Spin-off from errata concerning explosives, How to roll for mass-produced grenades... or not Options

[xsansara]

First of all, I am sorry about the derailment in the errata thread.

Still, I feel like I should explain my reasoning a bit better. The point of my building a grenade with the explosives rules is not that I think this is how it should be. I agree that industrial manifacturing is not covered in RAW and were I the GM, I would not allow my players to do it like that.

My point is that there does exist a consistent approximation of the rules which allows both a grenade and explosives to converge (whether you happen to agree with the rules or ruling or reading of the rules or not). Which is astonishing really, and nothing to be expected from a roleplaying game. There was another thread where we did the same thing with the Panther Storm cannon. I do not say that grenades have to carry 110g explosives, it is just that in reality they do and the rules work somewhat okay in this case. (Regarding limits, I happen to work in R&D and I do spend Edge on my patents, I am quite sure about that. At least I would, if such a thing existed. )

To give a rather famous counter example of what it means, if two set of rules do not converge: Unarmed Combat damage scales with Strength, unless you are wearing shock gloves. In this case, both rulings do converge for an average Strength person, but they do not make a lot of sense for high Strength trolls or adepts, who would do more damage with boxing gloves. This lack of consistency has been criticized in the past.

I am not saying that the explosives rules are super perfect the way they are, but, surprisingly, I have found (personal opinion here) that they are consistent with the other rules, and my example was designed to demonstrate that.

That aside, there are many points worth of critique: They are overly complicated. They do not make a lot of sense for really low amounts of explosives. For example, take 1.6 gramm of rating 25 foam which gives you precisely 1 DV, roll some 4 hits and you have a 5 DV bomb, which is very small, hard to detect and cheap and easy to make. I am not sure this breaks the game, but it does seem exploity and not the way things are typically done. For example, if I would build grenades, I would prefer this over using 110 g and the 2 DV be damned.

Personally, I am okay with the rules, they are way less broken than others. But I can see how others can not like them. I would just like to point out that consistency is not as much of a problem as it may seem at first glance.

[FuelDrop]

Just going to quickly correct you on the rating 25 foam point: because damage bonuses from hits are also multiplied by the amount of explosives it'd take 25 hits to up your 1.6 grams from 1 damage to 2.

I actually went up in arms about this when 5th first came out, but after a bit of playtesting I've found that it doesn't really hurt the game too much. Grenades are great at dealing with people, explosives are fantastic at getting past barriers.

Killing people with explosives is not effective enough is pretty much my main problem with the current rules.

[xsansara]

Hmmm, I think that is actually unclearly stated. I read it as square root of kg times rating + hits, while you read it as square root of kg (rating + hits). Truth to be told, your reading makes more sense.

To build the freg grenade you would then need 110 g rating 25 foam and 23 hits... that seems a bit off. If I calculate with 250g rating 25 foam, I need 7 hits. This seems reasonable, but really makes me wonder, how they can produce grenades as cheap as they do. The foam is 625 alone compared to a sell price of 100. So why not open a bunch of grenades, instead of buying the pure stuff, I wonder.

[binarywraith]

Hmmm, I think that is actually unclearly stated. I read it as square root of kg times rating + hits, while you read it as square root of kg (rating + hits). Truth to be told, your reading makes more sense.

Absolutely nothing unclear about the calculation.

Each hit on a Demolitions + Logic [Mental] Test
adds 1 to the explosive’s effective rating. See Barriers,
p. 194, for calculating an explosive’s effect on a
barrier.
An explosive’s Damage Value is calculated
as its Rating (modified by the Demolitions Test,
if you made one) times the square root of the
number of kilograms used (rounded down).

Basic order of operations. Take the square root of the number of kilograms first, then multiply that by effective rating. Rating is modified by number of hits as noted, so effective rating is base rating + hits. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.

To build the freg grenade you would then need 110 g rating 25 foam and 23 hits... that seems a bit off. If I calculate with 250g rating 25 foam, I need 7 hits. This seems reasonable, but really makes me wonder, how they can produce grenades as cheap as they do. The foam is 625 alone compared to a sell price of 100. So why not open a bunch of grenades, instead of buying the pure stuff, I wonder.

Especially given that, as I noted in the other thread, the test as written isn't an extended test. So getting 23 usable hits with the sr5 rules system would require a character with a maximum mental limit (Dwarf with all mental stats augmented to the +4 maximum, to reach 10/10/11, providing a mental limit of 14) to have 9 people assisting in a teamwork test just to clear the Limit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[FuelDrop]

Absolutely nothing unclear about the calculation.



Basic order of operations. Take the square root of the number of kilograms first, then multiply that by effective rating. Rating is modified by number of hits as noted, so effective rating is base rating + hits. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.



