[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You are not forced to use online bonuses just to justify the matrix. Right now, even without online bonuses or combat abilities, the hacker/decker is one of the most powerful and versatile archetypes in SR, as he is able manipulate the entire world, from information brokering/gathering to security system override to delay and spoof alerts and information when the alerts triggers.

If the devs would have wanted to make combat hacking making sense, they should have simply used the systems already working and accepted in SR34 (tacnet, drones, radio communication, online links - every thing was already in place, the devs needed just to add some addition rules or better description of possibilities) and not ditching the old system while introducing something stupid, saying that is stupid, not using it for their own adventures and then wondering why some people would have preferred other systems, because they want to combine matrix with rules making sense.

Enforcing people and the entire world to act stupid just to justify stupid rules which are not liked by the devs either is ... stupid.

If you really want to see how combat hacking while influencing the ingame physical world, check out CP2020. And that was 230 years ago.

SYL

Indeed... "Stupid is as Stupid Does, sir."

CP2020 had a great system for Hacking. The MENU was awesome indeed.

[DeathStrobe]

A Street Sam would be dumb to expose his cyber to matrix hacking, plain and simple. For him, ignoring that aspect does not hurt him. A HACKER works the matrix. And a HACKER has better things to do than protect his team from Bricking. It does not defeat the purpose of the game world to secure yourself from extraneous hacking attempts. In fact, it is good business to do so. The clusterf#@% of Wireless bonuses and weaponized hacking was just dumb from the get go, and was attempted in SR4. The design team recognized that fact and backed off on it. Unfortunately (and sadly), JH decided he was going to ram that concept down everyone's throat in SR5. So, when I play in SR5, I will ignore Wireless access almost completely, since I see no benefit from it. I will make sure that I have a ZERO Matrix Presence on a run to be sure.

No, it goes against the very philosophy of the genre. If you are a Street Samurai you are more machine than man. What makes you think that someone like a decker, who is by design meant to manipulate machines should not be allowed to hack a Street Sam's gear/cyber? If you are willing to sell your soul to become a machine, then that by definition should leave you vulnerable. Considering that Street Sams get a lot more of everything in SR5 helps reinforce that. They can get more dice than anyone for attacking, dodging, and soaking. And because of that, they should have more vulnerabilities.

And because this isn't a solo game, you should be forced to actually rely on your teammates. There should be synergy between the archetypes. A Decker needs the Street Sam to murder things. The Street Sam needs the Decker to protect his gear. So you can't be a one man invincible army. Boohoo. How I weep for the SR4 homogeneous archetype of everyone being a hacker with some other off skills.

[binarywraith]

No, it goes against the very philosophy of the genre. If you are a Street Samurai you are more machine than man. What makes you think that someone like a decker, who is by design meant to manipulate machines should not be allowed to hack a Street Sam's gear/cyber? If you are willing to sell your soul to become a machine, then that by definition should leave you vulnerable. Considering that Street Sams get a lot more of everything in SR5 helps reinforce that. They can get more dice than anyone for attacking, dodging, and soaking. And because of that, they should have more vulnerabilities.

Because you'd have to be an absolute idiot to sell your soul for tech that can be trivially externally manipulated. Especially when the stuff from five years back had all the same abilities, and -wasn't- easily manipulated. The stuff from ten years before that was even harder to crack.

[quentra]

Not to mention that the hacker physically cannot provide overwatch for all devices because he hits the master-slave limit real quick. Just think about it - an entire group with cybereyes, smartlinks, bits of miscellaneous gear that may be situational but would be a bitch to deal with if bricked or hacked, comms...and then you throw in everyone's 'ware? You hit the slaving limit a lot fucking earlier than being able to effectively overwatch all of that, not to mention the fucking book-keeping involved in tracking all of that fiddly bullshit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, it goes against the very philosophy of the genre. If you are a Street Samurai you are more machine than man. What makes you think that someone like a decker, who is by design meant to manipulate machines should not be allowed to hack a Street Sam's gear/cyber? If you are willing to sell your soul to become a machine, then that by definition should leave you vulnerable. Considering that Street Sams get a lot more of everything in SR5 helps reinforce that. They can get more dice than anyone for attacking, dodging, and soaking. And because of that, they should have more vulnerabilities.

