Fixing speed in melee?, Just might work. Options

[Zazen]

[tjn]

[A Clockwork Lime]

??? How on earth so? At absolute most it draws out the length of melee combat since the defender has to defend (instead of counterstrike) against incoming attacks..

[Zazen]

[Fahr]

ACL, I don't understand why you don't understand that we just don't agree with your premise that it IS broken... if it never comes up in practice, (never has in my games 6+ years) and most of the people with some MA background seem to agree with the cannon interpretation, than why should we (those of us who don't think it is broken)change it.

If you don't like the way it works, and you want speed to be more effective in melee than skill, than go ahead and houserule it for your games. but don't expect everyone else to agree with your assesment of it. or to demand that we change cannon to fit what YOU think is a major problem but not everyone agrees is a major problem.

-Mike R.

[A Clockwork Lime]

I do understand. But a few of you are going about saying that 1) you don't understand why others see that it IS broken and 2) keep coming up with weird comments about how fixing it somehow unbalances the game.

[Arethusa]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[tjn]

Sic'ing a group of six force three watchers upon a mage that isn't perceptiing yet, virtually garuntees a surprise beatdown when they go to cast a spell. Each watcher has 3 actions to attack, 3 dice to attack with a TN 2 most likely, and deals 3L staged up normally, resisted by body and armor doesn't apply. By the time the mage gets an action to shut off the astral sense, they are either knocked out, or laboring under a severe stun. And the Watchers are still there waiting for the mage to cast another spell.

Least with the counter attack rules, the mage has a chance of doing some damage before they get knocked the hell out.

Note, most weenie packs don't go after the astrally assensing Adept with more dice then God.

EDIT: Wow that's a flurry, was in response to ACL :P

[Fahr]

aretheusa, I did read you speed post. I don't agree with your assesment. there are things that react and move faster than humans today, so I am pretty sure I can imagine what it would be like for a MA to deal with it. Take any number of animals in the natural world. such as a deer, or Boar. these animals react faster and move faster than humans can. (taking fastest human vs. fastest deer/boar/whatever) but you can still defend against them if they attack you and you know what to do, and even hurt hem back.

so I disagree with your assesment that we have nothing to compare this speed against.

but really, my true bone is that like AE, I don't see this as a big enough problem to warrant slowing down combat by adding more rules to initiative.
the system as it is works well enough that I have never had any complaints from anyone. and adding more rules or another system, unless it is simpler than the current one, is not likely to win me over. it's like trying to fix a off-kilter picture by jacking up one side of the house so it's level. the effort and time doe not produce a result that is significantly better (more fun, easier to do, more realistic,more balanced) than the original rules.

-Mike R.

[Zazen]

[Austere Emancipa...]

I must say this thread is rather ironic for me, since I'm currently doing some major tweaking to my Medieval Fantasy Shadowrun melee rules. Needless to say, those are a fair bit more complex than the canon rules, and its basic functioning principle solves this particular problem quite neatly indeed.

[Arethusa]

[Austere Emancipa...]

I will make no attempt to edit this into a readable form. If you want it, PM me with your email address and I'll send it to you as an Excel 2002 file. This is just to show why I can't really elaborate here... The most important bit is the very beginning.

[ Spoiler ]

