Improved Ability Question Options

[CitM]

Hi guys,

first of all two relevant passages from the book:

Skills:

p. 129 The skill Rating is a numerical value ranging from 1,
representing the most rudimentary skill, to 12 (or 13 with
the Aptitude quality) representing the height of sentient
achievement.

Improved Ability Adeptpower:

p. 309: This power increases the Rating of a specific Combat,
Physical, Social, Technical, or Vehicle skill per level of
the power. You need to know the skill in order to buy this
power for it, and you can’t buy it for skill groups. The maximum
improvement possible is your current skill level x 1.5
(rounded up).

I was thinking, why is everyone assuming that adepts can go beyond 12 and dont just reach the maximum rating at this power "faster/ earlier"?

It says, "skill rating is ranging from 1 ... to 12" and "this power increases the rating of a skill".

I know adepts could go til "maximum x 1,5" in sr4 but i dont get why it should be the same here.

Any ideas?

[Dolanar]

so your suggestion is that everyone except Adepts are allowed to have a 12 skill?

logic states that everyone is allowed to have the 12 skill which means that if this particular ability allows you to bring that up to 1.5x then 18 would be the maximum for an Adept with 12 skill + 6 power.

or are you saying if I brought a skill to 12 then bought the Adept power my Adept power would be useless? again, they would need to specify that sort of limitation & their wording implies that it can go above 12 for Adepts.

[CitM]

so your suggestion is that everyone except Adepts are allowed to have a 12 skill?

Yes, thats exactly what my suggestion was -.-. I just said, that adepts are reaching the final goal faster/ better/ easier; that is what my suggestion whould be and actual if you take the relevant passages its the only thing really "logic".

logic states that everyone is allowed to have the 12 skill which means that if this particular ability allows you to bring that up to 1.5x then 18 would be the maximum for an Adept with 12 skill + 6 power.

or are you saying if I brought a skill to 12 then bought the Adept power my Adept power would be useless? again, they would need to specify that sort of limitation & their wording implies that it can go above 12 for Adepts.

Very squishy. Should ... would.

Aptitude
Cost: 14 Karma
This quality is how you become even better than the
best in the world. The standard limit for skills is 12. Every
so often, there is a character who can exceed limitations
and be truly exceptional in a particular skill.
With this particular quality, the character can have one
skill rated at 7 at character creation, and may eventually
build that skill up to rating 13. Characters may only take
the Aptitude quality once.

So we have "The skill Rating is a numerical value ranging from 1 [...] to 12", we have: "The standard limit for skills is 12." and we have "This power increases the Rating of a [...] skill."

I dont see how "logic should state" any of your statements.

[Dolanar]

adjective: standard

1.
used or accepted as normal or average.

which means that under normal circumstances with nothing else modifying it. Then we have the Abnormal ability effecting it which states that you can go 1.5x the "Standard" limit.

[CitM]

adjective: standard

1.
used or accepted as normal or average.

which means that under normal circumstances with nothing else modifying it. Then we have the Abnormal ability effecting it which states that you can go 1.5x the "Standard" limit.

You have a point.

[Isath]

Aside from what the rule says

If that power would not (sort of) augment the skill, why would anyone in their right mind, be learning it?

[Cain]

If we go by that logic, remember that specific rules trump general. If it increased the Skill Rating directly, the limit for IA would also go up; so instead of a rating 6 skill capping with 3 levels of IA, we'd have a skill level of 9 with a cap of 5. And because the specific rule says the new limit is skill x 1.5, the improvement can go on indefinitely.

Basically, your reading leads to a That Way Lies Madness interpretation that could break the game. Better to use Occam's razor and stick to the simple solution: It doesn't affect the base rating.

[Godwyn]

Except it cannot go on indefinitely. Max ranks in the power will be limited by magic, and total value would be limited by the skill cap. 6 skill, 6 magic and 6 ranks hits both caps immediately. Alternatively, it is rather simple to calculate max ranks of the skill before the power is added.

