Autofire in 5th E, confuses me like hekk Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[kirtimlak]

Hi there.
Playing SR from 4th - i'm a bit slowpock. But 5th is entirely a mess for me.
Please help me out in getting the autofire rules in the 5th.
If i understand it right...

1. I (character) can use Autofire as many times in one round, as many Action Phases i have.

2. I (character) have Str 4, Ag 5, Automatics 5, hold a FN P93 Praetor and use a Multiple Attack Free Action (p.196) to fire it in
SA Burst mode: 3 bullets in each of the TWO Action Phases i have.

I have recoil compensation of Str/2+1+1=4. I have recoil penalty of -3.

So on the first Action Phase i have 5+5=10 dice and split it in 3 rolls of, let's say, 3 dice, 3 dice and 4 dice to make three attacks.

And the opponent with 7 dice for his defence roll has -2 to the roll due to being a target of the AF Burst and rolls 5 dice each time, penalised by -1 for every successfully evaded attack.

The second Action Phase i have more -3 Recoil and just 2 Recoil Compensation, which makes my dice pool penalised by -1.
I divide the remaining 9 dice in three shots: 3, 3 and 3.
And my enemy has -2 to his defence again and rolls 5 dice each time, penalised by -1 for every successfully evaded attack.

Do i get it right?

Thx!

[Smash]

Hi there.
Playing SR from 4th - i'm a bit slowpock. But 5th is entirely a mess for me.
Please help me out in getting the autofire rules in the 5th.
If i understand it right...

1. I (character) can use Autofire as many times in one round, as many Action Phases i have.

2. I (character) have Str 4, Ag 5, Automatics 5, hold a FN P93 Praetor and use a Multiple Attack Free Action (p.196) to fire it in
SA Burst mode: 3 bullets in each of the TWO Action Phases i have.

I have recoil compensation of Str/2+1+1=4. I have recoil penalty of -3.

So on the first Action Phase i have 5+5=10 dice and split it in 3 rolls of, let's say, 3 dice, 3 dice and 4 dice to make three attacks.

And the opponent with 7 dice for his defence roll has -2 to the roll due to being a target of the AF Burst and rolls 5 dice each time, penalised by -1 for every successfully evaded attack.

The second Action Phase i have more -3 Recoil and just 2 Recoil Compensation, which makes my dice pool penalised by -1.
I divide the remaining 9 dice in three shots: 3, 3 and 3.
And my enemy has -2 to his defence again and rolls 5 dice each time, penalised by -1 for every successfully evaded attack.

Do i get it right?

Thx!

Nope, you can't multi-attack with a single firearm. You can attack twice if dual wielding with that action.

[kirtimlak]

Nope, you can't multi-attack with a single firearm. You can attack twice if dual wielding with that action.

Then how for god's sake Auto-fire actions work???

Don't get what that should mean:
"...Semi-Automatic weap-
ons can fre a burst of three rounds with a Complex Ac-
tion. With more shots going downrange they increase
the chance that a bullet will hit. Semi-Automatic bursts
can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action
to fre at multiple targets with the same burst." © Core, p.179

[forgarn]

Then how for god's sake Auto-fire actions work???

Don't get what that should mean:
"...Semi-Automatic weap-
ons can fre a burst of three rounds with a Complex Ac-
tion. With more shots going downrange they increase
the chance that a bullet will hit. Semi-Automatic bursts
can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action
to fre at multiple targets with the same burst." © Core, p.179

Check page 196... you have to have 2 fire arms to use multiple attacks.

[Gamer6432]

From re-reading the rules on multiple attacks, I believe you got it right in your original post, kirtimlak.

[kirtimlak]

Check page 196... you have to have 2 fire arms to use multiple attacks.

once again: then, could you be so kind, tell me your opinion on how bursts work? One attack that gives -2/-3/-6/-10 to targets' defence? Oh, c'mon!

[kirtimlak]

From re-reading the rules on multiple attacks, I believe you got it right in your original post, kirtimlak.

Yeh, i maybe formulated it not so clear, but after a dozen or rereadings of the rules on p-s. 178, 196 and 190 (hate authors that put rules 'bout one thing in THREE different places!) that seemed to be the only option.