Melee Skill Pooling
All melee combat skills are pooled for offense and defense, much like Sorcery is for Spellcasting and Spell
Defense. CP can be added to both offense and defense tests up to the # of skill dice in that pool. Offense works
just like attacking works in canon. A char's melee combat skill pools only refresh in the beginning of his/her action.
A defense pool die can only be used to defend against one attack before the char's next action, or against any
number of attacks with a cumulative +1 TN per attack beyond the first. If a defending character gets net successes,
he/she does not automatically counterattack or do damage.
Offhand Weapons
Offhand weapons add half the respective skill (e.g. Offhand Longsword, unless ambidextrous in which case just
Longsword), rounded up, to be used for off or def pools. They only add dice to either, an offhand weapon does
not increase damage (Longsword 4 + Offhand Dagger 4 just as effective as Longsword 4 + Offhand Longsword
4, unless you lose your main weapon or some other special situation).
A shield is a special type of offhand weapon, which has a defense base TN of 3 and offense base TN of 5.
Otherwise it follows all the rules of offhand weapons.
Reach
Net reach increases the offense TN of the character with reach disadvantage. (Not any other TNs.) You can
attempt to negate reach by going Up Close and Personal (Combat Option, Complex Action).
Breaking Off Melee (Combat Option, Complex Action)
Breaking Off Melee allows the enemy an Intercept. If tie or BOMer gets net successes, melee breaks up with
distance = longer reach +1 meters.
Intercepts
Amount of Intercepts = 1/Pass + the standard attack (so if you Intercept twice in the first pass, you can no
longer do a normal attack in the 1st pass). Intercept uses the same, full, offensive pool as the standard attack.
Defense
All defense dice against an attack (def pool from all weapons, CP for defending with weapons, dodging) must
be declared at the same time. Declaring defense dice, including those from Defense Pool, is not an action.
1 One-Hander
With only 1 one-handed weapon, Dodge TN -1 (Base 3).
Shield Breaking
If Penetration of an attack is higher than the Barrier rating of a shield, the shield takes 1 point of damage. If the
Power is twice as high as the Barrier rating, the shield takes 2 points, etc. Once the damage taken exceeds
the shield's Hardness it is broken.
Attacking an Object (Combat Option, Complex Action)
When attacking an object in the possession of a combatant, resolve the attack as a normal offense test, except
that the target object cannot be used to defend against the attack (if e.g. shield or weapon). Every net success
increases the Power of the attack by 2.
Disarming (Combat Option, Complex Action)
Special case of attacking an object. Target must be a disarmable weapon. The wielder of the weapon must
succeed in a weapon skill test with a TN of 4 (TN 2 with a two-handed weapon) and a treshold of (net successes
in the disarming attack) or drop the weapon.
Mounted Combat
Controlling a mount in combat is a Riding/Mounted Combat test with a TN of 4, 2 or more successes makes it
a Free Action, 1 success makes it a Simple Action. +2 TN for an untrained mount (TN 4 just to stay in control).
Enemies get +1 TN to attack a character on a mount. Mounted combatant gets +1 TN if mount runs. +2 Power
and +1 Damage Level for lance attacks from a running mount.
As a Free Action, Riding/Mounted Combat can be substituted for a Dodge test for the mount.
Full Defense (Combat Option, Complex Action)
As normal: Only melee combat skill at first, then Dodge test -- this breaks the usual rule for declaring all defense
at the same time. Offhand shields use their full skill when on full defense.
Subduing Combat (Combat Option, Complex Action)
Unarmed Combat, +1 TN. Net success treshold = target Quickness. One success is enough for a grasp -- if kept
until next subduing attempt, removes the +1 TN penalty; lost if grasper successfully attacked. Subdued =
immobilized, cannot act, may be knocked prone. Open Test with net successes to determine TN of S or Q test
