Fixing speed in melee?, Just might work. Options

[Arethusa]

Ran my ideas by a couple friends of mine and came up with this; I think it really just might work:

The faster combatant recieves a Speed Reach bonus equal to the difference in ititiative between the two combatants / 10, rounded down. This bonus is not available during the first melee combat of the combat turn, and is available at 1 point progressive for each melee combat thereafter. This bonus functions as reach normally, but is not negatable by the Close Combat maneuver.

Basically, one speed crazy attacker with 5 actions this turn gets no bonus when attacking his opponent who has 1 action this round, but if he proceeds to attack for every action after his first, he'll have 1 point of reach for his second melee attack, 2 for his third, 3 for his fourth, and 4 for his fifth. Melee combats do not need to be consecutive for the bonus to carry over (though it resets at the beginning of each new turn, naturally). Personally, I think a person moving at 5 times the speed of a normal human being should ultimately have one hell of an edge, but he should definitely have to work for it.

A couple final notes: this is only applicable on offensive melee actions, which means a fast character doesn't get to build up a defensive bonus when being hit a second or third time. As a possible addendum suggested by a friend of mine, the bonus resets if the attacker desides to switch the reach bonus from applying to his skill roll to his opponents (or vice versa).

Initially, I was a little worried that initiative difference / 10 would be too powerful. 20, on the other hand, basically makes Speed Reach of 2 something that'll practically never happen, and even 15 makes it extremely rare. How often do you have a divide of 30 between two melee combatants? Given the people'll that'll be meeting in melee, seems likely that 10 is actually fairly balanced in practice.

[I Eat Time]

It's a little like the post I had put up on the other Thread about this, but definitely better. Speed in melee, if it gives you any advantage at all, shouldn't give you much, and shouldn't give you immediate. Plus, you can only get the full advantage of the speed reach bonus if and only if you fight for a few rounds. I for one like it.

[Moonstone Spider]

Too complicated. Why not simply rule that defending in a melee fight requires a complex action?

If you are attacked in a melee battle you must use a complex action from your next initiative pass to defend yourself. If you choose not to do so you do not recieve any dice from your applicable skill, but may use combat pool dice to dodge. If you have no actions left this turn you cannot use your melee skill to defend yourself.

This would not only be realistic, it would make a lower melee combat skill a viable option (As things stand anything less than 6 = suicide), as a relatively weak character could use melee combat to distract an enemy long enough for a teammate to shoot him in the head.

[I Eat Time]

I dunno, Spider. I'm more comfortable with small, stacked modifiers for the faster character than I am with whole complex actions spent on defending. The former seems less capable of being abused. Not that yours doesn't work as a good houserule, but if I'm deigning to change the combat rules because I think it's too simplified, I'll probably go with the more complicated alternative.

[TinkerGnome]

I still favor the notion of removing counterattacks completely and making the melee test an opposed roll with only the attacker able to deal damage (ie, when defender successes > attacker successes, nothing happens).

It's the simplest fix and makes the faster character more powerful in that he has twice the chances to deal damage as the slower character.

[BitBasher]

A TN mod is never ever a "Small stacked modifier" a TN mod in melee combat has a huge, huge effect, even a + or -1.

[Herald of Verjig...]

If you want counterattacking to use up actions, make it a simple action to reflect how defense usually requires less action. That way, a person can defend twice as often as they could attack and must be careful about how their actions are used up. I still see no reason for it, but it's better than the hideous TN mods and other equally excessive adjustments that have been suggested.

[Arethusa]

The problem with requiring the expenditure of a complex or simple action to defend is that you create a dynamic where the defender can defend himself just fine for an attack or two and then suddenly stops and stands still as attacks come in. Yes, it's stimple. It's also silly as hell.

Are Speed Reach modifiers significant? Yeah. But they don't come easy, and when do people with more than difference of 29 really ever get into melee combat?

[Entropy Kid]

Keep in mind that the Complex Action used to attack allows as many as the attacker wants, but at increasing TN#.

How about this: Defenders get a +1TN after every turn they counterattack if they are out of actions.

If a Street Samurai gets four turns, and a normal gets two...
Sam goes first, attacks. Norm defends, counterattacks without penalty.
Norm goes second, attacks. Sam defends, counterattacks without penalty.
-10 and...
Sam goes first, attacks. Norm defends, counterattacks without penalty.
Norm goes second, attacks. Sam defends, counterattacks without penalty.
-10...
Sam goes, attacks. Norm defends, counterattacks without penalty; now gaining a +1TN to his next defense.
-10...
Sam goes, attacks. Norm defends, counterattacks at a +1TN

If Norm had only gone once, his last defense would have been at +2TN, but only if he had previously counterattacked.

