5th Edition Thoughts Options

[CitM]

Okay seriously?

To be clear: I followed all the discussions about how crappy the new book ist, how the developers sucked and why everything takes so long to come out. I know all the little things like broken totems (raven), imbalanced classes (mystic adept) and strange new wireless-boni to push deckers into combat. I know that "the hot-fix-patch-update-errata", i could have written in under an hour, took WAY to long to come out. And i know that when developers say "Missions 05-01 will be released at the same time as the corebook" youll better read "we dont give a f*ck when it comes out". And to be honest i dont gave a damn.

Until today when i was randomly looking through that book and had to stop at page 107 (pdf). What the hell is this? It has to be a joke. I mean, why would someone WASTE almost a whole page for this f*ck?
Some months ago i have seen a post in this forum by a person responsible that said:
"Spirits? Are you joking? I barely got dragons in that book."

"The skill table works on a similar principle, though
Active Skill ratings costs are computed at new Rating x
2."

This is a 100% quote from page 105 (and imho the only useful info on that whole page). Now you tell me why that sh*t on p. 107 should have a right to exist? And why this is more important than backgroundcount, traditions, posession or an proper overview of the history 2010-2070?

What is it with you guys? Dont you get paid well? Regular people would have been fired a 100 times for that. I dont want to be the troll but something definitly has to change with the following releases or people (at least me) will stop spending money on this and get stuff from the internet.

[tasti man LH]

...excuse me?

Just what's such a Betrayal about skill costs?

[Chinane]

...excuse me?

Just what's such a Betrayal about skill costs?

I'd say the complaint is more about wasting a whole page on tables that provide no benefit to someone beyond second grade.

Especially the first table with cumulative attribute cost is borderline insane - have you EVER been in the situation where you needed to know the combined cost for raising an attribute by two points AFTER char generation? In addition to not being able to calculate that on the fly? And i'm being generous by using the word calculate here.

[mister__joshua]

While I did laugh at the useless tables, I think the OP may be a slight overreaction...

[Grinder]

That's what we call nerdrage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CitM]

That's what we call nerdrage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It may be, still i think some random dudes with lower secondary education would have done a better job. Apart from that at least there has to be someone doing kinda final acceptance on the product. And this guy should go to hell for blowing up my - and your - money.

[bannockburn]

Yes. Some dude should burn in hell because you have the feeling that wordcount was wasted. Very proportionate reaction indeed.

[FuelDrop]

Why wait until hell? we've already got fire here! (Thanks Prometheus!)

(Disclaimer: not serious. Burning people alive is wrong. And bad. And we shouldn't do it. Often.)

[Chinane]

Yes. Some dude should burn in hell because you have the feeling that wordcount was wasted. Very proportionate reaction indeed.

Do you seriously think the wordcount is the issue here?

Let me translate that page for you:
'You, dear reader, are dumb as bread. Please allow us to dedicate this whole page to demonstrate our opinion of your intelligence.'

And that's not even counting all the potentially useful stuff that's missing from the book.

[bannockburn]

No, I'm simply questioning the opening poster's reaction.

Spouting vitriol, implying that pirating the products in the future might be a better way, and wishing hell upon people (if you believe in this sort of stuff) damages a very valid general position.

There IS such a thing as bringing wares back to the dealer and getting your money back if you're not satisfied with the product's quality. And if the seller won't budge, sell the thing on to people who like it better.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

To be honest... I was so insulted by the time I got to Page 107, that it was just another data point along the way. And the insults don't stop there, either. I hold no hope for the continuation of SR5 under the current developmental leadership, and will only play it if there is no other choice.

[Chinane]

No, I'm simply questioning the opening poster's reaction.

So, what would you consider a valid response towards someone telling you you're a f*cking idiot AND taking your money?

[bannockburn]

I [...] will only play it if there is no other choice.

Good thing there always is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[binarywraith]

No, I'm simply questioning the opening poster's reaction.

Spouting vitriol, implying that pirating the products in the future might be a better way, and wishing hell upon people (if you believe in this sort of stuff) damages a very valid general position.

There IS such a thing as bringing wares back to the dealer and getting your money back if you're not satisfied with the product's quality. And if the seller won't budge, sell the thing on to people who like it better.

Honestly?