And because this isn't a solo game, you should be forced to actually rely on your teammates. There should be synergy between the archetypes. A Decker needs the Street Sam to murder things. The Street Sam needs the Decker to protect his gear. So you can't be a one man invincible army. Boohoo. How I weep for the SR4 homogeneous archetype of everyone being a hacker with some other off skills.

And yet... Your entire Rant (and it is a rant) is nothing but opinion. Opinion that not everyone agrees with, even to the extent of some of the developers. *shrug*

NO ONE should NEED the Hacker/Decker to PROTECT HIS OWN GEAR. Making that assumption is entirely ludicrous. Protect their communications? Sure... Protect their Tacnet? No Problem... But protect their Smartlink, Cyber eyes or Wired Reflexes? Absolutely Not...

As for the Philosophy of the Genre - You are not quite correct in that particular assumption, as evidenced by the MANY systems that do not go where SR5 does, including all previous editions of Shadowrun itself. There are a few that do make some of the same assumptions as you do (Ghost in the shell for one), but they are not universal. *shrug*

Not sure where you got that everyone was a Hacker in SR4A. Everyone had the potential to perform some hacking actions, but not everyone was a Hacker, by any stretch of the imagination. Besides, everyone can be a Hacker in SR5, should they be willing to put in the effort. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Medicineman]

A Street Sam would be dumb to expose his cyber to matrix hacking, plain and simple. For him, ignoring that aspect does not hurt him. A HACKER works the matrix. And a HACKER has better things to do than protect his team from Bricking. It does not defeat the purpose of the game world to secure yourself from extraneous hacking attempts. In fact, it is good business to do so. The clusterf#@% of Wireless bonuses and weaponized hacking was just dumb from the get go, and was attempted in SR4. The design team recognized that fact and backed off on it. Unfortunately (and sadly), JH decided he was going to ram that concept down everyone's throat in SR5. So, when I play in SR5, I will ignore Wireless access almost completely, since I see no benefit from it. I will make sure that I have a ZERO Matrix Presence on a run to be sure.

Another Way of handling it (Since You're allowed to make only one Attack per Iniphase (which is another Rule/concept the Devs are ramming down our throats )) :
Simple Action :turn Wifi on Smartlink on
Simple Action :use Smart-Weapon with WiFi Bonus
Free Action :turn WiFi Off
....Hmmm
If I have a laserpointer, I could do this for a +1WiFiBonus (Remember: a Laserpointer needs free Matrix access to be able to produce the red Dot and thus give the +1 Bonus (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) )

or I could :
simple Action Take Aim
Simple Action Shoot Weapon with +1 Bonus
and I would keep my free Action
So actually its disadvantageous to use the "New and improved WiFi Online Bonus" The Devs try to lure into using....

with an On and Off Dance
Medicineman

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Another Way of handling it (Since You're allowed to make only one Attack per Iniphase (which is another Rule/concept the Devs are ramming down our throats )) :
Simple Action :turn Wifi on Smartlink on
Simple Action :use Smart-Weapon with WiFi Bonus
Free Action :turn WiFi Off

with an On and Off Dance
Medicineman

True...
I just tend to create a character who never NEEDS the Wi-Fi bonuses... Not all that hard, since they are not all that necessary to start with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

With an Unnecessary Dance? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DeathStrobe]

So? Change channel division, or encoding, or any of the other signal parameters. You'll have noise from the Matrix, but you should be easily able to build a p2p wireless comm system.

All that stuff has already been taken into account in the abstraction of SR5's Matrix. All of that is being handled by your firewall. That's why you use your Firewall to help resist things like snoop, being marked, etc. So you don't need to micromanage to that level anymore, like being forced to have a rating 6 response, so you can have a rating 6 system, so you can have a rating 6 encryption, so you can slow down the hacker, who's not going to be able to do anything anyways, because you have everything skin linked and effectively removed any Matrix threats from the game. Because heaven forbid a core system about an all encumbersome invasive wireless technological information network actually be able to contribute to threats to the game.

Oh woe is me, I'm a hacker who can code his very own milspec exploit software, and throw together cyberdecks to take on any corp host, but I can't close a leak in my firewall!

If you closed that leak in your firewall, then you've effectively made the game unplayable. If you can do it as a player, then so can the NPC's, and now you've effectively made everything hacker proof and have removed the Matrix from the game. Congratulations! Now you have to play a Street Sam, or become awakened.

Please try to keep track. Or are you internationally trying to redirect the discussion? The issue is not whether you can find parts to replace the burned out ones, it's whether you can actually get into the victim's anatomy to do so.

