[X] My Assistant

[ProfGast]

For you more experienced players out there, when creating characters whose primary jobs are to handle noncombat situations (Infiltrators, Faces, Hackers, etc. etc.), how much combat ability do you consider sufficient in order to keep them alive and functioning when situations go pear-shaped? What sort of dice pools do you usually plan into a character who is only there for extra fire support when the bullets start flying? Any particularly favored Combat Skills to use for this sort of thing?

I've read a good sweet spot for IPs and reaction enhancers is +1 but are there any other good guidelines like that?

[Tanegar]

It really depends on the team makeup and the sort of game you're playing. If your GM tends toward the combat-heavy game, then clearly something more than Pistols 3 and a Hammerli 620 is indicated. If he's happy to let you circumvent most fights, you might be good to go with a high Dodge skill.

[garner_adam]

Assuming you're playing a character like the face and the game does have a decent amount of combat you'll probably at least want to break even with regular joes with gear.

So 3 attribute + 3 skill + tool (smartlink) = 6-8 is the offensive dice pool of regular joes.
Their defense test is usually a also 6-8.
Their bullet soaking tests are usually 12+ (3 for body and 9 and up for decent body armor) EDIT: Just saw that this is a SR4 post- in that case soaking tests are probably 9+

Because all these tests are opposed rolls it makes a big difference to know your game master. Some game masters have lots of regular joe-security like what I just outlined above. I've played with plenty who mostly use commandos for security (cause seriously regular joes don't stand much chance against cyborgs).

Another thing you can do is grab a cheap machine pistol or submachine gun with full auto and mostly support using the suppressive fire rules. In this case look for a weapon with a high ammo count.

[Koekepan]

Another tactic is to choose one thing, and be decently useful at that.

For example, let's say you're making a Face character. He's not supposed to be a combat monster, but sometimes negotiations get ugly, so as a practical matter he packs a couple of Big Fragging Revolvers to at least buy him time to reach his transport. In that case, get him some pistols, maybe with a sixgun specialisation, and some classy holsters.

Another example might be a very physically delicate elf hacking type, who never intends to be anywhere near the fight, but doesn't mind performing a little overwatch for his buddies when things go south. Fair enough, get him a good hunting rifle, an awesome scope, a tripod and a shooting mat. Add some long arm skills, and you have a halfway decent backup sniper even if he just curls into a ball and cries when faced with a threat close by.

[Elfenlied]

For Mundanes: 10+ DP (including all mods, such as smartlink and spec) with a gun based attack. The baseline DP is usually Agi 5 + Skill 1 + Spec 2 + Smartlink 2.
In normal/Black Trenchcoat games (or games where reality ensues) the skill taken is pistols, with the following guns: Morrisey Elan w/ plastic ammo (entire gun and ammo bypass MAD scanner) for social/stealth situations, a separate ceramic silencer for the aforementioned pistol, a Colt Government with external smartlink and silencer for combat/stealth situations and either a Ruger Thunderbolt or Ruger Super Warhawk (with SA firing selection mod) for when the shit hits the fan.
For action-oriented/Pink Mohawk games (or games where gun control does not exist and law enforcement consists mostly of overweight, unskilled meatbag mooks), the skill taken is automatics, with the following guns: B&P MP9/FN5-7 with suppressor for concealed carry, Ingram Smartgun X for a compact, out-of-the-box usable gun and an Ares HVBR with FA mod and tricked out recoil comp for open combat.

For Technos: Use drones. Ford LEBD with Supersquirts/Parashield Dart rifles and Narcoject with take down most opposition, and Pepperpunch grenades are cheap (25$ a pop) and awesome.

For Mages: You've got spirits and spells. Do I need to spell it out for you?

[Sendaz]

For Mages: You've got spirits and spells. Do I need to spell it out for you?

No pun intended of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[binarywraith]

As a verision-agnostic answer, go look at the NPCs. Your average runner who isn't a primary combatant should at least have one skill (usually pistols) be on par with, say, low-level corpsec or street gangers.

