much better now with cheaper deltaware.

Also, note that Attribute Boost (0.25 pp) adept power that looks ludicrous at start has a big nerf to it now. It ONLY affects dice pools. Attribute Boost Strength gives dice for climbing and swimming but not +damage in melee, boost reaction gives more defender dice but not higher initiative, boost agility gives dice for attacks but not run speed.... One could probably read it as "doesn't affect limits but everything else" but I choose to read it purely as "only dice added" since 0.25 pp for +2-3 to any stat would be overpowered.
To get pure basic attribute boosts the Adept has to get the real version for 1 pp per level. Muscle replacement and the like is meant to be easier for Sams.

[Falconer]

Cain... then don't post. Otherwise you merely bait others when they ask you to put up. At the very least be able to clearly make your point with a limited example then.


Lobo:
Reagants... at which point... lets see at $20 per dram. Lets say you use 5 units... at this point I could be tossing a grenade for the same budget with far superior results. See the 'fling' spell... no need for agility + thrown weapons! Or fun with levitation... or magic fingers... That of course touches into the one skill to rule them all problem that magic encompasses provided you have the right spell.


I understand that the indirects have a much bigger chance of simply fizzing by being dodged. I had it happen a few times in missions... but overall I found a force 6 lightning bolt tended to fry things very nicely. Force 6 on the manabolt was a waste in comparison. (I mainly got the manabolt for astral targets... since the character lacked astral combat skills. Though astral combat is a far stonger option in 5e than the spells I'd have to say as well.)

The problem is the added force on the indirect always gives a bonus. More base damage, more AP. The secondary effect as well can be enhanced as well (fire has a higher chance of starting that burning sensation). On a direct spell force only does one thing... it caps successes. And then you need to roll well. So you need a confluence of events... casting at high force... rolling well on the actual casting test to make use of the force. Then not flooring yourself with the drain which is going to happen whether or not you roll well on the casting test.

By the time you get through all that... you're lucky to get 2 or 3 points of damage out of the whole affair.


And that's not even touching into other bits such as... do indirects still qualify for called shots on placement for damage like they do in 4th.

Direct spells are still considered attacks... so as best I can tell. Take cover action still gives a dice pool bonus to resisting the attack spell.

[Cain]

The price reduction on deltaware makes upgrading a sam much easier now than before. In SR4 you started with all the cyber you would ever encounter and upgrading required insane amount of money due to the x10 cost of all upgrades. This is much better now with cheaper deltaware.

And at the listed payout rate, how long will it take for someone to afford Delta, even at the reduced cost?

Also, note that Attribute Boost (0.25 pp) adept power that looks ludicrous at start has a big nerf to it now. It ONLY affects dice pools. Attribute Boost Strength gives dice for climbing and swimming but not +damage in melee, boost reaction gives more defender dice but not higher initiative, boost agility gives dice for attacks but not run speed.... One could probably read it as "doesn't affect limits but everything else" but I choose to read it purely as "only dice added" since 0.25 pp for +2-3 to any stat would be overpowered.
To get pure basic attribute boosts the Adept has to get the real version for 1 pp per level. Muscle replacement and the like is meant to be easier for Sams.

Where does it say that? I haven't seen any official errata, and it's not in my copy of the rules.

[Lobo0705]

Lobo:
Reagants... at which point... lets see at $20 per dram. Lets say you use 5 units... at this point I could be tossing a grenade for the same budget with far superior results. See the 'fling' spell... no need for agility + thrown weapons! Or fun with levitation... or magic fingers... That of course touches into the one skill to rule them all problem that magic encompasses provided you have the right spell.

Two things - if you are saying you are only rolling 3 or 4 hits, you have no real need to use reagents, since you can cast it at force 5 and only have to resist 2DV drain. Also, I think this says more about the ridiculous grenade rules than anything else (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The problem is the added force on the indirect always gives a bonus. More base damage, more AP. The secondary effect as well can be enhanced as well (fire has a higher chance of starting that burning sensation). On a direct spell force only does one thing... it caps successes. And then you need to roll well. So you need a confluence of events... casting at high force... rolling well on the actual casting test to make use of the force. Then not flooring yourself with the drain which is going to happen whether or not you roll well on the casting test.