While I do not think this is how the power is supposed to work, I like it. It helps limit some of the massive advantages adepts seem to have over cyber lately. While the adept will be able to get to a skill cap faster than with cyber, it will eventually catch up. I like it. And as for why to take the power if it works like this. Raise a skill from 9 to 11, 42 karma 21 weeks training. Initiate 3rd time 19 karma 1 month, raise skill from 9 to 11.

I like CitM's interpretation. I think it is potentially -more- balanced than how it is used. But I am pretty sure the intention is to let adepts get a total skill value of 18-19. And then, as usual, the cyber adepts can get 20 with a reflex recorder.

[Cain]

Except it cannot go on indefinitely. Max ranks in the power will be limited by magic, and total value would be limited by the skill cap. 6 skill, 6 magic and 6 ranks hits both caps immediately. Alternatively, it is rather simple to calculate max ranks of the skill before the power is added.

That's still rather ridiculous. That allows an adept to start with a 12 skill ranking, before factoring in attributes or other bonuses. Way too much, in my opinion. Nine is bad enough.

[Chrome Head]

Not to mention that the rules as written state that the improvement is capped at 1.5x rating, as opposed to being the improved rating being capped at 1.5x base rating. A pretty awful mistake, and I don't suggest that we should interpret the rules as they are written. If you really want to stick to RAW, it's pretty crazy, and the magic cap on an adept power rating becomes very relevant.

As to the interesting point by the OP about the rating of a skill being limited to 12 and how it limits that adept power. The question for me, again if we stick to RAW and don't try to interpret further, is which of these two rule snippets supersedes the other: "The skill Rating is a numerical value ranging from 1, ..., to 12", and "The maximum improvement possible is your current skill level x 1.5 (rounded up)." Shouldn't the second sentence also include something about the maximum improvement being capped at rating 12 total for the skill if that was the intent?

I think the whole adept power is worded too vaguely to begin with, and needs a well thought out errata.

[shonen_mask]

Not to mention that the rules as written state that the improvement is capped at 1.5x rating, as opposed to being the improved rating being capped at 1.5x base rating. A pretty awful mistake, and I don't suggest that we should interpret the rules as they are written. If you really want to stick to RAW, it's pretty crazy, and the magic cap on an adept power rating becomes very relevant.

As to the interesting point by the OP about the rating of a skill being limited to 12 and how it limits that adept power. The question for me, again if we stick to RAW and don't try to interpret further, is which of these two rule snippets supersedes the other: "The skill Rating is a numerical value ranging from 1, ..., to 12", and "The maximum improvement possible is your current skill level x 1.5 (rounded up)." Shouldn't the second sentence also include something about the maximum improvement being capped at rating 12 total for the skill if that was the intent?

I think the whole adept power is worded too vaguely to begin with, and needs a well thought out errata.

The second line you are looking for is the skill ruling that the limit is 12, 13 with aptitude, for everyone.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The second line you are looking for is the skill ruling that the limit is 12, 13 with aptitude, for everyone.

Superseded by the Specific Rule for Adepts with Improved Ability, or anyone with Reflex Recorder. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Epicedion]

Do recall that a starting character can have at most 7 points in one skill, meaning that they can get use out of (at most) 4 points of Improved Ability.

What this means is that to dump more into Improved Ability they first have to buy the skill up to rating 9 (from 7) at a cost of 32 Karma, and then gain a Power Point (probably for 13 Karma through Initiation) and then they can only put half of that PP into Improved Ability. Which then means another 2 points of skill (42 Karma) and another PP (16 Karma) before they can spend another half PP on it again. In other words, it's 103 Karma dumped into almost nothing but improving a single skill from 7+4 to 11+6.

If you really want to go for the gusto and get it up to 13+7 it's crazy more Karma, since you have to throw in a 35 Karma Magic attribute bump (and 49 more Karma in the skill) to do it.

In an infinite karma game, yeah, it looks like Adepts can knock the socks off mundanes, but in reality if you do this you end up with a character that's street-level in everything except a single skill, maybe having Improved Reflexes 2 and maybe having one or two powers at really low levels. And you'd better be really happy with your attributes, because you don't get to touch them for nearly 200 Karma.

