[SR5] Direct combat spells and Errata Options

[cryptoknight]

Ok, than is THIS the new problem and we can agree that mages are over-nerfed and everything was fine before except that the drain for direct spells was too low (which i absolutely agree to)?

As a Shadowrun Missions GM, saying goodbye to Force 12 Stunballs is a good thing. Except in a rare edge case, a high initiative mage throwing a F12 Stunball turned combat off.

Sometimes I welcomed that... it meant that we could get done in less than the 4 hour time slot... but it also got boring.

Then the mages initiated... running Y4 mods about a month ago I got to see F16 stunballs.

Direct Spells suck. My thought on fixing it was to let mundanes learn counterspelling so they'd have an equivalent to dodge.

[Machiavelli]

I think this solution is viable, but it wouldn´t fit the setting. I would rather accept the optional drain-rule from SR4 and then F12+ Stunballs are also history. Except in very rare cases when the shit hits the fan THAT HARD, that the mage rather risks being knocked out or flattened physically by drain than being shot.

[cryptoknight]

I think this solution is viable, but it wouldn´t fit the setting. I would rather accept the optional drain-rule from SR4 and then F12+ Stunballs are also history. Except in very rare cases when the shit hits the fan THAT HARD, that the mage rather risks being knocked out or flattened physically by drain than being shot.

Letting mundanes learn how to focus their minds/bodies to resist the magic affecting them doesn't see too setting messed up.

I didn't mean for them to shield each other, just use counterspelling as a means of "magical dodge/armor" so they could be on a fair footing vs direct spells just like mages were.

Even an F6 stunball effectively turns combat off. F6 + 5 hits vs 3 willpower = unconscious NPC almost every time. Once the initiated mage hits magic 8, F8 + 5 hits pretty much still ends combat.

[Machiavelli]

Right, but don´t forget that the game is intended to be a team-game. Having a mage in your group is an advantage. Most of my time as a mage, i solely have the part to provide counterspelling. Being hit by a spell without counterspelling is like being hit by a pistol without wearing armor. In both cases you go down. The mage have to be able to one-shot his target, because he can only shoot in SS-mode and if he doesn´t succeed, HE is most probably the one that goes down in the next action phase. I still don´t see the problem. BEFORE the mage can one-shot you, you

1) need to stand right in front of him (which is stupid, no matter what class we talk about)
2) he needs to act before you do (which also is not standard)
3) you need to be alone (or if you act in a group) your all have to stand within the same range (both stupid actions).

For me it is rock/paper/scissors. A mage can do nearly nothing against a rigger, but i haven´t heard a rigger or a mage complain about this fact. Your mage one-shots the enemies? Send a drone.

[Draco18s]

I would rather accept the optional drain-rule from SR4 and then F12+ Stunballs are also history.

Actually, it doesn't. The optional rule would leave F12 stunballs as just as effective as they are now:

Mage rolls, gets net hits, the spell effects the targets. He chooses to use 0 net hits to increase the damage. Targets resist 12 damage (av. 3 dice). The NPC would need to roll all-hits to stay conscious.

Optional rule has had no impact.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've had it come up twice in games I've played, ever.

Once as Mana Static (cast at the PCs) and once as Astral Hazing (on a PC; who we actually hurled at a low-force spirit on one occasion).

Then I would say that your GM just did not use it as it should be. BGC and Wards should be a common occurrance. And before you (or others) mention that Mages are rare, they are more common than a Doctor is, and I see Hospitals, Clinics and Dr. Offices everywhere. AND you can get a consultant right out of the phone book... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Machiavelli]

QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Oct 13 2013, 09:34 AM) *
Secondly i need to know when the SR5-errata will follow as a download.
1) And you think Dumpshock would know that?

QUOTE
Will it be released when the german SR5-core is published?
2) The German SR books have no effect on the US books, they are published by two different companies.


QUOTE
Will there be a notification from Battlecorps or Drivethrough for all buyers of the PDF-version to update or download the changes?1) And you think Dumpshock would know that?
3) Usually it works that way. You get an e-mail when the PDF is updated, and have 7 days for 7 new downloads. If you miss that window, you write to Battlecarps or Drivethru, and they can open up your downloads again.

1) of course i think that. If not here, where else should i get this data? I could start a relationship with one of the publishing-crew but this would take too much work and time. ^^

2) I know, but the german books always include the erratas before they get published. So one goes with the other.

