5 way split, Splitting up magic? Options

[RHat]

most runners should be capable of sneaking at least a little, i agree there. but i would expect the street sam to be good at it far more so than, say, the face, decker, or rigger archetypes. not to the level of a focused infiltration expert, but better than most runners.

I actually expect more, stealth wise, from the face.

[Sendaz]

most runners should be capable of sneaking at least a little, i agree there. but i would expect the street sam to be good at it far more so than, say, the face, decker, or rigger archetypes. not to the level of a focused infiltration expert, but better than most runners.

I am curious as to the logic.

Street Sammies come in all flavours from Sharks (dangerous in appearance, usually with obvious cyber) to Barracuda (sleek and lower profile, but still just as dangerous, tends toward more discreet cyber and/or bioware)

Yes, some Sammies may benefit from more stealth/sneaking, but a lot capitalize on being the flashy muscle to get the job done as well as drawing fire away from the less armored/reflexed party members and do not bother with stealth, relegating that task to others, whether its the decker popping the doors & disabling security camera system for them to the mage providing invisibility, etc...

It all comes down to background and campaign really.

Saying that all Sammies by default should be more skilled in stealth than other roles is a bit off.

[Blade]

The idea is interesting, but I think it would just lead more players to choose only manipulation spells, since they are the most versatile. Maybe splitting it into three skills would be better, something like:

- Combat+Health
- Detection+Illusion
- Manipulation

[RHat]

The idea is interesting, but I think it would just lead more players to choose only manipulation spells, since they are the most versatile. Maybe splitting it into three skills would be better, something like:

- Combat+Health
- Detection+Illusion
- Manipulation

In that case, I'd recommend rolling counterspelling/binding/disenchanting into the third, so that they all cover roughly the same amount of ground.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

3) SR5 is the first edition that made Mystic Adepts, dare I say it? Powerful! No, no. That isn't it. Playable. That's the word I was looking for. Yeah, I'm cool with an option that has been around since the early days of SR finally being a real option. After Mystics took it dry with that "5 Karma per PP" nerf, I see no reason to further weaken them.

I disagree... I have been playing a Mystic Adept in SR4A (for about 350 Karma and several years) and he has been imminently playable. One of the most enjoyable Awakened characters I have played in fact.

[Blade]

I disagree. Manipulation contains both Mind Manipulation and Matter Manipulation, and both combined cover a lot of different cases. Most of the mage characters I see have at least half their spells from that category.

[RHat]

I disagree. Manipulation contains both Mind Manipulation and Matter Manipulation, and both combined cover a lot of different cases. Most of the mage characters I see have at least half their spells from that category.

Ah, but that same split is being applied both to Conjuring and Alchemy, changing the dynamics. If we were to consider just spellcasting perhaps, rather than the spell schools, three spell classifications would be better? Internal (Healing, Increase Physical Attribute, and such), External (Combat Spells, physical effects like Ice Sheet or Control Actions, Deflection), , and Mental (Mental manipulations, Combat Sense and most other Detections, Increase Mental Attribute), perhaps?

[Jaid]

I am curious as to the logic.

Street Sammies come in all flavours from Sharks (dangerous in appearance, usually with obvious cyber) to Barracuda (sleek and lower profile, but still just as dangerous, tends toward more discreet cyber and/or bioware)

Yes, some Sammies may benefit from more stealth/sneaking, but a lot capitalize on being the flashy muscle to get the job done as well as drawing fire away from the less armored/reflexed party members and do not bother with stealth, relegating that task to others, whether its the decker popping the doors & disabling security camera system for them to the mage providing invisibility, etc...

It all comes down to background and campaign really.

Saying that all Sammies by default should be more skilled in stealth than other roles is a bit off.

i guess it's probably got something to do with the fact that my very first introduction to shadowrun as a setting was "never deal with a dragon", and when i think "street samurai" i think of Ghost.

[FuelDrop]

I disagree. Manipulation contains both Mind Manipulation and Matter Manipulation, and both combined cover a lot of different cases. Most of the mage characters I see have at least half their spells from that category.

Then maybe we should make this a 6-way split:

Physical magic skill group: Combat spells, Health spells, Reality Warping spells (Physical Manipulation)
Mental magic skill group: Divination spells, Illusion spells, Manipulation spells (Mental Manipulation)

[Shinobi Killfist]

You know I just have not seen mages overpowering the game in 5e. Yeah they are versatile but that is their gimmick right now, its not like thy have jaw dropping power with force 10 stun balls anymore. Mental manipulation spells need a fix, but outside that I have not encountered a issue. they cost a crap ton in karma/priority to get the basics down and as versatile as spellcasting is the actual in game versatility is not as absurd since you don;t come with infinite spells.