So he might be able to shoot a cigarette out of a fly's mouth at 1,000 meters, but he's going to be surpassed in virtually every other field to pull it off.

[Cain]

Do recall that a starting character can have at most 7 points in one skill, meaning that they can get use out of (at most) 4 points of Improved Ability.

What this means is that to dump more into Improved Ability they first have to buy the skill up to rating 9 (from 7) at a cost of 32 Karma, and then gain a Power Point (probably for 13 Karma through Initiation) and then they can only put half of that PP into Improved Ability. Which then means another 2 points of skill (42 Karma) and another PP (16 Karma) before they can spend another half PP on it again. In other words, it's 103 Karma dumped into almost nothing but improving a single skill from 7+4 to 11+6.

If you really want to go for the gusto and get it up to 13+7 it's crazy more Karma, since you have to throw in a 35 Karma Magic attribute bump (and 49 more Karma in the skill) to do it.

In an infinite karma game, yeah, it looks like Adepts can knock the socks off mundanes, but in reality if you do this you end up with a character that's street-level in everything except a single skill, maybe having Improved Reflexes 2 and maybe having one or two powers at really low levels. And you'd better be really happy with your attributes, because you don't get to touch them for nearly 200 Karma.

So he might be able to shoot a cigarette out of a fly's mouth at 1,000 meters, but he's going to be surpassed in virtually every other field to pull it off.

Unfortunately, with the way Improved Ability is worded, the cap doesn't apply the way you think it does.

Because the OP postulated that Improved Ability actually raises the skill, and because the specific-case rule allows it to ignore the skill cap, you can start with an effective skill of 13+, and have PP left over. Also, for your hypothetical character, he could have low levels of Attribute Boost, which consistently take him to the augmented max. He'll be at least as good as a comparable character in many areas, *and* be able to shoot cigarettes out of a fly's mouth at 1000 meters.

[CitM]

Sorry for bringing this up again, but i dont think this is the final point here.

... and because the specific-case rule allows it to ignore the skill cap ...

There is no such rule.

The skill Rating is a numerical value ranging from 1,
representing the most rudimentary skill, to 12 (or 13 with
the Aptitude quality) representing the height of sentient
achievement.

"the height of sentient achievement", and then adepts can get +50%. It was right in sr4, but i dont get why it should be now. It does not even seem to be right.

This quality is how you become even better than the
best in the world. The standard limit for skills is 12. Every
so often, there is a character who can exceed limitations
and be truly exceptional in a particular skill.
With this particular quality, the character can have one
skill rated at 7 at character creation, and may eventually
build that skill up to rating 13. Characters may only take
the Aptitude quality once.

This power increases the Rating of a specific Combat,
Physical, Social, Technical, or Vehicle skill per level of
the power. You need to know the skill in order to buy this
power for it, and you can’t buy it for skill groups. The maximum
improvement possible is your current skill level x 1.5
(rounded up).

The word "standard" wich definetely refers to the quality-description and not to this power, does not say "do what you want".
The cap is 12, 13 with aptitude. Thats basicly it. The "skill x 1.5 rule" does not negate anything that was said before, in fact it limits it on top of the first rule.

So again, why is everyone assuming adepts can go beyond 12 that easy?

Edit: I dont want to argue. Maybe my english is not good enough to get it, or i am missing something. But for me it seems crystal clear.

[Curator]

it IS magic. i would imagine an adept who wants to run faster then anyone else, can run faster then anyone else. but then maybe a machine could be built to do the same thing. idk... now that i see that, ya 13 should be the cap

[tjn]

Edit: I dont want to argue. Maybe my english is not good enough to get it, or i am missing something. But for me it seems crystal clear.

No, you're right. Under RAW, there is no exception under Improved Ability to the hard limit of 12 ranks in a skill (or 13 with the advantage), and Improved Ability explicitly states it increases the rank of the skill. This would translate into Adepts being able to get to the maximum rank quicker than mundanes, but the mundanes could eventually match the Adept with that same maximum rank.