[Elfenlied]

As a verision-agnostic answer, go look at the NPCs. Your average runner who isn't a primary combatant should at least have one skill (usually pistols) be on par with, say, low-level corpsec or street gangers.

I think the DP matters more than the skill alone, though. Comparing DPs might be the way to go.

[Glyph]

I disagree with the notion that a support character who does expect to get into combat occasionally should have parity with the average security guard. A 50% chance of success means you die half the time. I would recommend a dice pool of 12-14, not quite sammie or combat mage level, but enough to contribute to a firefight. Typically, pistols with a specialization in semi-automatics, with a good heavy pistol, is the right mix between concealability and stopping power.

Some characters might have more or less than this. A mage will primarily rely on spells (have at least one good direct combat spell even if you are a healer) and spirits. Technomancers might not even be equal to a security guard, but should generally seek cover when a fight starts. Faces and deckers can have more, and covert ops specialists should have more (since they ned to be able to take the occasional guard out quickly and silently).

[binarywraith]

I think 4e's absurd divepools have warped your perception of 'non combat' character. Hell, the statblock for Knight Errant beat cops (a very common shadowrunner enemy) are running Ag 4 Pistols 4 for a DP of 8.

The DP 12-14 you're calling for is higher than the stats for elite security grunts, on par with what they stat out as baseline Red Samurai. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Elfenlied]

Because NPCs are run straight out of the book, and never ever have a tactical advantage (hint: they usually do as the defenders) and never purchase specializations.

[KCKitsune]

I think that ALL characters should have some skill with pistols. Your combat monsters should be skilled in every firearm type, but non-combat types should be also proficient in automatics. That covers SMGs, machine pistols, and assault rifles. That should give you enough diversity that you can handle almost any situation.

[binarywraith]

Because NPCs are run straight out of the book, and never ever have a tactical advantage (hint: they usually do as the defenders) and never purchase specializations.

Have you read 5e? Seriously, the notes recommend intentionally not having NPCs make dodge rolls and letting them be one-shot kills if they're not plot important. Page 382 or so.

[Glyph]

Note the SR4 tag. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think most support characters should have decent combat skills, just like I think most combat characters should be good in a few areas outside of combat. Be very good at your specialty, but don't be so focused on it that you are useless outside of a narrow role.

The NPCs in the base book don't have specializations, smartlinks, etc. The NPCs in published adventures tend to be more robust. Someone with Agility: 3, pistols: 3, a specialization, and a smartlink rolls 10 dice, and it is absurdly easy to improve this with some relatively inexpensive augmentations.

Dice pools seem high in SR4 because too many people consider them to be the default amount of dice you roll, rather than the amount of dice you roll in optimum conditions. Someone with 12 dice rolls a lot less when he is crouched behind partial cover, he is lightly wounded, it is dark, it is raining, and his target is moving.

[Snow_Fox]

it's not just an sr4 question, but overall play. it really depends on your character. you could have an absolute combat monster, personally I like to have at least one flashy combat spell like flamethrower that has a physical component and if I can afford it, one mental like mana bolt or stun bolt. but it really depends on your use of spells. to look at Harry Dresden-the current archmage of urban fantasy he has 'force' and flame spells and most of his other spells are not combat but turn him lose and he can really make a mess of things.

I mean setting off fire alarms screwing up computers-elevators and the like, a wind storm ripping up small items from desks and whirling them about, spells to obscure sight at the top of stairs all are going to cause no end of trouble.

[ProfGast]

Alright, so what I'm getting so far is that for optimum effectiveness people are suggesting dice pools of anywhere of 8-14 or so for offensive dice pools, depending on your GM or level of general combat. How about standard defensive?

Also for weapon choice, what do you considered a "healthy base" for Damage Value? If taking firearms as an example, =< 4 is "light", 5-7 is "moderate" and 8+ is "heavy."