By the time you get through all that... you're lucky to get 2 or 3 points of damage out of the whole affair.

Again, not sure why casting at a high force matters with the size dice pool you are using. If you are only rolling 3-4 (maybe even 5) hits, there is no need to cast Manabolt higher than 5 - and with that, how you "floor" yourself with drain when you are only resisting 2DV, I'm not sure.

I do agree that with only 10 dice, 2-3 points of damage is about what you would average against most targets. It will totally depend on the opposition you are facing. What is the Int, Reaction, Body, and Armor of your opponents? If they are average, you are absolutely right that indirect spells are the way to go. As they start to creep up and up, the Manabolt starts looking more attractive, although you aren't (without Edge) going to get lots and lots of damage with one spell.

And that's not even touching into other bits such as... do indirects still qualify for called shots on placement for damage like they do in 4th.

No, because under the "Call a Shot" Free action, it says it can only be combined with "Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon, or Melee Attack Action"

Direct spells are still considered attacks... so as best I can tell. Take cover action still gives a dice pool bonus to resisting the attack spell.

Take Cover gives a dice pool bonus against direct spells only if you have Good Cover. Take Cover gives a dice pool bonus against indirect spells whether you have Good or Partial Cover.

[Falconer]

Lobo you're awful close minded on your readings. The reason I mentioned those is the rules there are grey and *CAN* be read either way.

People made the exact same arguments in SR4a... the wording was nearly identical down to the must be followed by bits. Yet the FAQ clarified that the bits in the wording for the specific rules for indirect combat spells that they worked exactly like a gunshot including called shots. SR5 changes the wording but leaves intact that the spell is just like a gun firing a bullet made of fire or acid or whatnot....


Your comments on take cover don't contradict my point. Only add more to it based on the same bits I had already read. Smart opposition won't resist the direct spell with mere 3 willpower... but with 3 willpower + 4 cover if they're smart! Taking another point or two of damage off the spell.


Your comments on attribute boost are again off the mark. It only explicitly states certain derived secondary attributes aren't recalculated. Your additional assertions are a possible reading but not a definitive one. My own take is that much like someone trying to play a 'hulk' if they go into a rage and pop their strength up using attribute boost, I don't believe it's the intent of the authors that the char not get boosted melee damage as well. That one is going to have to wait for the FAQ to clarify.

[Lobo0705]

Falconer,

I'm not sure how:

"A character may call a shot (aim for a vulnerable portion
of a target) with this Free Action; see Called Shots,
p. 178. This action must be combined with a Fire Weapon,
Throw Weapon, or Melee Attack Action."

is "grey" and can be read somehow that it includes Spellcasting.

Perhaps someday there MAY be a FAQ that changes that to include Spellcasting, but until then it is quite black and white. Here is what a Called Shot is, and this is what it "MUST" be combined with.

As far as attribute boost is concerned, I will ask that you leave off telling me how close minded I am about it and instead direct you to be a little more careful on who you you are quoting. If you look I haven't said ANYTHING about attribute boost.

[Falconer]

Mea culpa on the attribute boost bit... the RAW/RAI bit is a bit ambiguous I think there. Writing is the weak suit of most of the current crop of SR writers.



As for the other, read SR4a rulebook. The problem is you're only looking at one section of the rulebook. In the section pertaining to indirect spells it adds more. "Indirect attacks are treated like ranged combat attacks..." Now read the SR4a FAQ. Since indirect spells are treated as ranged combat attacks... all options open to ranged combat attacks were clarified in the FAQ to be open to them, including called shot. DESPITE the called shot section in SR4a having near identical wording as for which actions could follow. The text for indirect spells made it ambiguous as to whether firing one of those was equivalent to a 'fire gun' action.


SR5 changed the wording to be more flavorful but seems to have kept the meaning intact.... so once again. The question is "To what extent are indirect spells treated as normal ranged attacks?".

Given that it's already been ruled officially once that this extends even to called shots... I don't see why they wouldn't do so again. Especially because it makes sense... why couldn't a single target indirect spell like 'flamethrower' be aimed at the pursuing armored cars tires instead of the heavily armored car as a whole? The spell is fired "(In this case with bullets made of acid, or fire, or something equally unpleasant to be hit by)." If one should be able to shoot out the tires... why not the other.