If they're going to keep publishing like this, pirating as a preview in the future might be a better way. Same way I'd never buy a sourcebook in hardcopy without paging through it first to make sure it isn't just 100 pages of sketches of someone's butt and reprinted GURPS rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[bannockburn]

So, what would you consider a valid response towards someone telling you you're a f*cking idiot AND taking your money?

Sure, imply all you want that the authors want to deliberately insult their customers.
Take a tinfoil hat, while you're at it.

SR is not a pyramid scheme, even if you choose to be personally insulted by phrases that are most likely directed at new players not familiar with the system. If you believe that the authors have it out for you, your dog and all their potential customers, you should probably listen to all the reviews that have been available earlier, plus the reactions of the people here on this very board and not buy it.
This way, they can't insult you and you don't give (important distinction here, btw) them your money.

If you do it anyways, it's no ones fault but your own, and it is still not an issue, because you can simply take it back to your FLGS, or Amazon or wherever you got it from.
Don't act so outraged. No one killed your puppy. You chose to buy this thing, despite a lot of people giving a lot of opinions in either direction.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Good thing there always is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Indeed, though My GM actually likes much of SR5 (and as he always runs Conventions with Missions, I expect him to continue with SR5 - he is a completist, after all). Hopefully he chooses SR4A (with maybe some backports) instead of SR5 for the Home games.

[bannockburn]

Honestly?

If they're going to keep publishing like this, pirating as a preview in the future might be a better way. Same way I'd never buy a sourcebook in hardcopy without paging through it first to make sure it isn't just 100 pages of sketches of someone's butt and reprinted GURPS rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I do the same. It's smart, actually. But how is pirating better? Why would I even want to pirate stuff I don't like?
Besides that, Dumpshock ToS (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Edit: Clarification: I thumb through books before buying them. Especially those expensive RPG products.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I do the same. It's smart, actually. But how is pirating better? Why would I even want to pirate stuff I don't like?
Besides that, Dumpshock ToS (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It isn't. Pirating is a Zero Sum Game for the end user and hurts businesses, not to mention being illegal, so no, not the best choice there. But there are better systems out there if you have issues with one that you are playing. Better even for things like Cyberpunk, if you are willing to put in the work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[mister__joshua]

To be honest... I was so insulted by the time I got to Page 107, that it was just another data point along the way. And the insults don't stop there, either. I hold no hope for the continuation of SR5 under the current developmental leadership, and will only play it if there is no other choice.

I know that life is all about opinions, but I'm curious as to what you, and all the other anti-5 peeps, find so insulting about the new edition?

My position: I haven't played sr5 yet. We're half way through a sr4 run and are playing it through before we switch. I bought and read the sr5 pdf, then bought the book too. In reading it, I found changes in the system almost universally positive and enjoyable. Some particular highlights for me were the change to initiative, the overall increase in weapon damage, mages taking a bit of hurt, deckers requiring actual intelligence to be good at their jobs, and numerous other things. Negative changes, well they've been relatively minor. Maybe more will crop up as we play, but certainly there hasn't been anything I've read that's caused me to be insulted, or even to regret moving edition. For the most part complaints I've seen have been about wireless bonuses and cyberware pricing, neither of which breaks a system beyond usability. The former is, at worst, ignored and the latter can be easily changed if you desire.

So fill me in, what makes this system worse than 4th edition*? So bad as to be insulting? I'm honestly curious.

*please only compare core books, as that's where we're currently at.

[Surukai]

I have played (GMed) a couple of meetings now and I find some issues that I feel annoyed by but they are minor.

The Wireless bonus thing have not come in play yet, the enemy hacker failed to destroy any cyber the only chance they have encountered so far. At start level where enemy dicepools <12 things don't go splat. It is for more difficult missions and then they'll be more careful I'm sure.

And, a bricked gun or spinal cord costs less to repair then the money you get from selling a used cyberdeck =D


What I do feel insulted by or annoyed by from actual play is, first and foremost

Issue A, the most serious one so far is the odd bridge between Chargen and karmagen.

This is simply horribly done and a balance flaw that I despise with all of my heart: "No, get 6 in pistols with your skill points and 1 in computer with karma. Don't ever get 1:s or low skills with skillpoints..
Pistols 5, Computer 1 then raise to Pistols 6 with karma costs 12 karma. Getting Pistols 6 at chargen and pick up Computer 1 after your first run costs you 2 karma.
Same with stats. You get waaaaaay more worth to get one 6, the rest 5:s and leave all other stats at 1 at start and then fix after 1-2 runs the critical ones to 2 for a mere of 10 karma each compared to 30 karma to raise 5 to 6.
What does this do? It premiers munchkinism. You don't only get a better character with maxed out stats from start, you even save tons of karma by doing so! Being highly specialized is already a good choice for any character, adding a huge penalty for characters not going balls out 6 in all skills and min-max stats is terrible.
I see way too many Strength, Logic and Charisma dumped to 1.

