[X] My Assistant

[Smash]

I would. I did. I set my SR4 book on fire, planted its ashes, and salted the earth so that nothing would grow from it. Right next to my D&D4 book. I hold them in approximately the same regard.

Haha! Epic. I disolved by 4th ED D&D books in Acid so that no-one would know what happened.

Players - Hey, let's play some 4th Ed.
Me - Ah... Ok. Oh where are the books? Oh well, Let's just play Pathfinder instead.

The only problem was that I needed a lot of acid because for Some reason WotC needed to release a new book for each feat/class/skill in the game..........

[KCKitsune]

Haha! Epic. I disolved by 4th ED D&D books in Acid so that no-one would know what happened.

Players - Hey, let's play some 4th Ed.
Me - Ah... Ok. Oh where are the books? Oh well, Let's just play Pathfinder instead.

The only problem was that I needed a lot of acid because for Some reason WotC needed to release a new book for each feat/class/skill in the game..........

There is no 4th edition of D&D... It was just WotC pen and paper version of Everquest/WoW/<insert flavor of the month MMORPG>... and a poorly implemented version of it too. I like 3.5 edition of D&D. Yeah, it can get to be a power-gamer's dream, but if you have decent player who don't pull crap like that it can make it so that you can have the character YOU want, not some "12th level magic user" who is EXACTLY like another person's "12th level magic user".

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There is no 4th edition of D&D... It was just WotC pen and paper version of Everquest/WoW/<insert flavor of the month MMORPG>... and a poorly implemented version of it too. I like 3.5 edition of D&D. Yeah, it can get to be a power-gamer's dream, but if you have decent player who don't pull crap like that it can make it so that you can have the character YOU want, not some "12th level magic user" who is EXACTLY like another person's "12th level magic user".

Very Much in Agreement on this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[DrZaius]

There is no 4th edition of D&D... It was just WotC pen and paper version of Everquest/WoW/<insert flavor of the month MMORPG>... and a poorly implemented version of it too. I like 3.5 edition of D&D. Yeah, it can get to be a power-gamer's dream, but if you have decent player who don't pull crap like that it can make it so that you can have the character YOU want, not some "12th level magic user" who is EXACTLY like another person's "12th level magic user".

I dunno; I had mixed feelings about 4th. It was a nice change of pace that once you got to 5th level, all the other players weren't the mage's sidekicks. However, I could see how a mage-centric system would appeal to Shadowrun players... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I dunno; I had mixed feelings about 4th. It was a nice change of pace that once you got to 5th level, all the other players weren't the mage's sidekicks. However, I could see how a mage-centric system would appeal to Shadowrun players... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Interesting take. In our last game, the magician was the Dwarven Warrior's Sidekick more than the other way around (DnD 3.5). But I do take your meaning. Hated, Hated. Hated 4th Edition, though. In good part because I despise miniatures and the rules that go with them. The fact that everyone was functionally the same sucked as well. Hated the system to the depths of its core. *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DrZaius]

Interesting take. In our last game, the magician was the Dwarven Warrior's Sidekick more than the other way around (DnD 3.5). But I do take your meaning. Hated, Hated. Hated 4th Edition, though. In good part because I despise miniatures and the rules that go with them. The fact that everyone was functionally the same sucked as well. Hated the system to the depths of its core. *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I agree calling it Dungeons & Dragons is a misnomer. It's not D&D, it's something else; a tactical board-game with some light RP elements. I didn't hate it, but I can see why others did. From what I've heard about 5th, it sounds like 4th is going to be an anomaly, and they're going back to their grognard roots.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree calling it Dungeons & Dragons is a misnomer. It's not D&D, it's something else; a tactical board-game with some light RP elements. I didn't hate it, but I can see why others did. From what I've heard about 5th, it sounds like 4th is going to be an anomaly, and they're going back to their grognard roots.

Maybe... I did not like 5th (Participated in the Beta Testing). Hard to say why.
Probably because 3.5 works well for me, and I have all the books. I absolutely hate buying a new edition's worth of books.

[Epicedion]

Maybe... I did not like 5th (Participated in the Beta Testing). Hard to say why.
Probably because 3.5 works well for me, and I have all the books. I absolutely hate buying a new edition's worth of books.