[Surukai]

Attribute boost is very vague, but

Each hit on this test boosts
your attribute rating by 1, up to your augmented Attri-
bute maximum. This only affects your dice pools; your
Physical limit and Initiative ratings don’t change with
Attribute Boost.

Emphasis mine, the reason I read that more explicitly is because it is one of those powers that give insane boost for lvl 1, but are pointless to have in levels. Roll 7 dice and get boost (max 4 mind you), or spend 4 times as much to roll 10 dice ... not worth it.

The boost per point is already amazing, I have no reason to let it affect anything other than dice pools when it gives that option. The regular attribute increase cost a full Power point for +1 while you roll 1 or MORE hits 94,1% of the time.

Additionally, initiative rating is a direct derived stat from Reaction just like melee damage is directly derived from strength and run speed from agility. I think it is somewhat clear and given the extremely low price (0.25pp) it sounds reasonable.


And with called shots, I think someone of the freelancers have tried to be clever and use "keywords" saying that if the attack uses the action "Fire weapon" it can use this. And, by this Cast a Spell is a separate action and thus not covered by Called Shot in the Called Shot list. However, if they could write it better with Indirect combat spells so that shooting a ray of fire "counts as 'Fire a Weapon'" then it would be clearer.
We already know Indirects doesn't count completely as ranged attacks since they have no range whatsoever. There is no penalty at all to shoot people with lightning from a hot air balloon several kilometers away (given that you have a spotter mark the target for you, I imagine spotting the target in the first place is a little tricky from that distance)

I'd personally go with "indirects are ranged attacks for ALL intents and purposes, all modifiers apply" (fire from cover, fire into cover, fire blindly, fog, glare, smoke, moving vehicles, running targets, running caster, called shots, ...)

[kzt]

Writing is the weak suit of most of the current crop of SR writers.

So, what are they good at?

[RHat]

So, what are they good at?

Did you really need to give him a setup like that?

[kzt]

Did you really need to give him a setup like that?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[binarywraith]

So, what are they good at?

Getting paid, I hope, but knowing Catalyst...

[Machiavelli]

I think some of them get paid in time (or at all), but nevertheless the new crew is doing (basically) a great job. Immense output, good layout...no complains. But rule-wise....they follow the footsteps of the prevoius publishers. Nothing has changed. They bugfix some older problems and open up the box of pandora on the other side, causing more trouble than they fixed. After 4 versions you get used to that...to some degree. But SR5 is heavy to take...i think i need some regeneration time. Maybe i am getting older and don´t recover as quick as in the past?

[Shemhazai]

There is no penalty at all to shoot people with lightning from a hot air balloon several kilometers away (given that you have a spotter mark the target for you, I imagine spotting the target in the first place is a little tricky from that distance)

I'd personally go with "indirects are ranged attacks for ALL intents and purposes, all modifiers apply" (fire from cover, fire into cover, fire blindly, fog, glare, smoke, moving vehicles, running targets, running caster, called shots, ...)

You can't use most of the positive modifiers because they apply only to firearms. Your balloon caster is easy to deal with. The air is a bit hazy and thus gives a negative dice pool modifier to all casting.

@FuelDrop,

Not what I was referencing, and either way, I haven't read the new 52 Lobo, so I can't really compare the two (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Then which do you prefer: the corrupt, sinister Sheriff Lobo from B.J. and the Bear or the reformed good ol' boy from his spinoff series The Misadventures of Sheriff Lobo?

[Cain]

I think some of them get paid in time (or at all), but nevertheless the new crew is doing (basically) a great job. Immense output, good layout...no complains. But rule-wise....they follow the footsteps of the prevoius publishers. Nothing has changed. They bugfix some older problems and open up the box of pandora on the other side, causing more trouble than they fixed. After 4 versions you get used to that...to some degree. But SR5 is heavy to take...i think i need some regeneration time. Maybe i am getting older and don´t recover as quick as in the past?