[RHat]

Then maybe we should make this a 6-way split:

Physical magic skill group: Combat spells, Health spells, Reality Warping spells (Physical Manipulation)
Mental magic skill group: Divination spells, Illusion spells, Manipulation spells (Mental Manipulation)

Which gets to the "splitting it too far" problem again, especially if Alchemy and Conjuring is seeing similar changes.

[Jaid]

force 10 powerball (or manaball) has been replaced with force 10 ball lightning (and reagents to keep it from causing physical drain) pretty much. still wrecks everything in an area (although admittedly, magicians took a serious hit in combat effectiveness on the astral plane where physical spells don't work considering iirc all indirect spells are physical).

there will of course be a bit more drain (well, ok, probably a lot more drain) in SR5 than there would have been in SR4, but a mage can still clear a room pretty danged effectively.

now, as i've said before, i'm not sure it needs to be cut up into quite so many different skills, either. i do think magicians could lose some usefulness and still be at or near the top of the heap in terms of effectiveness, and i'm definitely not sold on the absolute complete and utter necessity of having every single one of the existing magical skills by any means (many of them are certainly more useful than they would have been in SR4, but you can still have a very strong, effective magician without them in SR5).

i mean, certainly, ritual casting is a more valuable skill in SR5, even without a ritual group to work with... but while watchers are certainly useful, versatile, and can provide a lot of effectiveness, you can still have a very very strong magician without any ritual skills. disenchanting and enchanting are nice, but not required, and so on.

is this the best way to bring magicians to be a bit more in line with everything else? i don't know. personally, i'd probably do gradual nerfs of the major problem issues, and see how much that does (for example, releasing errata dealing with how a force 1 sustaining focus and/or focused concentration interacts with a force 1 spell that has several drams of reagents used to boost the limit could certainly have a dramatic impact on just how ridiculous health spells can currently be).

[shonen_mask]

Then maybe we should make this a 6-way split:

Physical magic skill group: Combat spells, Health spells, Reality Warping spells (Physical Manipulation)
Mental magic skill group: Divination spells, Illusion spells, Manipulation spells (Mental Manipulation)

It sure do in fact fit the genre. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It's sure to unbalance the character creation process though making mages too expensive.....

[Jaid]

It sure do in fact fit the genre. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It's sure to unbalance the character creation process though making mages too expensive.....

matter of perspective, really. does your mage need to start off as a master of everything in order to be viable? again, not saying this is the best solution, but if you had the ability to either build a powerful but specialized magician or a magician that is powerful mainly through versatility rather than through sheer brute force, would that really be a huge problem?

i mean, it's not like every street samurai ever made is able to also fit in being a godlike face, or that every decker that was ever made in a shadowrun game is also an elite rigger as well, right?

most other archetypes have to focus on an area to do well. currently, mages can accomplish an awful lot of really powerful and effective stuff. splitting their skills further could potentially make the character creation process balanced, rather than unbalanced (it's something that we're not likely to know for sure without an awful lot of playtesting though, particularly since we've only got one core book to work from). now, it might also make magicians too expensive... like i said, it's going to take some testing to know for sure. but so far, magicians have seemed to have more ability to influence the world via various means than most other characters i've seen...

[Shinobi Killfist]

Outside of A skill mages they will be focused to some degree I'd think, unless they give up on every non-magic skill even etiquette. If even with a in skills you still come up short on covering your archetypes bases I think there is an issue. I just don't agree with the basic premise of this thread. i have not seen mages dominating the game or over shadowing anyone in 5e. They are versatile sure, but for the individual mage there versatility is not over the top and they don't top the field in any area they use their versatility on. They aren;t even close to the specialists. they seem to fit in as a solid generalist and support character. Are there issue,s sure but every archetype has issues a couple spells and spirit powers are broken but that sin;t enough for me to think the archetype as a whole is overpowered.

In 4e, I thought mages were too good. But with the increase on drain and the curbing of some spells and spirits durability they seem fine to me. The mage in our game is in a duel to see who is the worst in a fight him or the technomancer.

