[X] My Assistant

[RHat]

But Why? Do we really need another "Special Snowflake" set of powers that get boosted because they want people to take them?

.,. Negatives balanced out by positives (and vice versa) isn't "Special Snowflake", it's how balance fragging works.

[Umidori]

I simply refuse to believe a bonus which a mage would have to pay half a million nuyen and dozens of runs worth of karma to gain is intended, especially given that the rules make absolutely no mention of it.

I also dispute the alleged "balance" of such an absurd interpretation.

That said, I suppose it's not really worth discussing until there are actually proper, official rules written. If you want to run your table off of a rules interpretation that I view as insane, hey, I can't stop ya. I'll stick with what I see as a reasonable, conservative interpretation for my table, and likewise you can't stop me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[RHat]

Keep in mind it's also notably more limited than being able to sustain a whole bunch of spells for free. I get how you'd think it would be insane in the outset looking just at that one facet, but I don't think you're looking at the full picture.

[Umidori]

Aside from the time limit and extra drain inherent to alchemy, how is it any different than being able to sustain a whole bunch of spells (actually an unlimited number of spells of unlimited force) for free?

~Umi

[Fatum]

Let's test your assumptions, Umidori, by taking an extreme case.
Is there anything in the rules that says alchemical preparations become less potent when the caster dies before they're put to use, or that the preparations with sustained spells won't work? Not to my knowledge.
QED, alchemical preparations are thus independent from the caster (except in the specifically described case).
You can call the rules absurd, but in the land of wireless telescopic batons, absurd is the new logic.

[Smash]

Let's test your assumptions, Umidori, by taking an extreme case.
Is there anything in the rules that says alchemical preparations become less potent when the caster dies before they're put to use, or that the preparations with sustained spells won't work? Not to my knowledge.
QED, alchemical preparations are thus independent from the caster (except in the specifically described case).
You can call the rules absurd, but in the land of wireless telescopic batons, absurd is the new logic.

Well to be fair, his position is based on the assumption that where nothing is mentioned then alchemy functions exactly like spellcasting and therefore if you are sustaining a spell and you die then the spell would drop off the target.

[Fatum]

Wait, is having an S spell in a concoction supposed to give you a -2 penalty at all times by that logic? Even before it is activated?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

.,. Negatives balanced out by positives (and vice versa) isn't "Special Snowflake", it's how balance fragging works.

And again I disagree with you. The positives are almost nonexistent compared to the negatives, and the requirement to purchase spells again so you can use alchemy with them is beyond stupidity.

[Mikado]

And again I disagree with you. The positives are almost nonexistent compared to the negatives, and the requirement to purchase spells again so you can use alchemy with them is beyond stupidity.

Yea, I am going to side with RHat, kind of... I think to much was attached to being a mage to begin with. For a 15 point quality you got access to spell casting, ritual spell casting (yes, not used much but it is still there) summoning, astral sight and astral perception and a magic attribute of 1. That is a stupid amount of stuff for one quality. The only thing I like about 5th is that they separated out better (in my opinion) what you received for buying the mage quality. I do not think they went far enough in separating them but they decided to change the way spells worked as another area of compensation. Which I did not agree with since they changed the base mechanics of the game with it. There where other ways to counteract the direct-combat spell abuse that did not involve removing base force damage. Adding essence loss to resistances comes to mind since it is already used for healing. I still don't like the new alchemy or the changes to summoning (removal of watchers) but I understand what they where going towards but like wireless bonuses they failed in implementation.


EDIT: Astral Sight and Astral Perception are the same thing... I meant sight and the ability to leave your body.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yea, I am going to side with RHat, kind of... I think to much was attached to being a mage to begin with. For a 15 point quality you got access to spell casting, ritual spell casting (yes, not used much but it is still there) summoning, astral sight and astral perception and a magic attribute of 1. That is a stupid amount of stuff for one quality. The only thing I like about 5th is that they separated out better (in my opinion) what you received for buying the mage quality. I do not think they went far enough in separating them but they decided to change the way spells worked as another area of compensation. Which I did not agree with since they changed the base mechanics of the game with it. There where other ways to counteract the direct-combat spell abuse that did not involve removing base force damage. Adding essence loss to resistances comes to mind since it is already used for healing. I still don't like the new alchemy or the changes to summoning (removal of watchers) but I understand what they where going towards but like wireless bonuses they failed in implementation.