Writing wise, I'd say they're pretty good at best. Since I get to see the raw output, I know how much work it takes to get things to the shiny final product you receive. Their output is indeed commendable, although the layout quite frankly stinks, and the amount of editorial oversight just isn't right for the task at hand. If you think there's a lot of typos in the books you get, think of how many were in the original documents submitted to the proofreaders and editors.

With a good editor, to direct and inspire the writing crew, we could have fantastic products rolling out.

[binarywraith]

I think some of them get paid in time (or at all), but nevertheless the new crew is doing (basically) a great job. Immense output, good layout...no complains. But rule-wise....they follow the footsteps of the prevoius publishers. Nothing has changed. They bugfix some older problems and open up the box of pandora on the other side, causing more trouble than they fixed. After 4 versions you get used to that...to some degree. But SR5 is heavy to take...i think i need some regeneration time. Maybe i am getting older and don´t recover as quick as in the past?

Man, how deeply have you dug into SR5? There are a -lot- of writing problems in here that are caused by awkward wording and obvious points where the people writing two sections (or two paragraphs even) didn't talk to each other.

Cain's got the right of it, this thing cries out for a competent editor.

[Machiavelli]

That was basically what i was trying to say, but maybe i didn´t point it out clearly enough? The problem you mention is not different than it was in the previous editions. If the wording would have been better and the rules were more clearly, we wouldn´t come to Dumpshock since several years, wouldn´t we? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Of course an editor would be great, but typos aren´t my biggest problems, as you might see at the original problem of the topic. ^^

[Cain]

An editor does more than fix typos. A good editor inspires the writers, pushes them to put out better writing. Accessible rules and clean layout are also the provinces of an editor. A good editor also would facilitate communication between writers on a project like this, so there's fewer contradictions and less redundancy.

The problem is we don't have a dedicated editor, we have a PR flack. And that problem is unique to Shadowrun's tenure at CGL.

[Machiavelli]

Ok, so we all agree that a good editor would be a valuable addition to our game. But this doesn´t prevent us from guys that really want to tell us, that causing 3P damage while risking 3S damage is still good and we shouldn´t complain. ^^ Means: Our main-problem still exists and it will go on like this. But is this REALLY bad? I don´t know, because it brings us all together and what on earth causes better intersocial bonds than flaming, trolling, whining and bitching? ^^

[Sendaz]

We're Not Going to Protest! - PCU (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[RHat]

Ok, so we all agree that a good editor would be a valuable addition to our game. But this doesn´t prevent us from guys that really want to tell us, that causing 3P damage while risking 3S damage is still good and we shouldn´t complain. ^^ Means: Our main-problem still exists and it will go on like this. But is this REALLY bad? I don´t know, because it brings us all together and what on earth causes better intersocial bonds than flaming, trolling, whining and bitching? ^^

Not having to deal with a defense roll nor armour is a serious advantage in SR5's high defense environment. You can at least agree to that much, yes?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not having to deal with a defense roll nor armour is a serious advantage in SR5's high defense environment. You can at least agree to that much, yes?

So, a Street Sam is allowed to drop an opponent consistently and easily, but a Magician cannot?

You make it sound like it is super powered craziness, though, and it isn't. My experiences in SR4A are very different than many others (no Uber Spirits, and no need for Magic 6 Spellcasters at character creation), and I really do not think that magic is overpowered (even with the Force + Net Hits of Directs, though I think the drain could be adjusted for both Directs and Indirects a bit). My biggest comlaint in SR4A is that Overcasting is just too convenient and easy (which is honestly where I hear most of the complaints of overpowered effect coming from). Too many casters default to Overcasting as a standard Practice. The argument goes that if you are not overcasting you are intentionally gimping yourself. And I find that a highly offensive position. I don't think that Overcasting should go away, by any means, but there should be more of a cost associated with it (Drain Adjustments all the way around would likely fix that issue).

I really do not like the solution that SR5 uses for overcasting, either. I can cast at Force 10 and only suffer Physical drain if my Hits go over my Magic Rating. I think that is not a good solution, since I can restrict my hits using reagents. I do like the Drain Mechanics (F +/- Modifier), though I think that they could have balanced Directs vs. Indirects better than they did.