[SR5] Direct combat spells and Errata Options

[mister__joshua]

He is equating it with the Hacking Issues of previous editions.

Ah right. I've never heard that referred to as the Pizza Problem either. Guess I'm just not 'down wit da kidz'

[DrZaius]

He is equating it with the Hacking Issues of previous editions.

Specifically, the idea that "the rest of the team has enough time that they can go get a pizza" while the GM and Hacker resolve the matrix tests.

[Draco18s]

I don't know what this means

It's a scenario where one player is involved with the GM so everyone else goes and gets pizza.

[binarywraith]

So, unless I'm missing something, are the rules for BGC layed out at any point in SR5? I see references in some of the qualities, but other than that nothing- it looks like a rule that is implied from previous versions, but if you don't have the previous experience as a new player coming in you'd have no way of knowing what they're talking about. If anything called for a table it'd be this- there are certainly enough of them in the book.

-DrZ

The rules for what people are constantly touting as the thing that keeps mages from needing a nerf aren't in the core book, no. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

There are suggested ones in the Missions errata, but as Bull notes, that is not official SR5 errata.

[Machiavelli]

Guys, this is not the tone we would like to see in the discussions here. And that goes for both of you.

It is very possible to offer your opinion without resorting to personal attacks.

So, calm down, take a step back, and when you are able to write in a more friendly manner again, you can continue here.

Bye
Thanee

You are right, i apologize.

[Jaid]

a) Page 278 Drain: Drain damage, regardless of whether it is Stun or Physical damage, cannot be healed by any means other than the natural properties of the body—that means no magical healing and no medkits. Page 311 Rapid Healing [adept power]: You recover from damage more quickly, magically healing yourself over periods of time.

b) How on earth can you get 6 net hits against a dice pool that's double your Magic? Do you plan on having your Alchemy dice pool 18 dice greater than that somehow? If you use reagents to limit your hits, your potency will be that limit minus hits of double your Magic. At Magic 6 that's 6 - 4 (expected hits of 12 dice) = 2. At Magic 7 that's 7 - 4.67 (expected hits of 14 dice) = 2.33. This assumes the Alchemy dice pools of 18 and 21, respectively, to expect 6 or 7 hits to meet the limit. Failure means potency of 1 or failing outright. You still roll that terrible drain though.

c) Heal the stun drain with high body. The assumption I see often is that magicians will max Willpower and Logic/Charisma depending on tradition. Now they need to max Body for this trick, Agility if they want to toss their preparations like grenades (or simply learn a firearms skill to be effective in combat as they are sometimes advised on these forums), and Initiative and Reaction if they want to dodge (Geek the mage first, right?) or engage in astral combat. All while having lower priority slots, because they max Magic too.

What I plan to try is getting Magic 8 and using preparations of slightly less than double my Magic. I think I could pull this off as an elf shaman with maxed Body, Willpower and Charisma, all buffed to +4. Would those buffs count as "magical healing"? I would use a power focus and possibly a centering focus (along with the centering initiate ability).

I think the Quick Healer quality would work for this. Do you think the Magic 8 is overkill? (I've noticed several things in 5e that higher Magic helps.) Would the Karma be better spent on another initiation (centering die) or something else?

hmmm... missed that. should still work fine though. potency of 2 means area effect of 2. if it's force 12, you'll still have a dice pool of 14 to increase damage, but now you have some very localized grenades. only drawback is the duration. and of course, you don't have to go all the way to force 12... you can "settle" for only 10P base damage on your mini-grenades. but really, small area instagib attacks are probably even better than large area ones, most of the time...

also, willpower factors in to healing stun damage, and a power focus should help generate the hits you need when making the opposed test.

[Shemhazai]

I'm thinking that 3-4 is a good spot for potency. Having 6-8 hours (7-9 hours depending on rule interpretation) for full potency and a 3-4 meter radius aren't bad. A strategy might be to prepare low force, high potency preparations first, capped off by a higher force, medium potency preparation (the ball lightning, for example). Then rest, create one more with very high force, minimal potency (a more intense, but more localized ball lightning). Rest off that drain (hopefully) and then it's showtime.