I agree... They failed miserably at implementation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[attilatheyeon]

Hmmm, based on what you guys say, alchemy will be exceptable to use for my buff spells. It'll work well with armor and combat sense, may be ok with improved invisibility and improved initiative.

[Jaid]

i find it best for short-term things, actually. well, that and indirect combat spell cheese when combined with reagents to limit your net hits and prevent the drain from becoming physical instead of stun, but that's questionable at the best of times...

anyways, for combat buffs, it works ok, but only if you have time to prepare for combat.

[attilatheyeon]

Well now i came up with bright idea of using cram as the lynchpin. Does that seem munchkin-like to you guys?

[DrZaius]

Well now i came up with bright idea of using cram as the lynchpin. Does that seem munchkin-like to you guys?

What is cram? a popper? It would depend somewhat on the physical form cram takes. Also remember that certain lynchpins are subject to the object resistance test. I imagine if it's a synthetically manufactured drug, that's about as far away as you can get from something "natural".

-DrZ

[attilatheyeon]

It can be taken orally or as an inhalent, and it probably has some object resistance, but i don't think it would be as bad as a cyberdeck. But it is something to think about, thanks dr z.

[DrZaius]

It can be taken orally or as an inhalent, and it probably has some object resistance, but i don't think it would be as bad as a cyberdeck. But it is something to think about, thanks dr z.

I bet you could make a truckload using Deepweed as a lynchpin for Clairaudience.

-DrZ

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I bet you could make a truckload using Deepweed as a lynchpin for Clairaudience.

-DrZ

Not really... Durations on Alchemy are not good enough.

[DrZaius]

Not really... Durations on Alchemy are not good enough.

Sure, but those 5 minutes are like, an experience, Man.

-DrZ

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sure, but those 5 minutes are like, an experience, Man.

-DrZ

I was more referring to their duration before they completely degrade...

[DrZaius]

I was more referring to their duration before they completely degrade...

Hmm, that's true. I wonder what the turnaround time is on drugs? If they were particularly potent / desired, I could see a market developing for something that degrades within a day. The alchemical preparation is just an added "feature" at the end of the process; the rest of the drug could be developed however it is currently.

-DrZ

[kirtimlak]

My party used to make "Man-Slaughter" arrows for the adept-archer putting contact Death Touch on his unique titanium arrows and "Droid-Maiming" arrows putting contact Shatter.

Now they have an idea of making command Improved Reflexes amulets and choose nicknames of "Geronimo", "Leroy" and "Forest" for main fighters, so that crying out "Leroooooy!" or "Run, Forest, Run!!!" will activate the spell)))

I already hate them!

[attilatheyeon]

Can you use verbal commands to activate a preparation? Cuz that will totally change my way of thinking on these! As it is, i thought i read somewhere that alchemical preparations last hours not minutes.

[DrZaius]

Can you use verbal commands to activate a preparation? Cuz that will totally change my way of thinking on these! As it is, i thought i read somewhere that alchemical preparations last hours not minutes.

Unless the grammar police on DS correct me, I took "Command" to include verbal commands, yes. I like "hammer time" for increased reflexes.

Alchemical preparations do last for hours. Once they are activated, they sustain themselves for (potency) minutes. That's probably where the disconnect is.

-DrZ

[attilatheyeon]

Ya ok. I was reading the wrong part. Yup command is a viable option. Also, after rerereading the alchemy section, i understand what the author was trying to say about preparation shelf life. The wording is kinda redundant which gave me the wrong impression. So now i have to rethink preparations cuz they do indeed only last for minutes once activated. Honestly i think catalyst would be better served hiring technical writers who know how to write with precision. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)