to break free, which is a Complex Action. Subduer can attack (CA) to cause (Str)L Stun or to get new successes
for the Open Test -- subduer gets -1, -2 if subduee prone. Subduer gets +4 TN to all other actions, can't move or
initiate an attack. Breaking a hold is a Free Action
Stunning Weapons
Weapons that do Stun damage by standard can be wielded to do Physical damage, but with half (round down) the
Power.
Melee Combat Modifiers Value Modifies What?
Reach +Net Reach Inferior reach Offense
Defending vs Multiple +1/Opponent over 1 Own Defense (Only if using Defense Pool against all)
UC&P +1 (+2) Offense for both (Shield use for both)
Single one-hand weapon -1 Own Dodge
Target combatant mounted +1 Own Offense
Mount running +1 Own Offense (+2 Power, +1 DL with a lance, no TN mod)
Attacking vs Multiple +2/Opponent over 1 Own Offense (Only if using Offense Pool against all)
Target fast moving +1 Own Offense (Eg target running by)
Inferior position +1 Own Offense
Prone +1 Own Offense & Defense
Ranged Combat Modifiers Value Modifies What?
Attacker walking +1 Own Offense
Attacker walking, difficult ground +2 Own Offense
Attacker running +4 Own Offense
Attacker running, difficult ground +6 Own Offense
Mount moving * As atker movement
Target still -1 Own Offense
Target running +2 Own Offense
Target prone +1 Own Offense
Attacker in melee combat +2/Opponent Own Offense
Visibility Varies (+1 - +8) Own Offense
Cover +1/+2/+4/+6 Own Offense (25%/50%/75%/90%)
Knockdown Attack (Combat Option, Complex Action)
Attack ruled as normal, staged, but does not inflict damage. Target rolls a knockdown test but with +4 to attacker's
Strength -- Body (Str+4). If no successes, prone. If as many successes as virtual damage boxes, no effect. If in
between, knocked back a meter or two. If damage would've staged to Deadly, +2 TN (+1 per box over).
Take Aim (Combat Option, Simple Action)
-1 TN on a directly following Bow or Crossbow shot. Stacks up to 1+(Skill/2) times.
Penetration
All weapons and physical attacks have a Penetration rating which, together with the attack type and Power of the
attack, determines if and how well armor is penetrated by it. If the target of an attack is wearing armor, add the
Penetration rating to the armor rating to determine the Damage Resistante TN. Every point by which armor would
drop DamRes TN under 2 adds 1 die to the DamRes test.
Up Close and Personal (Combat Option, Complex Action)
Gives enemy Intercept. If UC&Per gets net successes, reach is negated and both parties get +1 TN to all melee
attack tests and +2 TN to all shield use tests. Break Off Melee required to end UC&P.
Standard Attack (Combat Option, Complex Action)
Follows the standard SR rules for a standard melee attack, except: The attacker uses Offense Pool dice instead of
the full skill, and the defender uses Defense Pool dice instead of full skill and will not do damage even if s/he gets
net successes.
Fire Projectile (Combat Option, Simple Action)
Follows the standard SR rules for firing a bow or crossbow or throwing a weapon. Firing or throwing a weapon while
engaged in melee combat allows all enemies an intercept.
HitLoc (Melee)
3 Foot (-1 DL, no OD) 11 Right Arm (-1 DL, no OD) High: +2 TN, 1d4+14
4 Foot (-1 DL, no OD) 12 Abdomen
5 Leg (-1 DL, no OD) 13 Hip
6 Leg (-1 DL, no OD) 14 Chest
7 Leg (-1 DL, no OD) 15 Shoulders
8 Thigh (-1 DL, no OD) 16 Head (+1 DL)
9 Thigh (-1 DL, no OD) 17 Neck (+1 DL)
10 Left Arm (-1 DL, no OD) 18 Eyes (+1 DL)
HitLoc (Ranged)
3 Trachea/Spine (+1 DL9 11 Right-Side Chest
4 Trachea/Spine (+1 DL) 12 Abdomen
5 Heart/Lungs (+1 DL) 13 Right Arm
6 Left Leg 14 Hip
7 Left Leg 15 Hip
8 Left Arm 16 Head
9 Right Leg 17 Face
10 Left-Side Chest 18 Eyes
Martial Arts
Unless otherwise mentioned, the style is for the Unarmed Combat skill.
Aikido, Jujitsu
Jujitsu originates from the Yellow Sea archipelago, being used by imperial soldiers for over 2000 years. Aikido is a
more recent version of it, only some 200 years old, directed even more to self-defense, to be taught to civilians.