I already covered that. It can safely be assumed that all cyberware has some kind of removable panel somewhere on your person to gain access to the internals. Like Mr. Data from Star Trek. Then you said that everyone is different, so I assumed you meant the cyber must be all tailored made to the person, in which case I was attempting to illustrate cyber is made from mass produced parts, so there must be some standards to this. Does that help clear up the point?

The Big Ten are the ones making those rulings.

And all you need is more of the Big 10 to agree, to make them all have to do it.

Because it's much more expensive, and risks not only the expensive assets, but also PR losses. Oh, and it risks revealing your involvement to the target, prompting counter-moves.

I have to imagine that the PR costs are a fixed cost since they have to pay for news reporters or whatever anyway, even when not trying to spin Shadowruns that have gone bad. I don't know if it'd be more expensive. It might be it might not be. It's a hard call considering its a fictional setting. But counter moves is the reason the CC was created. To prevent the escalation of corporate violence between the corps. Which leads me back to the point, if the CC says so, all corps have to follow it.

No, it doesn't control anything near that. So, what, all the corps suddenly have the money to replace their network infrastructure overnight, plus the public networks, plus the backbone lines? Is the CC paying for that?

Who says they needed to replace any hardware? The new Matrix protocols is pure software, or at least until the Matrix book comes out and says otherwise.

Except modern cards are built with IPv6 support. So it'd be more like switching from TCP/IP to LAT or NetWare on the fly on the cards that support neither - completely unthinkable.
And that's without tackling the issue of moving the actual applications over to a new system that is not backwards compatible.

My knowledge of LAT and Netware is limited, but I can not assume that you cannot run those networking protocols on modern systems because of hardware limitations.

[Medicineman]

True...
I just tend to create a character who never NEEDS the Wi-Fi bonuses... Not all that hard, since they are not all that necessary to start with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

With an Unnecessary Dance? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, You're totally right
Its way better not to need the WiFiShip at all
But this whole -- urges me to find a way around the Rules
It's a Kind of Challenge or provocation to find a Rules-legal way to beat the System (with its own stick )

Hokahey
Medicineman

[quentra]

/stuff

If you closed that leak in your firewall, then you've effectively made the game unplayable. If you can do it as a player, then so can the NPC's, and now you've effectively made everything hacker proof and have removed the Matrix from the game. Congratulations! Now you have to play a Street Sam, or become awakened.

So instead of admitting that you can in fact write rules where such a problem is non-existent, your reaction instead is to claim that such an action is impossible?

I already covered that. It can safely be assumed that all cyberware has some kind of removable panel somewhere on your person to gain access to the internals. Like Mr. Data from Star Trek. Then you said that everyone is different, so I assumed you meant the cyber must be all tailored made to the person, in which case I was attempting to illustrate cyber is made from mass produced parts, so there must be some standards to this. Does that help clear up the point?

You can safely assume based on what evidence? I've never seen anything, ever, in Shadowrun cyberware, that stipulated they all had easily accessible interface panels.

[apple]

should not be allowed to hack a Street Sam's gear/cyber?

"Allowed" is a very wrong word this kind of question, because the other side would be "why must the decker swallow bullets and is not allowed to stand 50m in full cover, insivisible to the hacker?". Because, well, violence is a core concept in RPGs and in the cyberpunk genre as well. If you allow the hacker to be in cover and hacking, while not being shot at, then you must allow the samurai to get into full cover against the hacker as well (and not being hacked).

That said: there are plenty of ways to make combat hacking viable and interesting (some of them worked for the last 20 years). There is no need for "I enforce your cyberware to be online just that a combat hacker is viable", there are severeal far more elegant, tested and logic ways to do that.

A Decker needs the Street Sam to murder things.

No, he does not. He just can manipulate the environment or drones to do that. A mage does not need a sam either, he can use spells and spirits for that. It is only the street sam who needs magical and/or hacking protection - when it comes to SR he is perhaps the archetype who can be replaced most easily, as "combat" can be solved by several other things (sometimes better, sometimes worse). So no, to be halfway effective he should need to have a hacker on protection duty. He should need a hacker to complete the team for hacking purposes. For the rest there are tacnets, drones, radio communication and/or online links with DNI control (just as a hint how it could have been solved without the shitstorm and devs who think that their own rules are stupid).

