[X] My Assistant

[RHat]

they describe the skills as 12 being 1 of a few in the world having this skill, so perfected and honed, they know no master to them in that field/skill. if adepts could bypass that, they would take over every professional sport in the shadowrun world, and i don't seeing that possible. they didn't before, they can't now. sure magical knowledge is something researched but so are these augmented players too, usually with so much enhanced specific gear that they have an edge on the adepts in a sport. nono it's capped.. it has to be. can they always have this power going? cause if so, it's almost a landslide when you apply it to whatever when you get high in the skill.

That argument applies just as much when it's capped at 6/7...

[CitM]

I kinda agree with the OP. Not only do i believe his point is RAW, i believe it is probably RAI. I believe the devs stated that they wanted to reduce the bonus dice and increase the skills, which would go in line with what the OP stated. Also wouldn't this mean that at character creation, this power can't be taken to increase a skill above 6 total. By that i mean if i have pistols at 5, i can't buy 2 levels of improved ability regardless of my magic rating? Hmmm i still like it.

Honestly i think in this case there is no such thing as RAI. The intention here was to get fast trough the adepts-chapter, so they picked up all the old powers from sr4 and copypasted them into the new book. But yeah, maybe it was intended and if so, i like it. The fact that, like curator said, skillrating 12 marks the top of the tops, the best of the world etc. and adepts just like that could go to 18! made me read precisely.

I agree with you, for game balance reasons if nothing else. However, the OP wanted the ramifications of his reading. So, I'm going to try and see things from his perspective.

I do not exactly understand what you mean (based on language), but if you want to say that i actually want adepts to be less powerfull, that is just not true. I mean, like you said, for balance reasons it would be fine, but i am a convinced adept player and naturally want them as powerful as possible (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[RHat]

I actually think there's balance PROBLEMS if Adepts can't exceed the skill cap.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I actually think there's balance PROBLEMS if Adepts can't exceed the skill cap.

I would agree with that...

[Beaumis]

I actually think there's balance PROBLEMS if Adepts can't exceed the skill cap.

Would you care to elaborate on that?

I'd like to point out that reading adept powers as unable to breach the skillscap (Which I have to say makes sense to me) turns improved ability into a *major* karma saver. For the cost of a single initiation, an adept can basically get up to 4 skill ranks (magic increase + powerpoint metamagic). With a skillcap of 12 and a max improvement of 50%, that means taking a skill from chargen 6 to max costs an adept (14 + 16) 30 Karma to get to rank 8 and then the cost of one initiation to get to 12. Everyone else has to pay 114 karma. In the best case scenario an adept saves up to 71 karma. Within limits, this is also a repeatable process.

This is a decent boost early on and gives adepts quite some room to branch out mid to end game.

[Glyph]

How are reflex recorders treated with regards to skill caps? Or are they in the same limbo that improved ability seems to be in?

[CitM]

Would you care to elaborate on that?

I'd like to point out that reading adept powers as unable to breach the skillscap (Which I have to say makes sense to me) turns improved ability into a *major* karma saver. For the cost of a single initiation, an adept can basically get up to 4 skill ranks (magic increase + powerpoint metamagic). With a skillcap of 12 and a max improvement of 50%, that means taking a skill from chargen 6 to max costs an adept (14 + 16) 30 Karma to get to rank 8 and then the cost of one initiation to get to 12. Everyone else has to pay 114 karma. In the best case scenario an adept saves up to 71 karma. Within limits, this is also a repeatable process.

This is a decent boost early on and gives adepts quite some room to branch out mid to end game.

Besides that QI-Foci are rediciulously cheap now and you can get some Foci for nearly everything, since you can have Magic x 5 worth of Focipoints bound at the same time.

And even with this fix, i see Adepts much more powerful than regular cybered-chars, no matter it is combat, covert-ops or social (and like i said, i almost entirely play adepts myself).

How are reflex recorders treated with regards to skill caps? Or are they in the same limbo that improved ability seems to be in?

Since its nearly the same text, i would say yes.

p. 460 "The reflex recorder adds 1 to the Rating of a specific skill
linked to a Physical attribute."

[Beaumis]

Did I misunderstand this? I took RHat to mean that adepts would be underpowered if they couldn't exceed the skill cap?

Regarding QiFoci, the rules for focus addiction are pretty harsh this time around.

[CitM]

Did I misunderstand this? I took RHat to mean that adepts would be underpowered if they couldn't exceed the skill cap?

Regarding QiFoci, the rules for focus addiction are pretty harsh this time around.

Thats right. But addiction only kicks in if you exceed magic by force. So you can have all the foci but only 1-2 active at the sime.

[Jack VII]

I must be missing the point here. Why are we concerned with skill caps for regular humans when adepts are, by definition, superhuman?

Yes, IRL Peyton Manning (who in SR4, at least, was listed at a 6 or 7 skill rating, IIRC) is skilled enough to thread a football over the hands of defensive linemen into his WR's hands (well, discounting this past Super Bowl). Peyton Manning the adept would be able to not only thread the ball past the defensive line, but also through the hands of multiple cornerbacks and safeties while being tackled, blindfolded and hitting the guy right in the numbers. It's one of the reasons that Adepts are so regulated in sports. It's not that they have easy street to reaching peak performance, it's that they can go past that, IMO.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Exactly. Adepts are not Normal Humans, which are capped at Skill 12.
They can Exceed Normal Human Limits - Therefore they can have skills up to a Maximum of 18 (Current x1.5).