+1 die with Subduing Combat and Full Defense. -1 die to attacks during the first CT of self-initiated combat.
Counter-Attack, Evasion, Focus Will, Ground Fighting, Herding, Improved Subdue, Prod, Sweep, Whirling.
Arnis de Mano, Kali
Originates from Southwestern Zakhara, nearly 8000 years old, not many practitioners in Faerun. Kali is a Chultan
martial art with similar movements, probably offshoot of Arnis de Mano from about 3000 years back.
Maneuvers work with clubs and knives (up to dagger). -1 die during any CT where the character has moved.
Close Combat, Focus Strength, Ground Fighting, Kick Attack, Kip-up, Multi-Strike, Sweep, Vicious Blow, Zoning.
Battle Prowess
A martial art created by templars of Tempus some 800 years ago and taught exclusively by them to other faithfuls.
Edged, Hafted or Polearm style. +1 die during the first CT of self-initiated combat. -2 dice to Full Defense.
Blind Fighting, Focus Strength, Full Offense, Herding, Multi-Strike, Prod, Sweep, Vicious Blow, Zoning.
Beast Claw, Dragon Claw (Dragon Claw can also be an Edged Weapon style)
Beast Claw was created by and is taught exclusively by and to People of the Black Blood, lycanthrope Malar
cultists. Dragon Claw isn't based on this, but was created by the Cult of the Dragon only some 100 years ago.
Claw bracers "default" to Beast Claw at no modifier. +1 die when using UC&P or Full Offense. -1 die when using Full
Defense or Subduing Combat (-1 Full Defense and Disarming with Edged Weapons Dragon Claw).
Close Combat, Disorient, Focus Strength, Full Offense, Ground Fighting, Multi-Strike, Vicious Blow, Whirling, Zoning.
Bladesing
Possibly more than 20,000 years old, created in the ancient elven realms. Taught only by and to elven warriors.
Edged Weapon-style. +2 dice when using Disorient or Whirling. -2 dice UC&P and Knockdown Attack.
Counter-Attack, Disorient, Evasion, Focus Strength, Herding, Multi-Strike, Prod, Whirling, Zoning.
Bow
Can learn maneuvers at any time. Eg can raise Bow to 6 first, then learn 3 Maneuvers for 12 Karma.
Close Shot, Improved Indirect Fire, Prone Fire, Rapid Shot, Snap Shot.
Brawling, Pitfighting
Can learn maneuvers at any time. Eg can raise Brawling to 6 first, then learn 3 Maneuvers for 12 Karma.
Close Combat, Evasion, Full Offense, Ground Fighting, Herding, Kick Attack, Prod, Vicious Blow, Zoning.
Broken Way
The martial art of the Broken Ones, a monastic order of followers of Ilmater. Around 500 years old, it is taught in all
monasteries of Ilmater to anyone who shows potential.
Simple Action Focus Will, +2 dice with Subduing Combat. -1 to attacks during the first CT of self-initiated combat.
Blind Fighting, Close Combat, Counter-Attack, Disorient, Evasion, Focus Will, Ground Fighting, Imp Subdue, Whirling.
Carromeleg, Sun Soul
A flowing, dance-like martial art, in many ways the unarmed counterpart of bladesinging. Taught more freely, but still
very rarely to non-elves or outsiders. The Sun Soul way is taught by the Sun Soul order, especially followers of Sune
within the order, and is rather recent at perhaps 100 years of age.
+1 die when using Ground Fighting. -1 die in tight areas or when movement is restricted.
Disorient, Evasion, Ground Fighting, Herding, Kick Attack, Kip-up, Multi-Strike, Sweep, Whirling
Dark Moon
Taught in monasteries of Shar, the way of the Dark Moon monks has been copied by many wanna-bes, such as
thieves' or assassins' guilds in major cities.
Maneuvers work with chakrams. +2 dice using Disorient. -1 die when using Knockdown, -2 dice Subduing Combat.
Blind Fighting, Disorient, Evasion, Focus Strength, Full Offense, Herding, Kick Attack, Silencing Attack, Zoning.
Edged Weapons
Can learn maneuvers at any time. Eg can raise Edged Weapons to 6 first, then learn 3 Maneuvers for 12 Karma.
Close Combat, Counter-Attack, Full Offense, Ground Fighting, Herding, Multi-Strike, Prod, Sweep, Zoning.
Ever Watchful
The Way of Helm is taught in temples of Helm rather freely. Only about 200 years old, it is quite popular especially
with humans of the Sword Coast, Cormyr and Dalelands.