[Gamer6432]

Check page 196... you have to have 2 fire arms to use multiple attacks.

Pg 179 specifically says that triple tapping with a single semi-auto firearm allows the use of the Multiple Attacks free action.

Semi-Automatic Burst mode is three semi-automatic
shots taken in quick succession. Semi-Automatic weapons
can fire a burst of three rounds with a Complex Action.
With more shots going downrange they increase
the chance that a bullet will hit. Semi-Automatic bursts
can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action
to fire at multiple targets with the same burst.
See Firing Mode Table (p. 180) for attack information.

once again: then, could you be so kind, tell me your opinion on how bursts work? One attack that gives -2/-3/-6/-10 to targets' defence? Oh, c'mon!

There's a handy table on pg 180 that breaks it down. For using the triple tap option on semi-auto weapons, it would be your GM's decision to use the semi-auto (0) or burst fire (-2) defense modifier. Personally, I would use the semi-auto modifier.

[kirtimlak]

Pg 179 specifically says that triple tapping with a single semi-auto firearm allows the use of the Multiple Attacks free action.

There's a handy table on pg 180 that breaks it down. For using the triple tap option on semi-auto weapons, it would be your GM's decision to use the semi-auto (0) or burst fire (-2) defense modifier. Personally, I would use the semi-auto modifier.

Re-read Barriers section. One more "for" to my understanding.
Just otherwise damage and number of holes from bursts in a living target would not change, but Barriers (p.198) would be destroyed more easily...

[Smash]

Hi there.
Playing SR from 4th - i'm a bit slowpock. But 5th is entirely a mess for me.
Please help me out in getting the autofire rules in the 5th.
If i understand it right...

1. I (character) can use Autofire as many times in one round, as many Action Phases i have.

2. I (character) have Str 4, Ag 5, Automatics 5, hold a FN P93 Praetor and use a Multiple Attack Free Action (p.196) to fire it in
SA Burst mode: 3 bullets in each of the TWO Action Phases i have.

I have recoil compensation of Str/2+1+1=4. I have recoil penalty of -3.

So on the first Action Phase i have 5+5=10 dice and split it in 3 rolls of, let's say, 3 dice, 3 dice and 4 dice to make three attacks.

And the opponent with 7 dice for his defence roll has -2 to the roll due to being a target of the AF Burst and rolls 5 dice each time, penalised by -1 for every successfully evaded attack.

The second Action Phase i have more -3 Recoil and just 2 Recoil Compensation, which makes my dice pool penalised by -1.
I divide the remaining 9 dice in three shots: 3, 3 and 3.
And my enemy has -2 to his defence again and rolls 5 dice each time, penalised by -1 for every successfully evaded attack.

I wrote a big post and then the server timed out so here's abridged version:

1) You shouldn't be able to multi-attack with one weapon because it renders shooting with 2 weapons redundant but I digress.
2) You can't multi-attack a single target regardless.
3) Your recoil comp is str/3+1(free)+1(weapon I assume?)=3
4) If you were shooting at 3 different targets your 1st phase would be 4/3/3 against the 3 targets with their full defence because they are not penalised by the burst because each target is attacked with 1 bullet.
5) Recoil compensation is lost forever until you spend 2 consecutive simple actions not shooting.
6) So your 2nd phase would be 3/2/2 at the opponents full defence pools.
7) Your weapon explodes from all the glitches you will no doubt roll. Just shoot once at one target to give them -2 to their defence. You're happy because your gun didn't explode and you may actually hit something and your group is happy because your action phases take 30 seconds to complete instead of 2mins.

[forgarn]

Pg 179 specifically says that triple tapping with a single semi-auto firearm allows the use of the Multiple Attacks free action.

Yup, and the Multiple Attack description on pg. 196 specifically states that you can only multiattack with 2 firearms... welcome to the wonderful world of conflicting rules in SR!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There's a handy table on pg 180 that breaks it down. For using the triple tap option on semi-auto weapons, it would be your GM's decision to use the semi-auto (0) or burst fire (-2) defense modifier. Personally, I would use the semi-auto modifier.