[Mikado]

Exactly. Adepts are not Normal Humans, which are capped at Skill 12.
They can Exceed Normal Human Limits - Therefore they can have skills up to a Maximum of 18 (Current x1.5).

I do not have the SR5 book so I cannot check...

Are there Dragons or other higher powered critters in the book that have skills over 12(13)?
If so you would have an argument... If not... your theory falls flat.

Edit: I have no side in this. I am just pointing out an idea.

[Jack VII]

Note that the skill levels in this list are average for a typical adult dragon. Individual specimens might exhibit higher or lower scores in any particular skill. This is also not an exhaustive list of any dragon’s skills.

Common Skills: Assensing 14, Conjuring skill group 12, Exotic Ranged Weapon 12, Flight 12, Perception 12, Running 10, Sorcery skill group 14, Unarmed Combat 12

So apparently dragons can routinely go over the 12(13) cap considering these skills are for an average example of the species.

[Mikado]

So apparently dragons can routinely go over the 12(13) cap considering these skills are for an average example of the species.

Well then I guess there is a better argument for Adepts going above 12... Thank you for checking Jack.

[Jack VII]

NP, I like how the book points out that there are no known examples of adept dracoforms, which would honestly be extremely terrifying.

[attilatheyeon]

Airn't cybered characters superhuman too? So i still think the intent was for the skill cap to work as the OP suggested. But that's also my opinion and i doubt any poster would be playing at the same table as me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Airn't cybered characters superhuman too? So i still think the intent was for the skill cap to work as the OP suggested. But that's also my opinion and i doubt any poster would be playing at the same table as me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Cybered Characters can exceed 12/13 as well, through Reflex Recorders. They just cannot exceed it as much as an Adept can.

[tjn]

Cybered Characters can exceed 12/13 as well, through Reflex Recorders. They just cannot exceed it as much as an Adept can.

TJ, I'm going to hope you've either found the special exemption for RAW in SR5 for either Improved Ability or Reflex Recorders to exceed the normal limitation and are just about to share what page or where in the errata you found that rule, or that you were talking to one of the players in your home game about your house rules and just forgot to state that for the rest of the forum.

What I sincerely hope you're not doing, is asserting your opinion on how you feel things should be as RAW fact, because that would just encourage discrepancies in situations such as at cons or during Missions.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

TJ, I'm going to hope you've either found the special exemption for RAW in SR5 for either Improved Ability or Reflex Recorders to exceed the normal limitation and are just about to share what page or where in the errata you found that rule, or that you were talking to one of the players in your home game about your house rules and just forgot to state that for the rest of the forum.

What I sincerely hope you're not doing, is asserting your opinion on how you feel things should be as RAW fact, because that would just encourage discrepancies in situations such as at cons or during Missions.

If you want confirmation, look at Missions FAQ. I am sure that Bull has addressed it.

[tjn]

If you want confirmation, look at Missions FAQ. I am sure that Bull has addressed it.

I'm looking at the Missions FAQ right now, and there is nothing even remotely in the ballpark. Similarly, there's nothing in the Missions errata to do with Imp. Ability other than it is effected by background count. If I have a different version of these .pdfs, please point out exactly where you are getting this confirmation because I'm not seeing it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm looking at the Missions FAQ right now, and there is nothing even remotely in the ballpark. Similarly, there's nothing in the Missions errata to do with Imp. Ability other than it is effected by background count. If I have a different version of these .pdfs, please point out exactly where you are getting this confirmation because I'm not seeing it.

Hmmm... thought it was in there.
Still, I stand by my Interpretation. It is ludicrous to think that a person could benefit from a Skill of 12 but not the magic that would boost it. *shrug*
Of course, I still think it is ludicrous to have skill ratings going to 12/13 anyways. It just was not needed. *shrug*

[tjn]

Hmmm... thought it was in there.
Still, I stand by my Interpretation. It is ludicrous to think that a person could benefit from a Skill of 12 but not the magic that would boost it. *shrug*
Of course, I still think it is ludicrous to have skill ratings going to 12/13 anyways. It just was not needed. *shrug*

I do agree, and as I said previously, I would use Imp. Ability similar to how magic and cyberware effect attributes for my home game. But it would still be a house rule and not something I'd use with Missions, because Missions needs to adhere to RAW for cases specifically like this, as there are players who don't have anything but the SR5 corebook to work with and have never been to either dumpshock or the official forums.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I do agree, and as I said previously, I would use Imp. Ability similar to how magic and cyberware effect attributes for my home game. But it would still be a house rule and not something I'd use with Missions, because Missions needs to adhere to RAW for cases specifically like this, as there are players who don't have anything but the SR5 corebook to work with and have never been to either dumpshock or the official forums.

Indeed... Not sure why I thought it was there, but I did.

[Sendaz]

Indeed... Not sure why I thought it was there, but I did.

It's alright... at your age memory does tend to go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

*sends warm soymilk and krill cookies then runs*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Note to self...
Check on disposition of team tasked for eliminating Sendaz...