cross bows are screwy Options

[xizor]

Ok I have noticed that there is a big difference between a long bow and a crossbow in shadow run

The difference is:
Crossbows have a set strength minimum and damage. There does not seem to be any way to change it.

They can never ever have a higher strength minimum or better damage code. Except by using special bolts.

Why is that?
By the ranges there should be some way to get a better crossbow. However by the five pound cannon there is not.

[KillaJ]

I would imagine the same techniques used in the construction of the Ranger-X bow could also be applied to a crossbow. I can't think of many applications for it that another device wouldn't be better suited for, but if all you are looking for is some logical way to improve crossbows in your game that might be something to look into.

[I Eat Time]

I'm not 100% clear on how crossbows work differently in real life than normal bows, and I imagine FASA folks didn't either, so that's why they came up with this rule. It makes sense to me, with mediocre knowledge.

So a bow fires with as much power as you put into it, and you have to HOLD the bolt while you're aiming at whatever power you want, or close to it. Farther you pull it back, harder it's gonna hit.

Crossbows are pulled back to notches, aimed, and fired like a gun. The notches or whatever controls the power, not how hard you pulled it. So it's like a delay-action bow, the benefit being you don't have to have a strength minimum to fire it, the downside being that the power's not nearly so 'customizable'.

[Austere Emancipa...]

A bow has an absolute power limit just like a crossbow has. If you pull it back further you'll just strain yourself without putting any more power to it, or break the bow. You can't achieve that anyway unless you have arms much longer than an average human.

When there are Str Min 20 Longbows, there should also be ballistae. Or, actually, there shouldn't be any Str Min 20 Longbows, but there should still be ballistae.

[otomik]

*in south park martin jefferson voice* "thats ignorant, they're ignorant."

yes indeed FASA is ignorant on this.
the stopping power caused by bows and crossbows isn't comparable to that caused by bullets, a good hit with a arrow won't drop a deer the same way a bullet does. in many cases a deer will just stand there for a second trying to figure out what happened while a arrow is sticking in them, then start to run off and you just gotta follow the blood trail and hope you got a good enough hit so that they pass out from blood loss soon. (ohio law doesn't allow you to carry a pistol to finish them off quickly, but it's a popular way to go)

crossbows are more powerful than bows generally but really you just gotta check things out for yourself, i think the most powerful are composite crossbows some with draw weights of 300 pounds.

but in the end crossbows don't really do anything bows can't do, they're just easier to fire accurately and more powerful in a smaller package (this fact is balanced by the quicker firing of bows). remember that many crossbows have pulleys to crank back the drawstring so you're not as limited by your own muscle strength. there's no reason not to go high-tech though because arrows are like bullets against magical foes.

[Diesel]

How would arrows effect a magical (I'm guessing you mean spirit / materialized whatever) target more effectively than bullets? They're both more seperated in terms of personal beatdown by the launcher. Bow to arrow, crossbow to bolt, pistol and rifle to bullet, shotgun to slug - to target. All that as opposed to fist - to face. If there's some rule, that'd be awesome, I'm just curious.

[Lantzer]

Um, I think the two of you agree. He just said that there was not any real difference between arrows and bullets, as far as spirits and the like are concerned.

And that's true. The primary reasons one of my characters would carry a bow would be style, followed by stealth of use.

Of course, they're not as concealable as pistols.... which is why I like to go with tasers for quiet, semi-public jobs.

[Lilt]

Heh. It depends on what you've stuck on the pistol. An Ares Predator III with a silencer slapped on is as concealable as a Str Min 20 Ranger-X bow... :eek:

[Raptor1033]

actually that brings up an interesting point. if you get ahold of some wooden arrows without metal heads, just sharpened tips, would that count as elemental wood and a spirits immunity to normal weapons not work against it? of course power would have to be lowered a little, maybe -2 or -3 because of the less effective point. anyone else think of this for a spirit killer?

[shadd4d]

I don't see how this counts as elemental wood. It's just wood, which isn't a defined element in the game (leave Earthdawn at the door momentarily).

It's still a normal weapon; it hasn't changed and isn't being driven by the force of a person. OTOH, anchor a spell to the tip and then you've got something, like slay spirit or something of that nature.

Don

[Thistledown]

Other reasons to use crossbows in some cases. If you're going some place with a high likelyhood of cooking off your ammo, you don't have to worry. One of my characters has massive electricity problems, so he has to use one. Another uses emps and other gear a lot, so he choses to play it safe and go with a nice stable bolt instead of potentially hazardous bullets.

Then of course, there's the cake ammo spell (saw it in some suplement), and all the wonderful secondary effects from elemental manipulations. (Fireball may burn your bolts, depending on material, but it isn't going to make them explode.)