I would personally use the semi-auto Burst (SB) rules on the table and impose a -2 to each opponent because that is the mode that you are firing in. It doesn't matter that you are spreading it across multiple targets (if in fact you can do that). It is the mode you are firing in.

Just a note that I have not started playing 5e yet, but when I do we will talk about this rule specifically. If we agree that it can be done, then I will be requiring the use of the Complex action to do it, so there will be no simple action fire SB at multiple targets and then aim for another simple... then next AP aim for a simple (resetting recoil) and then fire another simple SB at multiple targets.

[kirtimlak]

I wrote a big post and then the server timed out so here's abridged version:
...

Thank you Smash! For advice both on system and player-relations)))
Just one thing drives me crazy - concerning damage, any Burst Attack is just as a simple one-bullet attack that just is harder to dodge.
So, if i stealth to a guard and make a Full Auto right in his occiput with an Ingram Smartgun - he probably will be a little injured =))) lol

[kirtimlak]

Yup, and the Multiple Attack description on pg. 196 specifically states that you can only multiattack with 2 firearms... welcome to the wonderful world of conflicting rules in SR!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ha-ha-ha. Bitter-funny)))) U r right. So we can swing blades reeeeeealy fast, but pushing the trigger - noooooo! - not possible)) That reminds me something...

Maybe fix it with smth like DarkHeresy rules - number of successes determines number of bullets that hit the target, then roll damage (base) and soak for each bullet separately/ Prepare for grim darkness of future, heretics!)))))

[Lobo0705]

So, if i stealth to a guard and make a Full Auto right in his occiput with an Ingram Smartgun - he probably will be a little injured =))) lol

Well, if he is surprised, then he is not getting to dodge, so he only gets Body + Armor - so he probably won't be only a little injured if you are any good with your gun.

However, to your point about bursts not doing more damage:

The problem is they went from 3e - in which more bullets meant the shot was BOTH harder to dodge AND did more damage,

To 4e - where there were now wide bursts and narrow bursts. Wide bursts used the extra bullets to make it harder to avoid being hit, and narrow bursts which made the burst do more damage.

To 5e - where now everything is effectively a wide burst - meaning it only makes it harder to dodge.

[kirtimlak]

Well, if he is surprised, then he is not getting to dodge, so he only gets Body + Armor - so he probably won't be only a little injured if you are any good with your gun.

However, to your point about bursts not doing more damage:

The problem is they went from 3e - in which more bullets meant the shot was BOTH harder to dodge AND did more damage,

To 4e - where there were now wide bursts and narrow bursts. Wide bursts used the extra bullets to make it harder to avoid being hit, and narrow bursts which made the burst do more damage.

To 5e - where now everything is effectively a wide burst - meaning it only makes it harder to dodge.

Surprised or not, he either does not dodge or has -9 to dodge which is equal for an ordinary guard. 6 Ag + 6 Auto + 2 Smart - 4 Aiming Vitals - 5 not compensated recoil = 5 dice => 1-2 successes, 2+8(thanks, Lobo0705)+2 dmg = 12 dice => 3-4 successes (???IS DAMAGE ROLLED???)
resisted by 3 Body + 8 Armour = 11 dice => 3-4 successes. Just a scratch)))))

Edited: or am i dumb to the end and damage is not rolled???

Simplicity and pseudo-realism are "like two women in one kitchen" - there can be only one))))

This post has been edited by kirtimlak: Jan 6 2014, 09:38 PM

[Lobo0705]

@kirtimlak,

I think you are forgetting that the Ingram does base 8P damage.

Which means that if you only get 1 or 2 more successes than he does, he is taking 9 or 10 boxes of damage - (10 will drop most guards).

Even if he doesn't drop, he will be seriously messed up, since your modified DV will be higher than his modified armor, and so it will be physical damage.

[kirtimlak]

@kirtimlak,

I think you are forgetting that the Ingram does base 8P damage.

Which means that if you only get 1 or 2 more successes than he does, he is taking 9 or 10 boxes of damage - (10 will drop most guards).

Even if he doesn't drop, he will be seriously messed up, since your modified DV will be higher than his modified armor, and so it will be physical damage.

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait!
Am i THAT dumb? Is DAMAGE really not rolled???
So if i get 2 hits on attack roll it makes DAMAGE DONE (from Ingram) = 12P minus Body+Armor hits???

