[X] My Assistant

[Drevicious]

Hello all

I'm relatively new to Dumpshock, but not Shadowrun. I've been playing since 1st Ed. but have yet to to pick up 5th Ed. and would like some feedback on whether or not its worthwhile to do so.
So I'd like to ask you all for some short honest reviews, thoughts, or a list of pros and cons about 5th edition. I just need some helpful input before I spend the little extra money I have on 5th Ed.

Thanks in advance

- Drevicious -

[Trismegistus]

In all honesty, I would sit on 4th for a bit. I like the Matrix changes in 5th, but there aren't any supplements for experienced teams.

Also, there are... Editing issues which need to be fully dealt with. I actually have high hopes for 5th in the future, but if you can spare the expense for now, it isn't gonna cost you much.

[Acenoid]

Started with Shadowrun 3, 6 months ago and still quite happy. Bought some SR4 + SR5 stuff though - never used yet.

Looks like we stick to SR3 for some time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Abschalten]

I personally would stick with SR4A (the latest version of the SR4 rules.) You have all the supplements out already and easily accessible, the rules are pretty well-developed, and the writing is more or less pretty good. The quality of the releases doesn't start to decline until after Ghost Cartels. I consider the release of War! to be a watershed moment, where the quality of editing, writing, and rules takes a nosedive into the abyss from which Shadowrun product line never recovered.

I cannot say with any honesty that SR5 is worth the change. I tried to like it, but (in my humble opinon) they fucked too many things up, and decided to lick the boots of SR3 grognards instead of moving forward with the line, resulting in many moves backwards. SR5 has soured me on Shadowrun to the point I have largely moved on to other games and decided not to give Catalyst any more of my money.

Now, that all said I am a huge proponent of people making their own decisions. I urge you to get a copy of the SR5 core rules and giving them a look over, and maybe even give them a side-by-side with the SR4A core rules and see what you think. I admit there are some areas where I think SR5 did great with the rules, and had some ingenious solutions to problems with SR4A. But the places where they messed up, they messed up big, to the point where it isn't worth it to take the whole just to enjoy the modest improvements they implemented.

[DMiller]

I'd stick with SR3 until more source books are out for SR5. Our group went from SR4 to SR5 mostly right away. We are having to house rule in a lot of source material to keep the game moving and not have characters lose capability. You'll want to wait at least until the main gear, matrix and magic books are out. Run and Gun should be out soon that is the first one. That is the main gear book. I'm sure there will be more digital-only releases between Run and Gun and the next major supplement.

[paws2sky]

I've played a few SR5 sessions and made numerous characters, but I'm really lukewarm about the entire edition.

For my home games, I'm going to stick with SR4A. For cons and store games, I guess I'll play whatever.

[Umidori]

Throwing in my (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 2 to say hold off for a while. This is pretty much prime 4E time, as the rules are literally as clear and cohesive as they'll ever be, and until 5E gets properly fleshed out it can't really compare.

~Umi

[SpellBinder]

I'm with Umidori and the others for sticking a little more with 4E over 5E. At least until some of the splat books are out.

[Glyph]

SR5 has some very poorly thought-out rules, especially regarding the matrix (particularly, matrix bonuses and bricking hardware), and some things are so vaguely defined or contradictory that I would hesitate to even call the rules functional at this point.

I would recommend waiting to get any SR5 stuff, at least until they have had some errata to fix/finalize things. Even then, I would hesitate to make the switch - SR3 and SR4 have both been around longer, have had mutiple errata, have a wide range of supplementary material (often available used), and have a wealth of house rules and other fixes for their problematic areas that you can find on the forums.

[Blade]

I'd suggest you wait until SR5 is out of beta.

[apple]

Stick with SR4A and wait for SR5 if errata and all core books (magic, cyberware etc) are out.

SYL

[pragma]

I know I'm in a minority here, but I think SR5 rigging and hacking are leaps and bounds ahead of SR4. As a result, I endorse the system.

Part of the reason I can do so is that one of the main complaints here -- that the extra core rule books aren't out yet -- doesn't really bug me: most of the excellent games that I've run or joined in on have been influenced almost exclusively by the basic rule set. (Though I'll concede that the magic book usually does make life better and more interesting.)

That said, I'm in agreement that there are some rough edges in the editing and "rules numeracy" of SR5. They're not insurmountable, but you need to be ready to do some interpretation or ask Dumpshock for its many opinions.