Shield style. +1 die when using Full Defense. -1 die in any CT where the character has moved.
Close Shield, Evasion, Kip-up
Hafted Weapons
Can learn maneuvers at any time. Eg can raise Hafted Weapons to 6 first, then learn 3 Maneuvers for 12 Karma.
Close Combat, Full Offense, Ground Fighting, Herding, Multi-Strike, Prod, Sweep, Vicious Blow, Zoning
Hin Fist
Created by the halflings of Luiren, this has started spreading with the influx of halfling adventurers from that distant
realm into the Heartlands. Freely taught, but masters are few. Not liked by the big and burly.
+1 die when using Full Defense or UC&P. -2 dice when using Knockdown Attack.
Close Combat, Counter-Attack, Evasion, Focus Strength, Ground Fighting, Herding, Sweep, Whirling, Zoning.
Karate
Designed as a way to get over "no weapons" laws on the northern shores of the Yellow Sea almost 5,000 years
ago, it is taught freely if only one can find a master.
+1 die when using Full Defense option or Full Offense maneuver. -2 dice for Subduing Combat option.
Blind Fighting, Evasion, Focus Strength, Focus Will, Full Offense, Kick Attack, Sweep, Vicious Blow, Whirling
Kung-fu
Slowly developed over the last 4,000 years in the Shou Empire, northeastern Kara-Tur, the "Skill" is practiced mostly
by travelers from those parts, although recently a few schools have opened in Waterdeep and Athkathla.
Maneuvers work with several polearms and some swords. +1 enemy Knockdown test TN. -1 die on Full Defense and
Subduing Combat options.
Blind Fighting, Focus Strength, Full Offense, Ground Fighting, Kick, Kip-up, Multi-Strike, Vicious Blow, Whirling
Long Death
Practiced by the monastic order of Long Death, it is not truly a single martial art, and only named by outsiders. Only
taught by and to members of the order.
+2 dice when using Full Offense. -1 die when using Full Defense.
Blind Fighting, Disorient, Focus Strength, Focus Will, Full Offense, Kick Attack, Multi-Strike, Vicious Blow, Whirling.
Loyal Fury
Created by paladins of Torm, it is taught to all followers of Torm, Tyr and Ilmater who are willing to take part in the
rigorous physical training of the path of the warrior in a temple of Torm.
Edged, Hafted or Polearm style. +1 die when using Counter-Attack or Full Defense. -1 die to UC&P.
Counter-Attack, Evasion, Focus Strength, Focus Will, Herding, Multi-Strike, Sweep, Whirling, Zoning.
Muay Thai
A kickboxing martial art originating from the peninsula of Kara-Tur parting the Yellow sea from the Celestial Sea,
some forms of Muay Thai are now taught in Amn, with one famed school in Athkathla, though masters are very rare.
+2 dice when using Kick Attack maneuver. -1 in tight areas and when movement is restricted.
Close Combat, Focus Strength, Full Offense, Ground Fighting, Herding, Kick Attack, Kip-up, Sweep, Zoning
Ninjutsu, Fire Knife
Developed for use by the spy and assassin clans in the Yellow Sea area, this martial art is jealously guarded by the
clans, and outsiders can only learn it by learning from the (few living) rogue ninja.
Maneuvers work with a wide range of melee weapons. Either Hunted by a clan or strict ties to one.
Blind Fighting, Close Combat, Disorient, Evasion, Ground Fighting, Kick Attack, Silencing Attack, Sweep, Zoning
Orc Smash
Encompasses the variety of fighting styles embraced (and appropriately named) by devotees of Gruumsh.
Hafted Weapons style. +2 dice when using Blind Swing, +1 die using Full Offense. -2 dice when using Full Defense.
Blind Fighting, Blind Swing, Close Combat, Full Offense, Ground Fighting, Multi-Strike, Sweep, Vicious Blow, Whirl.
Pentjak-Silat
Pentjak-Silat originates from the southern Celestial Sea and is several thousand years old. Masters are very rare in
Faerun, but available at least in eastern and southern lands.
Maneuvers work with knives. +2 die when using Called Shot option. -2 dice when using Subduing Combat option.
Blind Fighting, Close Combat, Evasion, Focus Will, Ground Fighting, Multi-Strike, Prod, Sweep, Whirling
Polearms
Can learn maneuvers at any time. Eg can raise Polearms to 6 first, then learn 3 Maneuvers for 12 Karma.