Another idea is to not allow Combat Pool to refresh if out of turns and still engaged in melee combat. Of course, anyone with a gun standing five meters outside of the fight will love this.

[A Clockwork Lime]

There's a difference between a counterattack (where your goal is to hurt the opponent) and defending yourself (where you simply counter successes).

I've been using this house rule for quite a while and it's worked without a hitch. Unaugmented characters don't gain any advantages from augmented opponents, nor are they left helpless as their skill is still the dominating force behind the encounter.

The house rule is pretty simple: If you have a Simple Action available that phase, you can sacrifice it to counterattack (which is particularly useful especially for adepts with the Counterstrike power). Otherwise, you're simply defending yourself. One of the perks of a counterattack for mundane characters is that it is only a Simple Action, allowing them to either counterattack twice (if facing multiple opponents) or perform some other Simple Action when their turn comes up.

[Moonstone Spider]

[Arethusa]

What I'm saying is that in the system I proposed, it gets significantly difficult to defend against successive and very quickly overwhelming attacks, but it's not impossible. I dislike a system that simply lays down a rule instead of making the dynamic mechanically emergent.

That said, I think I really am growing to like the idea of requiring a simple action to counter attack and otherwise simply not allowing the defender to do damage. I'd like to include speed based bonuses one way or another, but I'm starting wonder if it's really doable.

[Gem the Troll]

You're forgetting something...the whole counter attack thing...it's basically a way to show the instinctive portion of melee combat. Let's say Player 1 has an unarmed combat 6 and 1 action per round, let's say that player 2 has unarmed combat at 3, but he's a quick, wiry bastard, and gets a round with three actions. Reallistically speaking, somebody who's trained to fight with their hands (or melee weapon) can take advantage of somebody else's mistake to score a hit on their opponent (thus the oppossed dice rolls). Remember the rolled attacks are a representation of significant effort in a fight. There's a lot of feinting, blocking, dodging, dancing around, etc in a fight, that for storyline purposes would be pretty dull. Try watching a movie with the fights done like you roll for shadowrun...it's all the stuff in between that makes it visually appealling and believable.

[Arethusa]

I'm not forgetting about counter attacks. I'm saying that a person who normally gets one attack shouldn't be benefitted by essentially getting three attacks for free when the poor speed samurai makes the mistake of attacking him three times of his own volition, only to have his ass handed to him four times faster than would have been possible if he stood completely still and asked his slow budy to hit him. Speed should give a benefit in melee. I'm just worried that there's no way to factor it in without either not going far enough or going too far and negating skill's presence in the equation.

[I Eat Time]

[Gem the Troll]

But that's the thing about taking a big swing...you leave yourself open to the counter attack...that's where skill comes into play. If you're more skilled, you should still be able to take down a faster opponent (within reason). If what you're going for is to give another player a shot with a ranged weapon, tell the gm you're going full defense. If you're outclassed, that's real life. What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. What kills you, provides food for ghouls.

[Arethusa]

What do you mean by within reason? We're potentially talking about augmented combatants operating at 5 times the speed of a normal human being. I don't even know what you're referring to by talking about taking a big swing.

[Dashifen]

I'll just repeat what I said in the other thread, for what ever good it will do me. Melee is fine. Don't change it. YMMV

[I Eat Time]

[BitBasher]

Bull, with skilled martial artists, noone "takes the time" to do anything, there's not even conscious thought involved. They swing, you hurt them for it, pure and complete reflex, no though is involved at all. If you have to think about it, they means you're not very good at it and are unlikely to suceed. That's the point of practicing it in repetition over and over, to make it reflex.

[Entropy Kid]

[Cain]

[A Clockwork Lime]

[snowRaven]

I agree BitBasher - which is why I like Arethusa's suggestion of 'speed reach'.

While the counters are reflex and so doesn't take 'time' as far as actually planning out an action go, there should be difference between someone who is a normal metahuman and someone who replaced his spinal cord with superconductors (or worse - has a Move-by-Wire) simply because their reflexes are just a little bit faster.

The 'speed reach' is a good indicator of that, I think. I'm gonna run this by my gaming group - see what they think.

[Cain]

Almost forgot....

While I personally see the rules as being decently balanced as is, one of the interpretations I add is that you can only change your combat option/maneuvers on your action. Thus, faster people have more flexibility to respond to the other guy.

As an example: Slowpoke Segal is fighting Jean-Claude Van Damme-Hes-Fast. Slowpoke is on his last initiative pass, and decides to instigate Evasion, in order to try and outlast his opponent. Jean realizes this, and on his next pass-- and subesquent remaining actions-- switches over to Full Offense. The increased TN to be hit is meaningless, since Segal can't actually cause him any damage.