And of course, another big plus for crossbows is that the ammunition is re-useable. Just take it out of the body when you're done, and fire again.

[Fahr]

as someone who shoots a Compound bow, I thought I would throw out some defenitions and explaations that might make this a little clearer.

first, a bows power comes from the amount of force imparted to the arrow working through a sharpened surface (broadhead) bow strength is measured in pounds of draw, basically how many pound would you have to hang on the string if you were shooting the ceiling to pull the bo back. for long bows and recurves, these also are accompanied by a draw length, as the length of draw varies by shooter and the force varies as well. as a rule of thumbe I learned in archery class, every 1" or draw adds about 2# to a bow in the 30-50# range

Long Bow == straight stick of rather long length (usually aroun 4-5') linear poundage progression, ie you pull it back 26" it has 40#, 28" is 44# 30" is 48#
these are big and harder to aim than more modern designs, but can be made relatively easy our of the right kinds of wood.

Recurve Bow == bow which curves away from the shooter so the limbs look a little like a flattened S bad ascii art to follow

[mfb]

in answer to the question about wood vs spirts, the answer is yes if you consider wu-jen elements to be effective against spirits the same way that the classic elements are. however, if you're allowing wu-jen, then there's no point in removing the metal tip, as metal is one of the five wu-jen elements.

[Raptor1033]

does it have to be a pure metal or can an alloy count to be elemental?

[broho_pcp]

well, la-de-frikin' da, I might as well just use bullets, cause they are METAL. hmmm... I do not think wood or metal would count as a "elemental effect." But wood will be good against vampires, so it can be useful. (note: on re-reading of post I noticed I was being insulting, I am sorry and do not mean it :))

[Herald of Verjig...]

If you accept as an elemental weapon everything listed on the elemental effects (MitS spell design guide), lead is not valid but iron is.
That's everyone's cue to start making iron bullet house rules.

[Austere Emancipa...]

-1 Power, x0.75 Ranges, 2x Price (to represent rarity more than actual cost of manufacturing), +2/48hrs Avail, only as a "modification" of Regular Ammo.

How's that?

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: May 4 2004, 03:30 AM

[Thistledown]

I know nothing about actually making bullets. Why would an iron bullet have less power, etc, than lead? Isn't lead heavyer and softer?

[Austere Emancipa...]

That's pretty much it. Iron is lighter, and in general making a bullet lighter is counterproductive to doing more damage with it. It certainly reduces ranges -- the bullet is still as large, ie as much friction, but decelerates a lot faster, thus shorter range.

Iron is also less likely to deform/fragment than anything that would count as Regular Ammo, which means an iron bullet would cause less tissue damage. Combined with lower mass and lower energy (right at the muzzle it'd probably have as much energy as normal bullets, but beyond that the energy would go away faster), you get less damage. And it still won't penetrate very well, because iron will flatten/fragment if it hits something very hard, such as body armor.

You could make a fragmenting iron bullet, which should use something like the Flechette rules, except double Ballistic armor. -1 Power might still be called for. Or you could concentrate on the shorter range and forget about the Power, but I figured you'd want some extra penalties for firing iron bullets because of the bonuses you'd be getting (Elemental Iron attack).

[Arethusa]

Is .75 enough? We are talking about a bullet with 1/4th the weight of a normal lead round. Personally, I'd give it -2 power and 30% reduction in range. I wouldn't allow frangible, either.

Also, hell, while we're at it, any suggestions for silver? I'm thinking -1 power, 20% reduction in range, +3/+1 week availability and x4 price (materials and market rarity).

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Arethusa]

Well, that'll teach me to pay attention when I'm staring at a periodic table at 12 in the morning. Accidentally looked at nuclear mass instead of density and somehow didn't realize that a density of 200g/cm^3 might be a bit strange. Guess I'll never live that down.

In any case, looking at the right numbers, I agree. No change for silver and -1 for iron is about right. Personally, though, I'd stick with a 20% reduction in range. Easier to calculate on the fly, and possibly more realistic. Not a big deal, in any case.

One addendum, though: I think x6 or x8 for silver rounds might be better, but I don't know canon's costs for a simple Heavy Pistol round. I'm just thinking that a silver pistol round should weigh in at around 6-10¥ a piece.

[edit: typo]

This post has been edited by Arethusa: May 4 2004, 07:16 PM

[Kagetenshi]

Canon cost for ammo, 10 rounds: ¥20. Hence, ¥2 per bullet.

~J

[Arethusa]

Well, that's silly. In that case, x4 or x5 would do just fine.

[Austere Emancipa...]

It's much better than the canon weight of ammo, though, which is the equivalent of a medium-light 12G shotgun round.