As for Willpower, it's good for not getting the drain in the first place. Body is good for healing it. It still makes (shamanic) elves preferable to trolls in my opinion.

[Jaid]

As for Willpower, it's good for not getting the drain in the first place. Body is good for healing it. It still makes (shamanic) elves preferable to trolls in my opinion.

in SR5, so long as the drain is stun damage, willpower is *also* good for recovering from it. you also get to use your body in the same test, but willpower *is* included.

[Shemhazai]

in SR5, so long as the drain is stun damage, willpower is *also* good for recovering from it. you also get to use your body in the same test, but willpower *is* included.

Thanks for setting me straight on that. Trolls, orks, and dwarves get +4, +3, +3 extra dice per hour to heal stun drain. Shaman elves, all dwarves, shaman orks, and shaman trolls get +2, +1, -1, and -2 dice per casting to avoid it.

[cryptoknight]

Your argument does not hold water. I can spend less nuyen, than a single point of Karma would convert to in Chargen, getting a Grapple gun than it takes to learn to Fly, and with no drain. And viola. I can levitate up and down buildings with the greatest of ease. If my street Sam actually needs to fly, it is still less Nuyen (Just over 3 Karma) to get me a machine that will do it for me, and far less problematicaly.

But unless I'm wrong, the mage can buy that solution too?

[cryptoknight]

Right, but don´t forget that the game is intended to be a team-game. Having a mage in your group is an advantage. Most of my time as a mage, i solely have the part to provide counterspelling. Being hit by a spell without counterspelling is like being hit by a pistol without wearing armor. In both cases you go down. The mage have to be able to one-shot his target, because he can only shoot in SS-mode and if he doesn´t succeed, HE is most probably the one that goes down in the next action phase. I still don´t see the problem. BEFORE the mage can one-shot you, you

1) need to stand right in front of him (which is stupid, no matter what class we talk about)
2) he needs to act before you do (which also is not standard)
3) you need to be alone (or if you act in a group) your all have to stand within the same range (both stupid actions).

For me it is rock/paper/scissors. A mage can do nearly nothing against a rigger, but i haven´t heard a rigger or a mage complain about this fact. Your mage one-shots the enemies? Send a drone.

Ok... so 3 Willpower and good cover = 7 dice... ~2 hits. Magic 8 + Spellcasting 6(+2 combat spells) = 16 dice = ~5 hits... cast at force 8 = 11 stun damage. At force 16? 19 stun damage. Lights out for everybody.

And again the AOE of a F16 stunball is a circle with a diameter of 32 meters or roughly 100 feet across. If you tell me that the grunts need to each keep a 1/3 of a football field distance from each other as a defensive measure... no way.

[Trismegistus]

Why wouldn't the GM give you an Athletics test for attempting to "fly" with a grapple gun? And hey, let's not forget that grapple guns are fired using an Exotic Weapon skill, making it totally useless for anything else.

[Isath]

let's not forget that grapple guns are fired using an Exotic Weapon skill, making it totally useless for anything else.

Not to forget, that one cannot solve everything by carrying around yet another piece of gear.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But unless I'm wrong, the mage can buy that solution too?

Sure, but why would he when the spells are so much more versatile? Isn't that what we are talking about here?
See, Mages have MANY other things to spend Karma on other than their spell selection, foci bonding, magic rating or Initiation. And yet, there are a lot of individuals who seem to either forget (or ignore) that truth.