[DrZaius]

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait!
Am i THAT dumb? Is DAMAGE really not rolled???
So if i get 2 hits on attack roll it makes DAMAGE DONE (from Ingram) = 12P minus Body+Armor hits???

Guns are dangerous!

-DrZ

[Bigity]

Correct (I think), hits add to the damage code of the gun.

So 3 hits with Ingram = 11P (or 11 boxes of damage) (plus other modifiers to DV)

Each hit on the body+armor test removes a box from the total.

[Lobo0705]

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait!
Am i THAT dumb? Is DAMAGE really not rolled???
So if i get 2 hits on attack roll it makes DAMAGE DONE (from Ingram) = 12P minus Body+Armor hits???

An Ingram Smartgun is base damage 8P.

I have an Automatics skill of 6 and an Agility of 6. I roll 4 successes.

My opponent attempts to dodge, and gets 1 success.

My damage is now 8P +4 (for my successes) -1 (for his).

My modified DV is 11.

Assume he is wearing a lined coat, which has an armor rating of 9. The Ingram has no Armor Penetration. Assume normal ammo.

Your modified armor value is 9. Since your modified armor value is less than the modified DV (and the gun does physical damage normally), you are taking physical damage.

You now roll your body + modified armor and get 3 successes.

You take 11-3 or 8 points of damage.

If you had been wearing an armor jacket (armor rating of 12) then in this case your modified armor would be equal to or higher than the modified DV, and so you would have taken stun damage.

[kirtimlak]

Guns are dangerous!

-DrZ

Correct (I think), hits add to the damage code of the gun.

So 3 hits with Ingram = 11P (or 11 boxes of damage) (plus other modifiers to DV)

Each hit on the body+armor test removes a box from the total.

Aha!! I knew, i KNEEEEEW (in fact, just suspected *blush*) i'd got smthng wrong when my player's sniper hit a Yak with scull and bones armour in armoured jacket with 7 net hits to Vitals and made just one health box))))))))))))))))))))))))))

THANK YOU!!!

[kirtimlak]

An Ingram Smartgun is base damage 8P.

...

If you had been wearing an armor jacket (armor rating of 12) then in this case your modified armor would be equal to or higher than the modified DV, and so you would have taken stun damage.

I'm good with determining S or P damage, just critically glitched logic roll concerning damage)))
Thank you!

[Smirnov]

I wrote a big post and then the server timed out so here's abridged version:

1) You shouldn't be able to multi-attack with one weapon because it renders shooting with 2 weapons redundant but I digress.
2) You can't multi-attack a single target regardless.
3) Your recoil comp is str/3+1(free)+1(weapon I assume?)=3
4) If you were shooting at 3 different targets your 1st phase would be 4/3/3 against the 3 targets with their full defence because they are not penalised by the burst because each target is attacked with 1 bullet.
5) Recoil compensation is lost forever until you spend 2 consecutive simple actions not shooting.
6) So your 2nd phase would be 3/2/2 at the opponents full defence pools.
7) Your weapon explodes from all the glitches you will no doubt roll. Just shoot once at one target to give them -2 to their defence. You're happy because your gun didn't explode and you may actually hit something and your group is happy because your action phases take 30 seconds to complete instead of 2mins.

Whoa... Do i get it right? I can't shoot at one person three times, but can shoot at three different people?

[Moirdryd]

*points at Multiattack myth thread*
Yes, that is correct. You either shoot oe target REALLY well, or multiple targets not so well with your spray of bullets.
The old "I shoot him with two bursts" is now "I shoot him with a long burst" which actually makes more sense, at least coming from SR3 where you could FA for +10power +3damage level (turning an Uzi into 17D iirc) or use two bursts to hit the target for for two sets of +3power +1damage level (two sets of 11S for most other SMGs) given that dodging was Combat Pool you were more likely to get hurt by the two bursts. In SR5 where there is just Damage instead of Power that fact becomes more true because you're getting the Base value of the gun Twice in the old Two Burst model.

[Beaumis]

Yes you got that right. In a single pass, you can attack multiple people, but you cannot attack the same person more than once. This is not limited to shooting but any form of attack.