To be fair, you'd have to specify which version of the 5th playtest you're talking about. There were incredibly huge differences between releases and I don't think anyone outside the designers know exactly which systems they're running with. The overall trend toward reducing numbers inflation, unnecessary rules complexity, and many of the largely irrelevant choices (see: hundreds of feats that do virtually nothing) bodes well for the edition and the brand as a whole. I love D&D3.x as much as anyone, but I find it pretty tedious sometimes.

Re: D&D4, the worst thing I can say about it is that it's tedious and requires too much bookkeeping and table management.

To swing back to SR, tedium is what destroys SR4 in my book. The primary culprit is the large number of extended tests that involve throwing gobs of dice over and over until success. By relying heavily on extended tests instead of opposed tests for a large number of systems, it pretty much codifies the idea that you'll always succeed at what you set your mind to (but you'll be bored of dice by the time you get there, see: buying anything ever). That's slow and unexciting.

SR5 solves a lot of that by bringing back time division (base time divided by successes).

[Fatum]

An extended test of any size is rolled in one bot/dice program command. While the new system gives you a chance to fail even the simplest tasks, much less anything complex, as we have mathcrunched.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

To swing back to SR, tedium is what destroys SR4 in my book. The primary culprit is the large number of extended tests that involve throwing gobs of dice over and over until success. By relying heavily on extended tests instead of opposed tests for a large number of systems, it pretty much codifies the idea that you'll always succeed at what you set your mind to (but you'll be bored of dice by the time you get there, see: buying anything ever). That's slow and unexciting.

SR5 solves a lot of that by bringing back time division (base time divided by successes).

If the expected outcome is to succeed, regardless... Why are you rolling dice? Narrate and move on.

My experiences are obviously a bit different than yours, but I do understand your position. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Tedium accrues as an Edition progresses. SR5 will have the same issues over time, just like all of its predecessors did (after a certain point, new content starts to get overwhelming for some people). Core books are fairly robust by themselves, but as an edition progresses and more content is added, you gain more options. Those options by their very nature promote the tedium that you are speaking against.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

An extended test of any size is rolled in one bot/dice program command. While the new system gives you a chance to fail even the simplest tasks, much less anything complex, as we have mathcrunched.

Indeed...

[Epicedion]

An extended test of any size is rolled in one bot/dice program command.

Most dice can't run programs.

While the new system gives you a chance to fail even the simplest tasks, much less anything complex, as we have mathcrunched.

So? Isn't having a chance of failure why you use the dice in the first place?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So? Isn't having a chance of failure why you use the dice in the first place?

And yet, Simple tests are exactly that... Simple.

[Fatum]

Most dice can't run programs.

Most phones can, though. Which millennium are you living in?

So? Isn't having a chance of failure why you use the dice in the first place?

No, Extended tests are primarily used to determine the time it takes to complete the task. Simple ("Success") tests are used to determine success.

[Epicedion]

Most phones can, though. Which millennium are you living in?

Problem: terrible system.
Solution: automate it so you don't have to see how terrible it is?

Sorry, no.

No, Extended tests are primarily used to determine the time it takes to complete the task. Simple ("Success") tests are used to determine success.

So you should have an expectation of success any time you start an extended test?

[yesferatu]

Without exception, I prefer 4th ed. rules.
Character creation was more customizable and easier.
Combat rules weren't as simultaneously complicated and nerfed.
Matrix rules were admittedly difficult, but the new rules take just as long and are every bit as convoluted.
5th ed. did not fix the melee problem and made Edge even more broken.
5th edition hates Riggers.

I'll admit 4th ed. had like 4 different versions, including anniversary and reprinted editions, but 5th ed. editing is poorly organized, cute when it should be clear and only consistent in how sloppy it is. I LOVE this game, but if there were a "Shadowfinder" spinoff that just simplified the matrix, limited magic a little and made some minor tweaks to combat - I'd totally buy it.

[garner_adam]

So you should have an expectation of success any time you start an extended test?

This is my experience with most extended tests in Shadowrun 4. Unless the time interval is crucial it's pretty much an auto pass. It definitely didn't feel right to me. That being said however it did improve my skills as a game master because it helped me re-evaluate some things. Do they really need to test here? If the test fails will it be interesting? Just why are all these extended tests happening when time is not really a factor?