[Jaid]

Sure, but why would he when the spells are so much more versatile? Isn't that what we are talking about here?
See, Mages have MANY other things to spend Karma on other than their spell selection, foci bonding, magic rating or Initiation. And yet, there are a lot of individuals who seem to either forget (or ignore) that truth.

having more good options than everyone else is an advantage, not a disadvantage. having so many good options that it isn't possible to have them all at once out of chargen is not an argument that does anything to convince me magicians are in any way weak.

they have a ton of power in utility, more than any other character, and they still have a very respectable amount of power in combat. as i pointed out, levitate is generally a superior choice in the setting over a flying vehicle because it is very concealable and easily portable. it can be placed anywhere that you can see whenever you need it. it is a very powerful, versatile, flexible tool that lets you do some very impressive things, and it is in no way replaced by having access to a flying vehicle because it offers some extremely impressive options that a flying vehicle simply do not even come close to.

[Isath]

Mages advance mainly by Karma, so yeah, they can use a buttload of it. One should however, not confuse, not being close to ones potential, as not being powerful. Mages can accomplish quite a lot, right out of the door. Being able to go anywhere from there, may be hard for some, but still is a luxury.

So, mages have a justified craving for Karma (growing is great after all), but that still does not justify, that every single option (in this case direct combat spells [DCS]) needs to be on par or even more powerful, than mudane ones. If a combat mage really goes for it, his casting of DCS can become something, mudanes do not even dare to crap their pants about.

[Shemhazai]

Would it be better if the magician made other player characters fly? I mean float. Provided it's at a high force to resist dispelling, of course, to prevent the character from falling to their death.

[tjn]

having more good options than everyone else is an advantage, not a disadvantage. having so many good options that it isn't possible to have them all at once out of chargen is not an argument that does anything to convince me magicians are in any way weak.

Hold up, flag on the play: the argument was never "magicians are weak." I doubt you'll find much support for argument anywhere.

The position put forth by the MagicRun adherents is Magic is OP. Those that are arguing against that position are NOT saying magic is weak and you're committing a logical fallacy by excluding the middle and forcing a black/white binary choice of either magic is either OP or weak. Other than indirect aoe spells, I haven't found much in the way of OP, but that's intrinsic to indirect aoes (grenades included- which frankly are a much more efficient option) and not magic.

The argument put forth to prove Magic is OP, is that because Magic is capable of X, and Y, and Z it is therefore OP. And the counter is that yes magic has a lot of potential, but unless you're living in InfiniteKarma Land, that potential is never realized. As soon as the mage spends the karma on a new spell, the mage cannot then learn a different spell, bond a focus, initiate, improve attributes/skills/qualities/whatever without additional karma.

Every character has a pool of resources. If character 1 has 50 options to spend those resources, but they can only achieve a realized power level of 9000, they will still be weaker than a character that only has one option, but can achieve a power level of over 9000.

Just the fact that magic characters have more options, does not in itself, make them OP. You have to show that one of those options that is exclusively available to the mage character is demonstrably more powerful than any option a mundane could acquire, when both character types - and here's the important part - have an equal pool of resources (such as a starting character or with an additional X Karma and/or Y Nuyen) to draw from. And if proven, it's proven only under those conditions and not in general.

Anecdotally, I statted up three different characters using RAW chargen: a sammie, an adept, and a cyberadept, all human. I found they were all within a few dice of each other and the major distinction was that Adepts are much better at avoiding damage and sammies were much better at soaking it. (As an aside, I also worked up a couple trolls, and in general they aren't worth the high priority imo unless you're a melee specialist... and then they become kinda OP). Once I polish them, I might throw it up on dumpshock for comment, but my own findings were that most characters were within one or two dice of each other and that was within my own tolerance for game balance to stamp the whole thing with "good enough." Funnily enough, I found the full sammie tended towards having more dice in combat, on average, because his Resources was much easier split between offensive and defensive improvements than the Adept's power points, and while the cyberadept could keep up, there were some glaring weaknesses, like having crap for Edge.

levitate is generally a superior choice in the setting over a flying vehicle because it is very concealable and easily portable. it can be placed anywhere that you can see whenever you need it. it is a very powerful, versatile, flexible tool that lets you do some very impressive things, and it is in no way replaced by having access to a flying vehicle because it offers some extremely impressive options that a flying vehicle simply do not even come close to.