3) thank you.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually, it doesn't. The optional rule would leave F12 stunballs as just as effective as they are now:

Mage rolls, gets net hits, the spell effects the targets. He chooses to use 0 net hits to increase the damage. Targets resist 12 damage (av. 3 dice). The NPC would need to roll all-hits to stay conscious.

Optional rule has had no impact.

Yes, the optional rule in SR4A was garbage... Better to go to a F +/- Modifiers Drain mechanic.

[Machiavelli]

Actually, it doesn't. The optional rule would leave F12 stunballs as just as effective as they are now:

Mage rolls, gets net hits, the spell effects the targets. He chooses to use 0 net hits to increase the damage. Targets resist 12 damage (av. 3 dice). The NPC would need to roll all-hits to stay conscious.

Optional rule has had no impact.

You are right, i think i had the rule wrong in my mind. Ok, so we need more drain. MORE DRAIN, MORE DRAIN, FREE TIBET, MORE DRAIN!!!

[Draco18s]

Then I would say that your GM just did not use it as it should be. BGC and Wards should be a common occurrance. And before you (or others) mention that Mages are rare, they are more common than a Doctor is, and I see Hospitals, Clinics and Dr. Offices everywhere. AND you can get a consultant right out of the phone book... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Which is why I like the SR5 rules for BC. It's very easy to say "oh you get 3 less dice to your tests from BC" than it is to say "oh by the way, here's a list of status effects for you to keep track of."

[cryptoknight]

You are right, i think i had the rule wrong in my mind. Ok, so we need more drain. MORE DRAIN, MORE DRAIN, FREE TIBET, MORE DRAIN!!!

Or Magic Armor that Mundanes can buy in a store. After all... F12 Stunballs are just big, weird, magic grenades.

It's a Missions problem, generally there's only 1-2 combats in the mod, and the player takes his character home to heal before the next one.

F12/F16 Stunballs with their massive AOE means, that NPCs who aren't really that close (16m = about 50 feet radius ) only within an area of 800 Sq meters or 8654 square feet are all affected if the mage can see them. Giving the defenders a couple dice as a vision modifier defense bonus doesn't even give them a chance.

The mage might take a couple points of physical drain, but there's the post mission recovery period to put him back together to do it all over again.

And high initiative mages seem to be the norm in Missions... Sustaining Focused or Quickened Improved Attribute spells + Increased Reflexes and in SR4a I tend to see mages go on initiative 25 or so.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Which is why I like the SR5 rules for BC. It's very easy to say "oh you get 3 less dice to your tests from BC" than it is to say "oh by the way, here's a list of status effects for you to keep track of."

How hard is it to say "subtract the BGC from your Magic Rating/Foci Ratings/Active Spell ratings; Add the BGC to your Drain?"
Simple, and done in a sentence. No more difficult, really

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Or Magic Armor that Mundanes can buy in a store. After all... F12 Stunballs are just big, weird, magic grenades.

It's a Missions problem, generally there's only 1-2 combats in the mod, and the player takes his character home to heal before the next one.

F12/F16 Stunballs with their massive AOE means, that NPCs who aren't really that close (16m = about 50 feet radius ) only within an area of 800 Sq meters or 8654 square feet are all affected if the mage can see them. Giving the defenders a couple dice as a vision modifier defense bonus doesn't even give them a chance.

Never underestimate the value of Cover, since the defender gets that modifier to his defense as well. It is not all that hard to get decent resistance if you actually pay attention to your environment rather than trading blows across open ground. If that is your preferred fighting style, a mage isn't even a requirement to remove you from the fight.

[Epicedion]

How hard is it to say "subtract the BGC from your Magic Rating/Foci Ratings/Active Spell ratings; Add the BGC to your Drain?"
Simple, and done in a sentence. No more difficult, really

You can say "rewrite your character sheet" with a sentence. It's still lengthy and annoying.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You can say "rewrite your character sheet" with a sentence. It's still lengthy and annoying.

I disagree that it is annoying... Others may differ in their opinion. I far prefer SR4A's BGC than the proposed SR5's version. I feel that the SR5 version is too easlily sidestepped.
No worries, though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DrZaius]

I don't know about y'all, but I'd say only 20% of my games end up being actual combat.