[Jaid]

if your magician is as bad in a fight as your technomancer, either your magician is doing something very wrong or your technomancer is not spending much on being a technomancer.

with a couple of simple spells, your magician may not be the absolute unstoppable beast that they would have been in SR4, but you should still have a lot of combat effectiveness, plus a ton of utility, just from spellcasting alone. i mean, literally, if all you have is spellcasting, your magician already gets a lot of potential. spirits may no longer be unkillable, but they can still be effective offensively and for utility; concealment, influence, fear, noxious breath; these four abilities alone can let you single out important targets and remove them fairly reliably. heck, even elemental attack can be pretty impressive (12P damage with -6 AP on a force 6 spirit, if you can stand the drain to keep one close) (edit: almost forgot, engulf + energy aura is also a pretty brutal combination, though of course it will be even better once great form spirits make their way back into the game) and if your opponents are dumping gunfire into your spirits, have you considered persuading them to stay down via suppression, by any chance? even one of your less impressive combat characters (ie that technomancer) can have a lot of value if you simply drop some suppressing fire on the enemy to keep them pinned down, since even low offensive dice pools are still likely to score *some* hits.

and with indirect spells, your magician can wreck people very effectively too.

this doesn't even get into stuff like using mind control manipulations, or how much of a difference it can make to be invisible during a fight.

if your magician is so ineffective in combat, it's probably either due to poor choices, or a deliberate decision to focus on other areas.

[FuelDrop]

If someone does get the urge to playtest this then please let us know the results. Heck, if it turns out to be workable then it might end up as an alternative ruleset in a splash book at some point down the line.

[Sendaz]

Heck, if it turns out to be workable then it might end up as an alternative ruleset in a splash book at some point down the line.

Why would they add a workable alternative? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Never going to make it as an editor with that attitude. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Just teasing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It is a tough call, you want to have a bit more flavour by breaking it up but if you go too far then it starts to be more number juggling than it's worth.

[FuelDrop]

Why would they add a workable alternative? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Never going to make it as an editor with that attitude. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Just teasing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It is a tough call, you want to have a bit more flavour by breaking it up but if you go too far then it starts to be more number juggling than it's worth.

That's the point of optional rules, isn't it? you can add as much complexity as works for your group and game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

matter of perspective, really. does your mage need to start off as a master of everything in order to be viable? again, not saying this is the best solution, but if you had the ability to either build a powerful but specialized magician or a magician that is powerful mainly through versatility rather than through sheer brute force, would that really be a huge problem?

It isn't, becasue you can do that right now, even in SR5. Again... Just because you CAN do something does not mean that you MUST (or even SHOULD) do something.

[Jaid]

It isn't, becasue you can do that right now, even in SR5. Again... Just because you CAN do something does not mean that you MUST (or even SHOULD) do something.

sure. that's why i'm advocating trying out various things to see how well they work. right now, magicians in SR5 are extremely powerful. now they're not extremely powerful in all the same ways as they are in SR4, but they're still extremely powerful, and could likely use some toning down... in general, there are *very* few, if any, builds that can't be improved by adding magic to them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In general, there are *very* few, if any, builds that can't be improved by adding magic to them.

This I agree with entirely. Take a concept, add a bit of magic and you tend to get a more functional concept. That said, only about 30% of my characters tend to be magicians of one flavor or another (though they often end up being some of my favorite charators, though not because of their power, as they do not generally tend to be optimized for magic).

1st Edition - Redlegs, Shamanic, Sorcery Aspected Magician following Wolf.
2nd Edition - Cain, Physical Adept, Gun (Pistol) Specialist
3rd Edition - Spikes, Ex-Ganger Physical Adept, Unarmed Specialist
4th Edition - Nexus, Cyberlogician (Augmented); Jenks, Mystic Adept Face; Ananasi, Spider Changeling Infiltrator/Thief (Augmented); The Serpent, Unaugmented Mundane Mercenary; and Dharkoni, Iga Clan Adept Ninja (Augmented), Throwing (Shuriken) Specialist.

So, in the last 4 Editions, Five of my favorite characters were Awakened, with 3 Non-Awakened in the list.

[Jaid]

so if you agree that magic is generally speaking a very reliable way to make "a more functional concept", how does that differ from magic being overpowered?

[Draco18s]

- Combat+Health
- Detection+Illusion
- Manipulation

In that case, I'd recommend rolling counterspelling/binding/disenchanting into the third, so that they all cover roughly the same amount of ground.

Hum. What about:

- Combat+Health+Banishing
- Detection+Illusion+Counterspelling
- Manipulation+Summoning/Binding+(Dis)Enchanting

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

so if you agree that magic is generally speaking a very reliable way to make "a more functional concept", how does that differ from magic being overpowered?

What your saying is like saying that "a Hacker can become more functional by picking up a Weapon skill of some sort." It is True, nothing more. Adding Magic will always result in more functionality. Just like adding Languages will ALWAYS add more functionality. Just becasue you have gained additional functionality, it does not mean that the additional functionality results in the character being overpowered. It just means they have additional functionality they did not have prior to the addition.