IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Yet another topic about edges and flaws, Effective Attribute Mods
Lilt
post May 3 2004, 02:17 AM
Post #1


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,965
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Member No.: 2,032



Looking through the SRComp, I noticed that a few of the edges and flaws modify the number of dice rolled on certain tests (Toughness, Weak Immune System, Resistance to toxins, ETC) and remembered a thread from a while back on these boards which discussed splitting attributes into different ratings.

The concept is simple: Allow the effective splitting of attribute ratings to a limited extent with edges and flaws. Possible attribute splits include:
Quickness to Alacrity(Speed) and Dexterity(Accuracy)
Strength to Power (melee) and something that determines encumberance
Body to System and Integrity
Intelligence to Logic and Intuition (Different from the split in the thread above)
Charisma to Likeability (needs a better name) and Smarts
Willpower to Confidence and Determination

The exact effects of the different splits I'lll leave to discussion.

Basic system:
A +2/-1 pt Edge/Flaw adds you to add or subtract 1 to these ratings. If both flaws are taken on one attribute, the attribute rating effectively decreases by 1 for all purposes. If both edges are taken, the attribute effectively increases by 1. Gamemasters may wish to limit the application of the edge to attributes which also have the Bonus Attribute Point edge applied to them.

This would be slightly cheaper than some stuff already out there. The toughness edge is a 3-pointer but IMHO it's not worth that anyway.

Comments? Ideas?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Arethusa
post May 3 2004, 02:31 AM
Post #2


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,901
Joined: 19-June 03
Member No.: 4,775



Honestly, while I personally hold with differentiating stats (Charisma being split into Beauty and Charisma; Quickness to Agility and Dexterity), I feel it's a very bad idea to graft it onto SR canon. If you're designing your own system from the ground up, go right ahead. But SR just isn't set up to handle this, and if you want to differentiate stats, be prepared to rewrite a very large chunk of the system.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
I Eat Time
post May 3 2004, 02:42 AM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 117
Joined: 29-April 04
Member No.: 6,291



It's a noble idea, and would add more realism to the game, but honestly, if you want to be that specific, go to a White Wolf game, where the nine base underivative Attributes make things really hairy. Personally, as unfair as it is that my character is ugly as sin but amicable (and still has a 2 Charisma), I like things on the simpler side.

Not that yours would be THAT complicated, just keep in mind that in essence you're making six new attributes to keep track of. And that the system is, as of now, incompatible for SR.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
A Clockwork Lime
post May 3 2004, 02:46 AM
Post #4


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,616
Joined: 15-March 04
Member No.: 6,158



Yeah, this is definitely one of those house rules that would end up requiring almost a total rewrite of every aspect of the game. Not a good idea unless you really want to diverge from the system completely.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post May 3 2004, 03:35 AM
Post #5


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



Honestly, after Fringeworthy, six basic stats is plenty for me. Fringeworthy had... Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Agility, Intelligence, Wisdom, Luck, Charisma, Dodge, Accuracy, and then a few more which I don't remember what they stand for (THR, STB, CRY, ATU, and ADA).

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TinkerGnome
post May 3 2004, 03:53 AM
Post #6


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,138
Joined: 10-June 03
From: Tennessee
Member No.: 4,706



The only real change that SR needs is the ability to "specialize" stats like skills. Pretty much take all of the mechanics from one and apply them to the other.

Body: Damage Resistance, Health (body linked skills)
Quickness: Physical Speed (movement), Dexterity (dex linked skills)
Strength: Lifting and Carrying, Forceful Blows (melee damage, skills)
Charisma: Social Grace/Appearance (Social skills), Force of Personality (summoning, astral stuff)
Intelligence: Mental Acuity (Intelligence skills), Perception
Willpower: umm... stuff and stuff ;)

Then PCs could do the standard specialization thing with it being slightly cheaper to increase specializations (maybe x 1 instead of x1.5 and x2 instead of x3). That way your street sam could really have Intelligence/perception 3/5 or the researcher could have Intelligence/mental accuity 4/6.

Of course, that's more work that I'd personally want to put into tweaking it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Arethusa
post May 3 2004, 04:22 AM
Post #7


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,901
Joined: 19-June 03
Member No.: 4,775



As much as I dislike such a system in general, I have to say that it potentially integrates very well with canon SR and adds a lot. With a bit of refinement, that's a pretty good idea.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post May 3 2004, 04:23 AM
Post #8


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



Which determines Reaction? Mental Acuity or Perception? What about in a surprise test? Is it any different?

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Arethusa
post May 3 2004, 04:26 AM
Post #9


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,901
Joined: 19-June 03
Member No.: 4,775



For stuff like reaction, I imagine it'd be the base score. For a surprise test, probably perception. At least, that's what I'd imagine would make the most sense.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lilt
post May 3 2004, 10:32 AM
Post #10


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,965
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Member No.: 2,032



@TKG:
I know the breakdowns to sub-stats aren't going to be perfect, but I have some suggestions:
I like the body breakdown. That seems fair.