SYL

[Fatum]

No, it goes against the very philosophy of the genre. If you are a Street Samurai you are more machine than man. What makes you think that someone like a decker, who is by design meant to manipulate machines should not be allowed to hack a Street Sam's gear/cyber? If you are willing to sell your soul to become a machine, then that by definition should leave you vulnerable. Considering that Street Sams get a lot more of everything in SR5 helps reinforce that. They can get more dice than anyone for attacking, dodging, and soaking. And because of that, they should have more vulnerabilities.

Awakening should make you hackable, by that logic.

[apple]

Who says they needed to replace any hardware?

Then of course my next question would be: why can´t I use my old equipment? You know the thing which run on old protocols which I never updated. Perhaps I have a hacker friend who wrote the programs himself? Well, a link needs to update to connect to the new matrix or at least a converter software. But why exactly went my DNI controled airtank dark in my own nerve system and out of nowwhere I received an email asking me to go online with an update to check out my air status?

Again, I advise you the check out some of the other editions and games just to see how combat hacking was done there. 20 years ago. Tested and approved (and in some cases even well beloved without hurting your fragile logic centre in your brain).

SYL

[Glyph]

No, it goes against the very philosophy of the genre. If you are a Street Samurai you are more machine than man. What makes you think that someone like a decker, who is by design meant to manipulate machines should not be allowed to hack a Street Sam's gear/cyber? If you are willing to sell your soul to become a machine, then that by definition should leave you vulnerable. Considering that Street Sams get a lot more of everything in SR5 helps reinforce that. They can get more dice than anyone for attacking, dodging, and soaking. And because of that, they should have more vulnerabilities.

The trouble with that as a justification of wireless hacking is that you can still turn it off, even if you are more machine than man. Your smartlink may not work as well, and your wired reflexes may not be able to work in conjunction with your reaction enhancers, but otherwise you are fine. The biggest problem with wireless bonuses is their implementation - either have a few pieces of gear nerfed, or be vulnerable to hacking. Hacking would have been so much better if they had expanded rules for tactical networks, remote-controlled drones, and security communications - things that make sense being wireless.

[Fatum]

All that stuff has already been taken into account in the abstraction of SR5's Matrix. All of that is being handled by your firewall.

So, my firewall prevents the devices in my PAN from interacting with each other without a Matrix uplink? Is it cutting tight-beam communications and wired connections, too? It's a bit too fire- for my liking, if such.

If you closed that leak in your firewall, then you've effectively made the game unplayable. If you can do it as a player, then so can the NPC's, and now you've effectively made everything hacker proof and have removed the Matrix from the game. Congratulations! Now you have to play a Street Sam, or become awakened.

Please try to keep track; I am my suggestion of plugging a leak is related to stopping your gear from ratting you out to GOD, as you suggested. The NPCs plugging it will change exactly nothing for a hacker.

I already covered that. It can safely be assumed that all cyberware has some kind of removable panel somewhere on your person to gain access to the internals.

For the fourth Marxist time, that'd require access panels across your body for invasive implants like wired reflexes. This is simply not realistic.

And all you need is more of the Big 10 to agree, to make them all have to do it.

Sure, except not a single sane mega would agree to having others' operatives in its network with elevated rights.

I have to imagine that the PR costs are a fixed cost since they have to pay for news reporters or whatever anyway, even when not trying to spin Shadowruns that have gone bad. I don't know if it'd be more expensive. It might be it might not be. It's a hard call considering its a fictional setting. But counter moves is the reason the CC was created. To prevent the escalation of corporate violence between the corps. Which leads me back to the point, if the CC says so, all corps have to follow it.

You seem to completely misunderstand the purpose and authority of the CC. It's a gentleman's club; it wields no power of its own - only as much as megas invest into it. And while yeah, it can interfere to stop a full-scale corporate war, those are not anywhere near common for a caught operative that can be traced to the source. Not for fear of the CC, but for the good old fear of escalation given mutual assured destruction.

Who says they needed to replace any hardware? The new Matrix protocols is pure software, or at least until the Matrix book comes out and says otherwise.

Why aren't they pure magic, while you're at inventing far-fetched excuses for CGL bullshit?

My knowledge of LAT and Netware is limited, but I can not assume that you cannot run those networking protocols on modern systems because of hardware limitations.