As also pointed out Levitate is SLOW. Yes it's concealable, yes it's portable, yes it's flexible, but levitate will never outrun anything. If time or speed is a factor at all, a flying vehicle will always be the better choice. Further comparing a vehicle is an improper comparison; use a drone. A properly kitted flying drone might be able to accomplish something similar to, while being faster than, a flying mage.

[Isath]

I was under the impression, that the topic, as presented by the OP is, that direct combat spells are, in his opinion, to weak. It sort of translates as, "magicians are to weak". This is the point, I just can not agree with.

[Glyph]

Mages can be overpowered in every other respect, and direct combat spells can still suck. The two are not contradictory.

The change to direct combat spells is jarring to anyone coming over from SR3 or SR4, because direct combat spells used to have an entirely different role - they were reusable, effective spells for taking down enemies. In SR5, they seem to be limited to slowly whittling down foes who can reliably dodge or soak indirect combat spells, a much more narrow niche.

[tjn]

My apologies. I was under the impression that he was refuted, and his reaction was more of a knee jerk response to a single change without reading how everything else changed in context.

Perhaps it was my own knee jerk reaction to the fallacy that "mages can do ANYTHING!!!" that gets thrown around constantly that caused my post. Sorry.

[tjn]

Double post. Sorry.

[RHat]

The change to direct combat spells is jarring to anyone coming over from SR3 or SR4, because direct combat spells used to have an entirely different role - they were reusable, effective spells for taking down enemies. In SR5, they seem to be limited to slowly whittling down foes who can reliably dodge or soak indirect combat spells, a much more narrow niche.

But still a broader niche than was previously assigned to indirect spells.

Really, I think the issue is that people are having difficulty adapting to the idea of indirects as the go-to option rather than directs.

[Lurker37]

The big problem with direct spells in previous editions was that the caster could inflict a large amount of damage for little to no drain. As a result, direct spells were the go-to spells, and indirect effects were under-utilised.

The possible solutions to these were:

Either 1) Increase drain

or 2) Reduce damage.

or 3) Make the elemental effects of indirect spells more potent and desirable, so that the lack of these in indirect spells is a more serious drawback.

SR5 has done all three at once.

So now indirect combat spells are the go-to spells, and the direct spells are barely worth casting. Even if the target is hard to hit, doing a similar amount of damage to yourself to hurt them is only a good call when you have the numerical advantage, any reinforcements incoming will be on your side, and you have no need to leave the area once the battle is over. In short, it is a boon to corpsec, but all-but-useless to a runner. Unfortunately, in this game, runners are the PCs.

And if mages needs to resort to guns to be effective in combat, I can pretty much guarantee my group is going to demand to go back to 3rd Ed.

[RHat]

And if mages needs to resort to guns to be effective in combat, I can pretty much guarantee my group is going to demand to go back to 3rd Ed.

I'm sorry, but given that indirect spells are still an effective option (and indirect area spells, like grenades, are too effective), I don't see how this is relevant. As for Direct Spells, keep in mind that the Drain/Damage comparison doesn't actually work like that. At F-3, Force 5 is basically your minimum Force that it makes sense to cast it at (as that entails the minimum 2 Drain). If you have Magic 6, Spellcasting 6, a Combat specialization, a Mentor Spirit bonus to Combat Spells, and a Force 3 Power Focus, that's 19 dice at chargen for at least 5 hits 81 percent of the time, and with a Drain pool of 11 you take no Drain 92.5 percent of the time. The target resists with Willpower alone, and cannot dodge - leading to at least 3 damage after soak most of the time (not bothering with a formula applying the limit right now). That's pretty reliable damage, and is pretty good if the target is otherwise very difficult for anyone to damage. It's a damn useful niche, even if it isn't as flashy as some others.

Also, the Drain on Directs hasn't really been increased - Drain scaling is different, yes, but at Force 6, the drain for Manabolt and such is identical.