[garner_adam]

I played SR4 (I didn't stick around for SR4A) I think SR5 is a big leap forward. The limits system makes a big difference on skill spam. The matrix is much better because it's not just about using commlinks with good programs, you actually need a hacker. The system relies a lot less on extended tests than SR4. From my experience it also seems that super powered or down right bullet proof characters are less common in SR5. (In general I'd describe the whole system as more lethal than SR4) Though I agree with above posts that the editing is very spotty but it's worth noting that compared to SR3 and SR4 the SR5 book has about 120 extra pages and rivals many college text books in it's depth.

Like Pragma most of the Shadowrun I've personally enjoyed was with just the core books.

[apple]

You needed a good hacker in SR4 as well, not just hardware ...

SYL

[Drevicious]

Sounds like 4th and 5th Ed. Shadowrun are heading for a very split fan base like 3.5 and 4th Ed D&D

Thanks to everyone who responded to my question, looks like I'll be sticking with 4th Ed. for now.

-Drevicious-

[DeathStrobe]

You needed a good hacker in SR4 as well, not just hardware ...

SYL

That's not true. You could have gotten away with a good agent program to do all your hacking for you. A rating 6 agent is almost as good as max skilled hacker in SR4.

In SR5, a rating 6 agent is going to be nothing compared to a skill 12 and logic 6 decker.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's not true. You could have gotten away with a good agent program to do all your hacking for you. A rating 6 agent is almost as good as max skilled hacker in SR4.

In SR5, a rating 6 agent is going to be nothing compared to a skill 12 and logic 6 decker.

Skill 12 is just dumb... *shrug*

[Abschalten]

Skill 12 is just dumb... *shrug*

I am a big proponent of SR4A, and I disagree. Part of the problem with SR4/A hackers was that they had to grow outward instead of upwards. What I mean is, they hit their "max" in both skill and hardware entirely too early, and had to diversify into other roles in order to continue growing. I think allowing skills in general to go past 6 (and also scaling SR4 Matrix programs and hardware to a max of 10 or 12) would've solved alot of issues with hackers, and even let them keep up with late-game technomancers.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I am a big proponent of SR4A, and I disagree. Part of the problem with SR4/A hackers was that they had to grow outward instead of upwards. What I mean is, they hit their "max" in both skill and hardware entirely too early, and had to diversify into other roles in order to continue growing. I think allowing skills in general to go past 6 (and also scaling SR4 Matrix programs and hardware to a max of 10 or 12) would've solved alot of issues with hackers, and even let them keep up with late-game technomancers.

Different Strokes, I guess... I never had a problem (and still don't) with the 9 point Spread (Unaware to 7) of Skill potential in SR4A.
Problem is with starting character levels (It was the rare skill for me that started above 3, so of course I have no problems with the skill system) more than anything else. Well, and the way programs are modeled in SR4A, of course. It also did not help that they divorced stat from the Matrix, which was a horrible choice that they corrected in SR5. As for Technomancers, well, they too were horribly modeled in SR4A, which got some attention in SR5 as well.

[X-Kalibur]

I think SR5 needs a couple of splat books to grow into it's shoes. Once the cyber, magic, and matrix supplements are released we'll all feel better.

[Fatum]

I agree with the majority in this thread, but I feel moving to 5e should be postponed till at least a decent errata is out, too.
And I'm not sure I'll be rushing over, given the new matrix, too.

[DeathStrobe]

Skill 12 is just dumb... *shrug*

But you can't get away with ever inflating dice pools in SR5, like you can in SR4. So it makes sense that there are more ways to increase your DP in SR5.

In SR4, if you have your pornomancer (since they're the easiest to get high DP on) rolling 30+ dice in social tests, they'll pretty much destroy any semblance of game balance.

In SR5, they'll just hit their limit more often.

Really, did it make sense for the technomancer to be able to shoot better with a drone than a Sam who's entire archetype was dedicated to shooting people?

There were too many ways to cheese the system in SR4.

[Lindt]

How about this:

I played Sr3 for... its entire run. The last time I ran an Sr4 game it was at GenCon the year it was released.

Will I be more happy with Sr5?

[Smash]

I know I'm in a minority here, but I think SR5 rigging and hacking are leaps and bounds ahead of SR4. As a result, I endorse the system.

Part of the reason I can do so is that one of the main complaints here -- that the extra core rule books aren't out yet -- doesn't really bug me: most of the excellent games that I've run or joined in on have been influenced almost exclusively by the basic rule set. (Though I'll concede that the magic book usually does make life better and more interesting.)