You can by now; there are however a few cases of hardware still being incompatible, despite years-long usage. Such as wifi.letters, for instance. EDGE and LTE - oh, here's a good example for your wireless. Why don't you update your LTE-incompatible cellphone into compatibility?

[Dolanar]

Hmm, going around the WiFi thing...an agent running whose sole role is to turn all WiFi signals off? Perhaps a free action to turn on, shoot, then the agent turns it all off again?

[apple]

Sure, except not a single sane mega would agree to having others' operatives in its network with elevated rights.

It would be a little bit like "during the cold war in the 1960s the USA and the Soviet-union exchanged a nuclear missle silo because the UN said so". That would surely work. Both the POTUS and the general secretary would love that, I am sure of that.

SYL

[Dolanar]

Doubled bleh

[binarywraith]

True...
I just tend to create a character who never NEEDS the Wi-Fi bonuses... Not all that hard, since they are not all that necessary to start with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

With an Unnecessary Dance? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Part of why my Missions character to test the rules with is my cowboy adept. No school like the old school when it comes to pistols. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Part of why my Missions character to test the rules with is my cowboy adept. No school like the old school when it comes to pistols. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Indeed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DeathStrobe]

So instead of admitting that you can in fact write rules where such a problem is non-existent, your reaction instead is to claim that such an action is impossible?

Fine. What are these theoretical rules you are speaking of?

You can safely assume based on what evidence? I've never seen anything, ever, in Shadowrun cyberware, that stipulated they all had easily accessible interface panels.

The cover of Shadowtech maybe?

Or I guess, if you want, you can go under the knife everytime you're cyberware is bricked. You can either make the game playable and consistent in logic, or you can choose to make it unplayable and still consistent with logic. Your call.

[DeathStrobe]

He should need a hacker to complete the team for hacking purposes. For the rest there are tacnets, drones, radio communication and/or online links with DNI control (just as a hint how it could have been solved without the shitstorm and devs who think that their own rules are stupid).

SYL

And to be fair, you can still do ALL of those things still. All, but tacnets, but that's only because the rules aren't there yet. Spoof can send false and confusing messages, and also send false commands to drones. You can also remote control drones, or even jump in if you have an VCR. You can snoop wireless communications. You can still edit camera feeds. You can still do ALL of that same things, which I do admit is really cool, and very much something for hackers to do. But now you also get the option to make devices fail. Why would you be against having more options?

The idea of the cyber cowboy, and actually making cybercombat useful is a GREAT thing. Honestly, cybercombat was completely useless in SR4. It was always better to just go and finish your hack and jack out then it was to stay and fight the IC or spider.

[DeathStrobe]

Awakening should make you hackable, by that logic.

Then it'd defeat the point of having the Matrix and Magic be two different systems with opposed philosophies. The idea is that Matrix effects, meat and tech. While Magic effects the astral and meat. Magic is emotions and life, and the Matrix is cold calculating machines.

[DeathStrobe]

Then of course my next question would be: why can´t I use my old equipment? You know the thing which run on old protocols which I never updated. Perhaps I have a hacker friend who wrote the programs himself? Well, a link needs to update to connect to the new matrix or at least a converter software. But why exactly went my DNI controled airtank dark in my own nerve system and out of nowwhere I received an email asking me to go online with an update to check out my air status?

Again, I advise you the check out some of the other editions and games just to see how combat hacking was done there. 20 years ago. Tested and approved (and in some cases even well beloved without hurting your fragile logic centre in your brain).

SYL

You probably can, but it won't work with the new Matrix. And such devices would be so rare that they wouldn't be covered by the rules. That'd be a pretty edge case, so it'd require houseruling.

[Koekepan]

You probably can, but it won't work with the new Matrix. And such devices would be so rare that they wouldn't be covered by the rules. That'd be a pretty edge case, so it'd require houseruling.

This would be awesome.

My first character under this ruleset is going to be a cyberdoc/technician. Shadowruns? Hah. He's going to use those wonderful knowledge and technical skills to build cybernetic lungs which are not vulnerable to Matrix crap, nor reliant upon it to function.

He's going to accept cash money in advance, because anyone who doesn't have it in hand when they show up can go to the back of the line.

And he will be rich. Every street sammy and infiltrator is going to come to him, and they will be polite. They will say yes, sir, and they will say no, sir. They will band together to annihilate any slot stupid enough to look funny at him.

King of the streets, all because the major manufacturers paid no attention to their customers. Life is sweet!