[Elfenlied]

Standard defensive for non-combatants: avoid combat, or strike from a position where retaliation is unlikely. Failing that, for mundanes a 6+ on physical dodge (without fulldodge) should be the bare minimum. Anything below that is just asking for it. Willpower and Body 3+ is also a minimum (take the attribute at odd values). Basic Armor values, depending on splatbooks, should be anywhere from 6-9, depending on the availability of Softweave and Formfitting Body armor. A DP of 10+ for visual/auditory perception is also highly desirable, since you don't get to dodge what you can't see.

For firearms:
4 or below means it's a last ditch defense. Even with two hits, you are unlikely to down most people. The exception are burst/FA automatic pistols, which can pack quite the punch.
5-6 is concealable combat strength. A lot of the weapons in this category have burst/full auto available, making them a lethal package.
7+ is primary combat weapon category. Most rifles and heavier stuff falls here.

Damage value alone isn't that accurate though, since a LMG is definitely not a concealable weapon but still only has a DV of 6. I tend to group them by this:
"Last Ditch": Can be concealed when wearing a revealing evening dress or swimwear. Usually not very strong, so non-standard ammo (poison injection needles, taser darts) to even the odds.
"Light": Anything that can be concealed under normal clothing. Most pistols fit here.
"Medium": Anything that can be concealed under a coat. Some compact automatics and sawn off shotguns fit here.
"Large": Weapons that can only be concealed conspicuously, such as golf bags or guitar cases.
"Dakka": Concealable takes a back seat to firepower.

[Snow_Fox]

I'm less concerned with dice pools than what you do with them. for weapons you want to have at least an smg, not for hitting power but because anyone using just a hand gun will draw fire on them, to the tune of 'geek the mage'

[KarmaInferno]

YOU NEEDS MOAR DAKKA. YOU CAN'TS EVER 'AV ENUFF DAKKA. DAT'S WHAT'S CALLED FAKT. SO ENUFF DAKKA IS ALWAYS MORE DAN WHAT YOU GROTZ 'AV.



-k

[Backgammon]

Shouldn't the only viable answer be "talk to your GM"?

[Draco18s]

I would recommend a dice pool of 12-14

14 was the dice pool on my last combat character!

[Glyph]

14 was the dice pool on my last combat character!

I bet he had a lot of other skills/specialties, though. The line can blur a bit between a support character who can fight, and a combat character who can do other stuff. And sometimes the other stuff can make a big difference. I remember a sniper character who threw 20 or so dice or so getting picked apart by the other posters - how the character couldn't climb the wall, pick a lock, talk or sneak past anyone, or basically do anything but shoot people after being levitated to the roof by the mage. If I had to choose between hiring that guy, and a guy with 14 dice who could also sneak, fast-talk, drive, and pick a lock, then the second one would be my choice.

[Draco18s]

I bet he had a lot of other skills/specialties, though.

No, not really. Drake.

Never even shifted to drakeform.

I still took less damage than most of the other players. I had fewer kills and did less damage, but I also didn't expend resources being healed.
(That's the same game that the "melee vampire" "charged" the shotgun weilding thug and almost died without doing any damage to anyone)

[Elfenlied]

14 was the dice pool on my last combat character!

16 was the DP on my last combat character. He also had a 14 non-emotionsoft/non-Glamour DP on social rolls and a 12 DP on sneak, perception, disguise and most matrix related stuff. I figured I needed that for a convincing former intelligence agent.

[Umidori]

For action-oriented/Pink Mohawk games (or games where gun control does not exist and law enforcement consists mostly of overweight, unskilled meatbag mooks), the skill taken is automatics, with the following guns: B&P MP9/FN5-7 with suppressor for concealed carry, Ingram Smartgun X for a compact, out-of-the-box usable gun and an Ares HVBR with FA mod and tricked out recoil comp for open combat.

I always kind of viewed the general attitude toward weapons in SR as being that open carry is essentially the norm in many places, at least on the streets.

Why? Because weapons are cheap and highly available. (At least before 5E, that is.)