That said, I'm in agreement that there are some rough edges in the editing and "rules numeracy" of SR5. They're not insurmountable, but you need to be ready to do some interpretation or ask Dumpshock for its many opinions.

I have no idea why I'm in the minority here either. Probably because I don't have a time machine, unlike everyone else and so I can't scoff at the direction of wireless mechanics based on what technology is like in the 2070s....... even then I don't know why that matters...... because this is like, a game and stuff, but I digress.

5th Ed is leagues ahead of anything in prior editions. How anyone plays 3rd or before is beyond me. Having target number AND pool modifiers makes no sense and statistically it's a basketcase. You can actually read the matrix rules once and have some idea of how it's supposed to work. I guarantee you that you will read the 4th Ed rules 50 times and still basically make all the matrix stuff up on the fly. Yes, like all RPGs it's not perfect but it's better, a lot better than Shadowrun 4.

The only reason I wouldn't upgrade to 5th Ed is if you want to keep the same characters that are heavily invested in another edition, because as others have said we're still on the basic rules at this stage. I've recently restarted a campaign because of 5th Ed and I think it was worth it anyway.

[Glyph]

How about this:

I played Sr3 for... its entire run. The last time I ran an Sr4 game it was at GenCon the year it was released.

Will I be more happy with Sr5?

I'm not sure. For all of the throwbacks to SR3, SR5 still seems more heavily influenced by SR4, to the point of copy-pasting big parts of SR4 to the new edition.

The good:
Skills, you will probably like more - the problem with SR4 skills was that they had too narrow of a range to represent what they were supposed to. The skill descriptions were over-hyperbolic, describing differences of a point (a third of a success, on average) as if they were wide gulfs in skill. This was compounded by the fact that you could hit the hard caps for a skill at character creation, and that skill was only about a third of your dice pool. A range of 12 gives everyone more room for vertical growth (a mixed blessing - being forced to diversify your skills was not always a bad thing), and doesn't give you absolute-best-in-the-world gunfighters who can often be outshot by Joe Average.

The mixed:
Hacking is greatly simplified, but on the other hand, they also have those horribly implemented wireless bonuses, and the equally bad rules for bricking hardware (messing up something's software, I can see. Shorting out a street samurai's wired reflexes so that they need to actually be repaired is a bit more of a stretch - they went too far in giving the hackerdecker "something to do.") - Rather than having them disrupt communications, hack drones, or mess with security systems, they gave them this, which, like the wireless bonuses, suffers more from implementation than the basic idea.

Initiative is better in the sense that initiative passes and initiative score are tied together again - no more someone who goes last but then goes three more times. The bad is that the difference between a high-augmented initiative and a non-augmented initiative is less than in SR4, and will be really shocking to someone used to SR3 speed sammies.

Limits are a new rule, a limit to how many successes you can get based on either a calculation based on Attributes, or based on a rating of the gear you are using. Some of the formulas/Attribute mixes seem a bit off to me, but overall, I like the concept. I remember reading a Gunsmith Cats manga where the main heroine, Rally, is facing off against a criminal, armed only with a Saturday Night Special, and she realizes that out of an extremely short range, her accuracy will be non-existent, and this is someone who habitually disarms people by shooting their thumbs off. I also liked the idea of having another improvable vector to soak up some of that dice pool bloat - there can be things that add to accuracy instead of to the dice pool, now. I have not really seen it in play, though, so I couldn't tell you how effective it is in practice.

Character creation is the priority system, which an SR3 veteran will at least be familiar with. But anyone other than a beginning gamer will feel constricted by this - it isn't as bad or limited as the SR4 version of priority that they had in Runner's Companion, but it is still a step back, flexibility-wise.

The bad:
The book really need eratta. Already we have things like being told mystic adepts will get a "fix" to the cost to gain power points (it is fairly easy to have a mystic adept with a Magic of 6 for spellcasting, and 6 points of adept powers). Some other things are vague, or cases where you have to house rule what you think the intent of the rules was, because the RAW flat out doesn't work, or is contradicted later.

Mages have been heavily nerfed, with higher spell Drain and much lower damage for direct combat spells. Setting aside the question of whether they have been over-nerfed, I can say that coming from SR3 to SR5 will be a major shock. SR3, honestly, is, in my opinion, the point where mages were the highest powered. SR4 nerfed them, and SR5 continues that direction.