Issue B
Mystic adepts start with full mage + full adept making pure adepts feel completely pointless. It also means you are a mage with Maxed initiative without even having to bother with foci cheese... wich leads to

Issue C
drams + foci = a ton of F1 sustaining foci for maxed out buffs. With edge you can get 10+ hits on increased initiative, boost 3-4 stats with 4 each and the foci cost almost nothing in karma and nuyen. They are a factor 4 cheaper than last edition, not counting that you only need F1.
As a consequence, Disenchanting is a strong counter skill to disrupt the christmas tree of foci present on any decent mage. (I mean mystic adept, being mage is meh, projection is solo-play anyway so the other players hate it)

And, finally

Issue D
No doge on grenades and a damage value that is near guaranteed oneshot. Regular grenades are fine since all can run away but they just had to add motion sensor crap throwing this out of the window.

And, that is the end of rules. Outside rules I have found several sections being in a text-wise low quality. Like the rigget chapter about getting dumped making terrible references to relationships instead of drones. It feels like reading something a 14-year old has written in a desperate attempt to seem "cool".
I want to read about riggers and what they can do. I want cool fluff to be in the mini-stories between chapters but the rules should be rules, clear and exact not some teenager joking around and forgetting to clarify even half the stuff he is babbling about.

A lot of rules are very very ambiguous and require a lot of judgement from the GM to even make basic sense. I really wish there were far more clarity what thing does, better use of keywords (like what counts as attack, etc.). Is casting Swarm (illusion) on an area that happens to have people in it prevent me from shooting my gun just like tossing a fireball at same area does? Or is it allowed just like casting heal on myself and then shoot a gun is? (casting recklessly to make it simple action). What about creating a phantasm of a drone attacking, is that an attack?

[mister__joshua]

a) While this is an issue, it isn't a new issue. The SR4 Build Point system was exactly the same, scaling laterally while karma is exponential

b) I think this issue is being errata'd already. I'm not sure how far it'll go. Mystic adepts are meant to be better than adepts now, as they are higher priority on all levels. That may not be a change you like though.

c) Took me a while to figure out what you meant exactly here but I think I've got it. You're suggesting casting force 1 spells through sustaining foci and using edge to go over limit making them higher level, correct? Firstly this seems like a bit of a cheesy exploit that is easily ruled against by only allowing foci to sustain their level in 'hits' instead of force. Also, edge refreshes much more slowly now (one point per night) so even with the exploit I don't see how you're sustaining 4 or 5 spells reliably over a mission. One good disenchant and the trick is worthless as you say.

I still feel this is an exploit (and there were many in 4th edition too, and all other rpgs)

d) I haven't experienced this yet, so I guess I'll see how it plays out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jaid]

c) Took me a while to figure out what you meant exactly here but I think I've got it. You're suggesting casting force 1 spells through sustaining foci and using edge to go over limit making them higher level, correct? Firstly this seems like a bit of a cheesy exploit that is easily ruled against by only allowing foci to sustain their level in 'hits' instead of force. Also, edge refreshes much more slowly now (one point per night) so even with the exploit I don't see how you're sustaining 4 or 5 spells reliably over a mission. One good disenchant and the trick is worthless as you say.

edge is optional. the "drams" he refers to are drams of reagents. edge makes for a larger dicepool, but all you really need to do is throw a few hundred nuyen worth of drams at most force 1 spells to give them as high of a limit as you're ever likely to need.

[Sendaz]

just 100 pages of sketches of someone's butt and reprinted GURPS rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Actually I think there is a kickstarter somewhere for that one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And the $500+ backers get their butt sketched for it.

[BishopMcQ]

Just to make sure we are all nice and clear on this.

5. No posts that contain pirated materials, requests for pirated materials, or advocacy of pirating are permitted.

That said, don't be a troll, don't feed the trolls, and overall play nicely with each other. Thank you.

[Axl]

When I reached that page during character creation, I turned to my GM and said, "This table seems unnecessary." He said, "Yeah." We chuckled. Then we moved on.