An Ares Predator IV, the legendary, most trusted handgun among Shadowrunners in 2072, runs for a mere 350 nuyen. If you rent an apartment, you pay 2000 a month in lifestyle costs. Any schmoe can put away a little bit of their paycheck for a few months to buy one, and I always saw it as being expected that most people would buy one, or if not a Predator, than any of the cheaper guns floating around. The Ruger Super Warhawk and the Remmington Roomsweeper are both 250. If you're on a budget, the no-frills Colt America L36 is 150.

Of those guns, the Roomsweeper is the highest availability at 6R, but it's a shotty, so that makes some sense. The others are all 4R or 3R. For comparison, if you want to learn a language in your free time, Linguasofts come at an availability of 2. If you want to go camping somewhere you won't have commlink connectivity, a GPS has an availability of 3. And if you want to get the world's most common piece of cyberware, a pair of cybereyes, those clock in at availability 4.

"But guns are Restricted! That means you need a license to have one!" Naturally. But we're talking a Corporate world motivated by profits, and there's no profit in denying guns to Average Joe.

Think about it. More people buying guns means more money in your pocket. They need licenses? You offer training courses, for a modest price. Heck - monetize the registration program itself with license fees, renewal fees, et cetera! Then, of course, they'll need a constant stream of ammunition since you gave them that trial membership to the local chain of corporate gun ranges, and naturally they'll be auto subscribed to your monthly catalogue offering all sorts of new goodies, gizmos, upgrades, and accessories. There's a million and one ways to commoditize gun ownership, and if you don't, one of your competitors sure will!

"But then if everyone has guns, what's to stop the unwashed masses from staging a Revolution?" All the usual suspects.

First, naturally, is bread and circuses. Keep them fed and amused, keep them distracted, keep them chasing their own tails, and profit all the while.

Second, the corps control all the really big guns - even if they fail to distract the masses with mass media and bullshit, they can always violently put down anything that threatens to spill out of control. Race riots? Send in the Firewatch Teams to clean up and flood the media with news of a "terrorist attack" or a "bug infestation" or any number of other plausible and scary potential threats to cow the populace with. Even if they smell a rat, are they really gonna stand up to milspec armored, drone-supported, professional murderers who have their corporate pensions on the line?

Third, the corps sell themselves as the glue holding society together in a crazy world. Things are nuts out there - dragons, magic, freaks, mutants, Infected, paracritters, spirits, radicals and terrorists of all kinds... things that Average Joe doesn't understand or even want to, and sure as shit can't handle on his own. Are people really stupid enough to go against the corporations when they're ostensibly the only ones holding back the tides of chaos? I think not!

Fourth, although the masses ostensibly trust their would-be corporate protectors, it doesn't hurt anything to let them feel like they control their own destinies a bit too, even if they don't actually. Putting guns in the hands of Average Joe makes him feel like he can protect himself against at least some of the dangers that lurk out there, and the odds are actually overwhelmingly high he'll never actually have to use the damn thing.

Fifth, an armed society is a polite society. History is full of examples of civilizations wherein everyday open carry of weaponry was normal, accepted, and essentially utterly uninteresting to the average person. Like guns in the Wild West, or swords during the Rennaisance, and pretty much whatever people could get their hands on for all the rest of human history since the first of us picked up a great big stick and swung it at their neighbor's noggin.

Sure, there's an argument to be made for high security areas and upper class neighborhoods asking you to check your weapons, but for your everyday passerby on the street in Seattle? Not even the Barrens, just Seattle proper? Everyone's gonna have a pistol on their hip or a shotgun slung over their shoulder. They'll need to be able to show an ID and their license for it if stopped by the cops, and if they stand waving it around or shooting they're gonna be in a heap of trouble, but just openly carrying? I doubt anyone would bat an eye outside of gun-free zones.

Handguns are everywhere. They're cheap and easy to get, they make people feel safer, they fill a consumer demand, and people are gonna get their hands on them one way or another. You can restrict them all you like, but enforcement only goes so far before it fails, and you're pretty much throwing away potential profits. Far better to have the bare minimum of regulation to extract the most lucrative amount of gain out of a market that's going to exist one way or another.

Now, assault weapons on the other hand... ;P

~Umi