What most are conflating is that older editions worked differently, and how Improved Ability worked then was consistent with how Attributes, in general, work now. It used to be that improved ability did not directly modify the base stat itself, but would create a new modified stat that would allow characters to exceed the base stat by 1.5. There's the added bonus that this interpretation is easier to apply, is consistent with other rules and older editions, and doesn't effect the karma costs for improving the base rank of the stat.

Honestly I use this alternative view, but yes, it would be a house rule, but it is probably one of the most common house rules there are.

[RHat]

I would argue that it is at very least INTENDED for Improved Ability to exceed the normal maximum; it may well be that the removal of a strict "augmented maximum" for skills has muddied things a bit. And as was highlighted, if you look at Improved Ability as directly modifying the base skill rating (as in, the skill rating becomes 9 rather than 6(9)), you get into absolutely ludicrous situations - meaning that in some form, Improved Ability must stand separate from the skill rank itself.

[Sponge]

And as was highlighted, if you look at Improved Ability as directly modifying the base skill rating (as in, the skill rating becomes 9 rather than 6(9)), you get into absolutely ludicrous situations

Only if you ignore the explicit use of "current skill level", i.e., the rating before you activate the power.

[RHat]

Actually, you can still run into problems that way, Qi Foci being an example. But that's actually aside from the fact that I'm fairly sure the intent is for it to go past the normal limit.

[Glyph]

I'm... kind of boggled, here. Don't they talk about augmented skills at all in the skills section? Like they did in SR4? That seems an incredible omission.

Overall, I'm not liking how the adept ability works in conjunction with the higher skill caps. In SR4, the skills may have been horribly truncated, but at least a mundane with a reflex recorder (and sometimes a quality) could get within spitting distance of an adept, skill-wise. The gap seems a lot wider now, at least after char-gen.

[RHat]

I'm... kind of boggled, here. Don't they talk about augmented skills at all in the skills section? Like they did in SR4? That seems an incredible omission.

Overall, I'm not liking how the adept ability works in conjunction with the higher skill caps. In SR4, the skills may have been horribly truncated, but at least a mundane with a reflex recorder (and sometimes a quality) could get within spitting distance of an adept, skill-wise. The gap seems a lot wider now, at least after char-gen.

Well, if the street sam is going to have easier access to attribute boosts and an easier time scrounging the karma for raising the skill (as the adept has to spend karma in a number of places the street sam doesn't)... The sam gets his dice in a wider area, and the adept gets more dice in his smaller area.

[attilatheyeon]

I kinda agree with the OP. Not only do i believe his point is RAW, i believe it is probably RAI. I believe the devs stated that they wanted to reduce the bonus dice and increase the skills, which would go in line with what the OP stated. Also wouldn't this mean that at character creation, this power can't be taken to increase a skill above 6 total. By that i mean if i have pistols at 5, i can't buy 2 levels of improved ability regardless of my magic rating? Hmmm i still like it.

[Cain]

There is no such rule.



"the height of sentient achievement", and then adepts can get +50%. It was right in sr4, but i dont get why it should be now. It does not even seem to be right.





The word "standard" wich definetely refers to the quality-description and not to this power, does not say "do what you want".
The cap is 12, 13 with aptitude. Thats basicly it. The "skill x 1.5 rule" does not negate anything that was said before, in fact it limits it on top of the first rule.

So again, why is everyone assuming adepts can go beyond 12 that easy?

Edit: I dont want to argue. Maybe my english is not good enough to get it, or i am missing something. But for me it seems crystal clear.

I agree with you, for game balance reasons if nothing else. However, the OP wanted the ramifications of his reading. So, I'm going to try and see things from his perspective.

[Curator]

they describe the skills as 12 being 1 of a few in the world having this skill, so perfected and honed, they know no master to them in that field/skill. if adepts could bypass that, they would take over every professional sport in the shadowrun world, and i don't seeing that possible. they didn't before, they can't now. sure magical knowledge is something researched but so are these augmented players too, usually with so much enhanced specific gear that they have an edge on the adepts in a sport. nono it's capped.. it has to be. can they always have this power going? cause if so, it's almost a landslide when you apply it to whatever when you get high in the skill.