The big change for me being that I started writing more runs with time crunches in them. This definitely increased tension. Had the side benefit of games not turning in to shopping sprees too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

That being said I should also state that my group did not stick with Shadowrun 4 for more than about five months.

[Redjack]

There are pieces I definitely like/dislike from both. I will ignore comments about quality control (or lack there of) and play testing (or lack there of).

SR4A Pros:
- Build Point Character Generation
- Breadth of Source Books
- Technomancers are better than hackers in the virtual, but not the physical (at least not with a bunch of submersions)

SR4A Cons
- Stun spells are a game balance issue
- Social characters can definitely become a game balance issue

SR5 Pros
- Level 12 skills/limits
- Realignment of Active Skill (acting group, infiltration + shadowing = sneaking, etc)
- New social skills/group & limits make a face better balanced
- Armor & Damage adjustments
- Background count mechanic is much better
- Contact connection ratings 1-12, allowing more diversity
- Noise mechanic

SR5 Cons
- Price of decks
- According to fluff all decks are hacked together, but no rules to do so
- Ownership is a horrid mechanic
- Rigging has returned to SR3- mentality

Things the jury is still out on:
- Overall matrix rules for SR5. I liked SR4 and it worked very well for my group. There are definitely bad aspects to SR5 matrix, but also some good aspects.

[Fatum]

Problem: terrible system.
Solution: automate it so you don't have to see how terrible it is?

if you consider the need to roll a bunch of dice to be "terrible". Apparently, judging by the number of people around here, a few gamers don't.
And yeah, if you find something tedious, you automate it. That's how we have been doing it for the last, what, half a thousand years?

So you should have an expectation of success any time you start an extended test?

Yes. When you start a project in your area of expertise, and you have time aplenty, you usually expect to succeed.

[Umidori]

And yeah, if you find something tedious, you automate it. That's how we have been doing it for the last, what, half a thousand years?

And further back we did essentially the same thing by making other people do it for us! *polishes his whip*

~Umi

[Epicedion]

if you consider the need to roll a bunch of dice to be "terrible".

It's not the need to roll a bunch of dice, it's the need to roll a bunch of dice ten times in a row to do one thing.

And yeah, if you find something tedious, you automate it. That's how we have been doing it for the last, what, half a thousand years?

Or you build a less tedious system. It's a game, not an assembly line.

[Misdemeanor]

I am playing in an SR5 game now; however, if I were to take up the mantel of GM I also would revert back to SR4A. I have never been a fan of the priority system, and, I find that with this system there is a lot more edge and the basic rules have it refreshing after 8 hours of rest.

[Fatum]

And further back we did essentially the same thing by making other people do it for us! *polishes his whip*

Okay, you can add "make your most burly Germanic slave roll the dice for you" to the recipes already provided.

Or you build a less tedious system. It's a game, not an assembly line.

Sure, go head. I wish you best of luck in this endeavour.

[Umidori]

Or if you want, I can tell Gerhardt to make a less tedious system for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

~Umi

[BouncingCactus]

Yeah, I considered writing a DND/PathfindeR style guide to the sam or mage (with blue/red/orange colors *cough*) myself some time ago. For the German boards I wrote a beginner guide, but yeah, it doesn´t reach everyone of course.

SYL

Coming from someone who has spent at least the last 8 years learning CharOp in D&D 3.5, the last (however long it's been out) years learning D&D 4th and something close to two-ish years trying to learn Shadowrun 4th ed., things like that would be immensely helpful for newcomers like myself.

Being so used to my nerd-forums having a handbook section, it was more than a little daunting to try and figure stuff out here. I'd try my hand at it, if it weren't for the fact that I know far, far too little to say anything about it.

If I could, it'd be something like "Hacking and You - A Decker's Guide", detailing what attributes and skills you need to invest in, perhaps some pointers to useful skill specializations. Recommended gear; bio-/cyberware; other useful equipment and of course the major one; What you need to know about Comlinks (the stats, short description what the programs do etc), stuff like that.
Or maybe something like "Pornomancer? - Helpful hints on making a Face".


Ok, so that was way of topic. Ooops.