It's fun and all to say the Samurai or the Adept is better because they can throw 18 dice towards their attacks, or what have you, but in my experience the mage being able to use "Influence" on the guard to let them by or "Mind Probe" on their kidnapping victim to determine who he works for seems to make Mages plenty powerful. If you acknowledge that a limited portion of the game is combat, then it's ok that the Street Sam is significantly better at it than the mage. The mage has always been a swiss army knife, not a bludgeon. Our sammy spent a not insignificant amount of time on our last run twiddling his thumbs because he wasn't as useful at information gathering, scouting, networking (gotta love that Charisma plays into drain AND contacts), etc. etc. etc. If you look at the system as a whole, from start to finish each archetype has their place in a group. It's just a matter of the mage not being lords of all creation anymore; and frankly I'm fine with that.

-DrZ

[Jaid]

actually, magicians can still be beasts in combat.

it *does* take a bit more preparation to do it, plus an extra skill (and it does cost you some nuyen).

how does it work, you ask?

well, you start by adding abilities that increase your natural healing rate. which just adds to the power of mystic adepts, mind you. but regardless, that's just the first thing.

having done that, you now beef up your alchemy skill. use it to prepare an indirect combat spell (force of double your magic). use reagents to set the maximum hits to your magic. give it a command trigger. you may or may not be able to pull off multiples of this. the potency will hopefully come out at 6, and presto; you now have a single use of a high force indirect spell which you've probably already slept off the drain for by the time you need to use it, and that spell likely has a pool ranging from 15-18 dice at chargen (in extreme cases, it could be 21 dice). with a limit of 10-14, depending on starting magic attribute.

and there you go, your magician can now wreck people completely and utterly in combat (note: area versions will need to be thrown or placed first, because of the rules for preparations... on the plus side, the rules for preparations also reduce the area, which when you're talking about a 12 meter radius that would likely have included you, is generally actually an advantage).

[Dolanar]

hell SR4 had that "Weapons Platform" that could swap into an AR, a Carbine, a Sniper Rifle, a Shotgun, an LMG, all of which used the Automatics skill.

[DWC]

hell SR4 had that "Weapons Platform" that could swap into an AR, a Carbine, a Sniper Rifle, a Shotgun, an LMG, all of which used the Automatics skill.

It didn't have an attachment that would let me use Automatics to fly, turn invisible, read the minds of strangers, detect everyone within 600 meters with hostile intent towards me, offset the effects of sleep deprivation, or see what was happening on the other side of the world, though.

[Draco18s]

It didn't have an attachment that would let me use Automatics to fly

Obviously you didn't buy the Machine Gun Jet Pack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Dolanar]

yes but DWC, count how much Karma a mage had to sink to get those spells? & in general I would say Karma is the rarest commodity a team of runners has. Besides..how often are you looking across the world? Not often in my games.

[Jaid]

ummm... the ability to fly for 5 karma is pretty much a way better deal than almost any other way of spending karma. if you offered the street samurai the ability to use "automatics" to fly for 5 karma, you would not hear complaints, you would hear celebration, because that would be the best 5 karma that street samurai ever spent.

[Dolanar]

or he could call his fixers & get a personal Flight unit to fly...& since he only needs cash he probably can buy one.

[DWC]

It's 5 karma per spell. Less than a session worth of karma, to gain a new wondrous power every session, all readily usable at full effectiveness with a skill you bought at a 6 at character creation. Karma is far from a rare commodity. Even on jobs where you don't get paid, or where you take a financial loss, you're still getting karma. The mage spends ten bucks on a new cutting tool for his CMM machine. The mundane has to go out and spend tens of thousands on an end mill, or a drill press, or a lathe.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

ummm... the ability to fly for 5 karma is pretty much a way better deal than almost any other way of spending karma. if you offered the street samurai the ability to use "automatics" to fly for 5 karma, you would not hear complaints, you would hear celebration, because that would be the best 5 karma that street samurai ever spent.

Your argument does not hold water. I can spend less nuyen, than a single point of Karma would convert to in Chargen, getting a Grapple gun than it takes to learn to Fly, and with no drain. And viola. I can levitate up and down buildings with the greatest of ease. If my street Sam actually needs to fly, it is still less Nuyen (Just over 3 Karma) to get me a machine that will do it for me, and far less problematicaly.