Especially given that, as I noted in the other thread, the test as written isn't an extended test. So getting 23 usable hits with the sr5 rules system would require a character with a maximum mental limit (Dwarf with all mental stats augmented to the +4 maximum, to reach 10/10/11, providing a mental limit of 14) to have 9 people assisting in a teamwork test just to clear the Limit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

or the augmentation that gives + rating mental limit. that'd help a lot too.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Just going to quickly correct you on the rating 25 foam point: because damage bonuses from hits are also multiplied by the amount of explosives it'd take 25 hits to up your 1.6 grams from 1 damage to 2.

I actually went up in arms about this when 5th first came out, but after a bit of playtesting I've found that it doesn't really hurt the game too much. Grenades are great at dealing with people, explosives are fantastic at getting past barriers.

Killing people with explosives is not effective enough is pretty much my main problem with the current rules.

My issue is you are better off getting through a barrier with a grenade than you are with foam explosives of a non-absurd rating.

[FuelDrop]

My issue is you are better off getting through a barrier with a grenade than you are with foam explosives of a non-absurd rating.

I don't know, a well placed explosive does double damage against half armour against barriers. Grenades don't get the half armour, making explosives the weapon of choice against heavily reinforced walls.

[Chrome Head]

or the augmentation that gives + rating mental limit. that'd help a lot too.

Or you know.. using edge.

[binarywraith]

Or you know.. using edge.

Yeah, but it's a pretty fair assumption that you probably aren't relying on an explosives expert pushing his phenomenal luck for every 110 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) HE grenade. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) Besides, even with Edge, you're still looking at needing a dice pool around 70 to reliably hit 23 hits, right?

[Surukai]

Can't it simply be that grenades deal and order of magnitude too much damage?

Kill range on a grenade is supposed to be some 3 meters while in shadowrun it is over 6 meters (18 damage, but target has 3-4 body to roll about 1 hit means it dies more often than not on 6 meters and below (18 - 6 meters -1 hit = 11 damage = overflow = dies within minutes)

The instagib factor of grenades is a bit high as it is, it is way too effective compared to other means of killing.

Knock 4 damage off grenades and things don't look silly with an army of super genius engineers making grenades. And you end up making grenades somewhat usable at your game table too instead of the instant-ban they have now due to their relative broken mechanic.



Yes, realistically you die if you hug a grenade, but if a superhumanly strong guy hit me with an axe I'd die too, but that Str 8 orc with Axe (+4 damage) is very survivable under SR5 rules and for a reason, oneshotting stuff is super boring and only makes combat clunky and not dangerous in a meaningful way.

[xsansara]

I agree with the assessment that grenades seem to do too much damage. 100 Nuyen of explosives could be 110 g of rating 9 foam, which has a base damage of 3. If I push it, I am looking at 40 g of 25 rating which would be DV 5. If I push that a little more with extra hits and bulk pricing I am maybe looking at 8 DV, not 16!

This would also address a lot of balancing issues. After all grenades do AoE AND cannot be dodged, making them still much, much deadlier than the aforementioned axe orc.

Of course, with a DV of 8, you would again have the grenade eating troll, or more precisely the troll that can sit on a grenade (without armor, even trolls should have trouble soaking 8DV consistently). But that guy can walk into bullets, too, so I don't mind too much.

[Sendaz]

Part of the difference between explosives and grenades is what goes with the blast.

I set off a small amount of C-14 I get hit by the blast. Not healthy, but overall its just concussive force slamming into me and tossing me back.

I have a grenade using a similar amount of explosive and have it go off it is blast plus shrapnel. Same amount of concussive force, but now I get lots of new perforations from the shrapnel. Two types of damage basically being rolled into one value.

The explosive may or may not have other bits thrown by the blast wave, whereas a grenade was designed to always have that added feature of metal bits, hence making it more deadly for its size.

It's why IEDs usually have nails and other bits wrapped around the explosives being used, converting it from explosive class to grenade/bomb class in damage potential. The explosive force by itself will wreak havoc, but the addition of shrapnel ups their game.

So we have to take this into account as well as the amount of explosive material used in the respective devices for discussions on this.

But then it should also cause a re-evaluation of chunky salsa as if part of the damage is based on shrapnel, the rebound damage off a wall should only represent the concussive force bouncing back and not the shrapnel portion as this may or may not be bouncing back depending on the wall/structure it is bouncing off of as the shrapnel would either be sticking into the wall or bouncing off and falling to the ground having lost most of its momentum.
I think Chandra suggested using the Multiple Simultaneous Blasts rules in place of chunky salsa, with the result the rebounds would be lower and better reflect the idea that its the concussive force portion rebounding.



........