Maybe link Stealth to physical speed rather than dexterity? I'm not sure if you meant this but it might be best to have Combat Pool and Reaction linked to physical speed.

Strength might be better split to Build (Skills and Encumberance) and Brawn (Melee Damage/Throwing Distance) as I think 'forceful blows' covers too much

That breakdown of charisma still means that ugly people can't intimidate as well. Perhaps allow interrogation and intimidation to go off Force of Personality and shift summoning back over to grace to reflect influencing spirits and careful channel of mana through the body (and so that there's no quick fix for mages). It may be best to leave the magic stuff on the base attribute rating to be honest.

Intelligence: Perception does Perception tests, Combat Pool, and Surprise Reaction (see below). Mental Accuity does everything else (including magic stuff).

Willpower: I figure my breakdown might work as follows: Confidence(Resistance vs spells+fear+social stuff, Astral Body, Skills) and Determination(Pools, Drain)

Reaction: If you wanted to you could even split reaction to represent Surprise Reaction and Normal Reaction. This goes with the split in intelligence, Normal reaction is what skills and initiative go off.

Just ideas. Comments welcome.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TinkerGnome
post May 3 2004, 12:35 PM
Post #11


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,138
Joined: 10-June 03
From: Tennessee
Member No.: 4,706



Both combat pool and reaction can depend on the ability to perform small, nimble actions as well as broader fast actions. I'd be inclined to base all die pools and calculated attributes off of the base stats (the advantages of specialization are hefty enough to warrant this). Specialized stats would still be limited to base x 2, so you won't see someone with quickness/physical speed 3/9.

The breakdown isn't perfect, of course, and Strength really would fit better as Raw Power (melee damage, throwing distances) and Focused Power (bad name, I know, but skills and encumbrance). I like Lilt's redone willpower, too.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Xirces
post May 3 2004, 12:55 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 345
Joined: 10-February 03
From: Leeds, UK
Member No.: 4,046



Some things to bear in mind.

The existing Toughness edge, adding a single damage resistance die is a three point edge - that's more than increasing the body attribute by one (obviously it can be added to an already maxed out Body hence the extra cost).

Most of the existing system relies on the fact the attributes cover different applications - CP is affected by Intelligence as perception, speed of thought and general cognitive ability.

Intimidation as a skill doesn't fit in with charisma as an attribute. I'm not sure how to better classify it though (Willpower possibly, but then you'd still get unthreatening trolls).

An alternative would be to expand on the existing edges and flaws to include specific bonuses/penalties for certain tests (ie, taking toughness and weak immune system already partially achieves the split without extra book-keeping). Same with the perceptive edge, I'm sure that appropriate edges and flaws could be generated to cover all these situations without radically altering the system and still allowing for greater uniqueness of characters.

Even a generic edge : +1 die on specific attribute test cost: +3 and reverse flaw for -2 would probably work.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post May 4 2004, 11:12 PM
Post #13


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



Here we go. Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Agility, Intelligence, Wisdom, Luck, Charisma, Throw, Accuracy, Dodge, Ability to Deal with Aliens, Hit Points, Psionics, Alien Technology Use, Crystal Use, Mental Stability, and Standing.

Never use twelve attributes when eight will do. Never use eight when six will do.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
A Clockwork Lime
post May 4 2004, 11:17 PM
Post #14


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,616
Joined: 15-March 04
Member No.: 6,158



I have to admit that "Ability to Deal with Aliens" is a great name for an Attribute.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lilt
post May 4 2004, 11:19 PM
Post #15


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,965
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Member No.: 2,032



QUOTE (Xirces)
Even a generic edge : +1 die on specific attribute test cost: +3 and reverse flaw for -2 would probably work.

As I said in my first post: Consider toughness to be overpriced. In this system Toughness would be replaced with a similar edge that only cost +2.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Arethusa
post May 5 2004, 12:42 AM
Post #16


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,901
Joined: 19-June 03
Member No.: 4,775



QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)
I have to admit that "Ability to Deal with Aliens" is a great name for an Attribute.

Hell, I'm just glad it has an ability reserved for standing. That is awesome.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lilt
post May 5 2004, 07:25 AM
Post #17


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,965
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Member No.: 2,032



QUOTE (Arethusa)
Hell, I'm just glad it has an ability reserved for standing. That is awesome.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that's social standing rather than how long you can stay on your fet without needing to sit down.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Arethusa
post May 5 2004, 04:03 PM
Post #18


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,901
Joined: 19-June 03
Member No.: 4,775



QUOTE (Lilt)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ May 5 2004, 12:42 AM)
Hell, I'm just glad it has an ability reserved for standing.  That is awesome.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that's social standing rather than how long you can stay on your fet without needing to sit down.

Aww. No, don't ruin my fun.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post May 5 2004, 04:21 PM
Post #19


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



Maybe it's both rolled into one stat. :vegm:

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 12th July 2024 - 10:12 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.