Of course we could also be cheeky and say since grenades are basically both Blast AND shrapnel damage this constitutes two attacks on the same IP and thus violating the single attack rule and therefore not allowed, unless you are using them wirelessly which then allows it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

JK (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[xsansara]

But that would explain the high DV. You only get 8DV through the explosives, but through the shrapnel, there is another 8DV, makes 16DV...

[binarywraith]

Of course, with a DV of 8, you would again have the grenade eating troll, or more precisely the troll that can sit on a grenade (without armor, even trolls should have trouble soaking 8DV consistently). But that guy can walk into bullets, too, so I don't mind too much.

Yeah, I don't feel -too- bad about a troll soaking 8dv, if only because they're supposed to (fluff wise) have much more sturdy internal anatomy to be able to act like a human while being big enough that they should splatter when falling distances more than ten feet.

That said, I am fully in agreement with you that grenades do appear to be an order of magnitude more deadly than they should be. Especially given that a grenade rolled next to a barrier, a hit from a rocket lanucher, and demolitions charges strapped to the barrier all do DV x 2 damage to it. That means that grenades at 16P (for HE, 18P[f] for frags) are massively more deadly -and- better at punching holes in things than a shaped charge would be.

That just doesn't sit right at all.

But that would explain the high DV. You only get 8DV through the explosives, but through the shrapnel, there is another 8DV, makes 16DV...

Yeah, except the bit where fragmentation grenades (the ones designed to throw shrapnel) are already a separate listing at 18P(f). So we can't really count on that 16P being due to shrapnel. Especially when they -still- get shrapnel as a secondary blast if they're used to punch through barriers.

[Epicedion]

That said, I am fully in agreement with you that grenades do appear to be an order of magnitude more deadly than they should be. Especially given that a grenade rolled next to a barrier, a hit from a rocket lanucher, and demolitions charges strapped to the barrier all do DV x 2 damage to it. That means that grenades at 16P (for HE, 18P[f] for frags) are massively more deadly -and- better at punching holes in things than a shaped charge would be.

Except they don't. Explosives (that is, Explosives and not Grenades) get a bonus against barriers if they're set (Demolitions) on the barrier. Grenades never get the DV bonus or AP bonus.

[binarywraith]

Given that you can set grenades to motion detonation so that they will impact detonate, I suppose that's a GM call that I'd make. Still, even without the DV bonus it takes a great deal of explosive to equal that little grenade.

[Umidori]

I'm too lazy to run the numbers myself, but I believe I read somewhere on these forums that 19ish grenades strapped together does damage equivalent to a nuke as statted out in WAR! or similar?

~Umi

[Chrome Head]

I'm too lazy to run the numbers myself, but I believe I read somewhere on these forums that 19ish grenades strapped together does damage equivalent to a nuke as statted out in WAR! or similar?

~Umi

I doubt it does damage like a nuke at twenty meters. In the middle of the blast, what's the difference between being dead, and being really really dead? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Umidori]

Well there's also barrier damage to consider. With enough DV, you wipe out entire buildings, falloff or no.

~Umi

[Chrome Head]

Not really. If you have a massive damage value, you will break that wall. But perhaps only parts of it, given that your blast has a limited range. No way you can bring down a large building with 19 nades, unless you had blueprints and lots of time to determine the 19 most important key points and so on (and you were talking about a bundle of nades tied together). A nuke, even a small one, will at least wipe out an entire city block and poison the land for a generation or more.

[FuelDrop]

100 kg commercial explosives (1000 nuyen) plus 5 net hits: 100 damage, -2/meter, -2 AP. Not quite a nuke, but it's probably the easiest equivalent oomph for a runner to get their hands on (8R, provided you don't buy it all at once...).

[Godwyn]

19 grenades is nowhere near as powerful as Shameless self reference for SR nukes.

As a quick summary, using core rules and information on Little Boy, the DV for a nuke should be around 11000. Then the discussion goes on to how to actually limit it somewhat, as the core rules make it more destructive than that bomb actually was.

[Godwyn]

Also makes me a bit sad seeing how much of my physics knowledge has dropped away in years of not using it.

[Epicedion]

Given that you can set grenades to motion detonation so that they will impact detonate, I suppose that's a GM call that I'd make. Still, even without the DV bonus it takes a great deal of explosive to equal that little grenade.

You can do whatever you want as a house rule, but the rules are explicit and don't allow what you're talking about. Explosives in the book are far superior to grenades with respect to barriers.

[Sengir]

Especially given that, as I noted in the other thread, the test as written isn't an extended test. So getting 23 usable hits with the sr5 rules system would require a character with a maximum mental limit (Dwarf with all mental stats augmented to the +4 maximum, to reach 10/10/11, providing a mental limit of 14) to have 9 people assisting in a teamwork test just to clear the Limit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

The body of the grenade could also be viewed as tamping and therefore affecting effective rating or damage...