Evasion, Full Offense, Ground Fighting, Herding, Multi-Strike, Prod, Sweep, Vicious Blow, Zoning.
Tae Kwon Do
Originates from a far eastern north shores of the Celestial Sea in Kara-Tur over 6,000 years ago, it has spread into
Faerun in the last 300 years, where several martial art schools have hired masters because of the art's aesthetics.
Flying kick: Kick Attack with Called Shot, Disarming or Knockdown Attack. -1 die when using Called Shot.
Focus Strength, Full Offense, Herding, Kick Attack, Kip-up, Multi-Strike, Sweep, Vicious Blow, Whirling
Tai Chi Ch'uan, Shining Hand
Some forms of this ancient martial art from the Shou Empire are more relaxation techniques. A few fames schools
in Faerun. Shining Hand is practiced by the monastic followers of Azuth mainly in Amn, and is unrelated to Tai Chi.
Simple Action Focus Strength and Focus Will. -2 dice in any CT where the character has moved.
Blind Fighting, Evasion, Focus Strength, Focus Will, Herding, Kip-up, Prod, Sweep, Whirling
Way of the Arch, Deepwood Sniping
Bow style. +2 dice after at least one Take Aim action. -1 die if firing without any Take Aim.
Improved Indirect Fire, Long Shot, Range Specialization, Sharp Shooting, Zen Archery.
Wildcat
Originally taught in Tethyr as a straight-forward, no-nonsense martial art for soldiers, it has then spread northwards
on the Sword Coast, with a new school recently opened in Waterdeep.
Halved Called Shot modifiers. -3 dice to Subduing Combat.
Close Combat, Counter-Attack, Full Offense, Ground Fighting, Kick Attack, Multi-Strike, Sweep, Vicious Blow, Zoning
Rules
Acquiring
A character can learn 1 maneuver per every even rank in a skill for the price of 4 Karma. One maneuver per odd rank
can be learned, but at the price of 8 Karma. Learning maneuvers requires intensive training and tutoring from a
dedicated teacher. A character can only learn maneuvers for one rank lower than he currently is at. Eg a char with
Aikido-4 but no Maneuvers can only learn 1 maneuver for 4 Karma and another for 8.
Using
Maneuvers are directly linked to the skill for which they were learned, and they cannot be used with other skills,
unless the bonus/penalty from the maneuver obviously applies to another skill test, such as Jousting.
Type
All maneuvers are Instant (no action, but can only be used once per InitPass where the char has actions), Permanent
(no action, the maneuver is always in effect), Free Action, Simple Action or Complex Action. Any Free, Simple or
Complex Action cannot combine 2 maneuvers, a maneuver and an option, or 2 options unless otherwise mentioned.
Melee Combat Type Effect
Blind Fighting P -2 visibility modifiers. Does not work with other maneuvers.
Blind Swing CA Only during rage. Standard attack with +1 DL. Provokes intercept.
Close Combat P No TN penalty from UC&P, -1 Power.
Close Shield P Halves the UC&P penalty to shield use (+1 instead of +2).
Counter-Attack CA If before char's next action gets more successes while defending against an attack
counter-attack as though with a standard attack and successes = net successes
on the defending test
Disorient CA Standard attack, deals no damage, +1 TN to target's actions per net success, max
+2, until the end of next InitPass or the end of current CT, whichever comes first.
Evasion P -1 TN for Dodge tests during Full Defense.
Focus Strength CA +1 Power to next melee attack. Cumulative up to Willpower/2.
Focus Will CA +2 W to next contest of wills vs materialized spirit. Cumulative up to Willpower.
Full Offense CA Normal attack with +1 Damage Level. -1 TN to enemy attacks until your next action.
Ground Fighting CA Removes melee penalties from being prone. Works with Standard Attack and Full
Defense.
Herding CA Standard attack, deals no damage, if net successes or tie target has Inferior
Position for 1 CT, moved 1 meter per net successes (limited by movement rate).
Improved Subdue CA As Subduing Combat but no +1 TN.
Kick Attack CA Standard attack with +1 Reach. -1 TN for enemy attacking the kicker until kicker's
next action.
Kip-up I If knocked prone, Quickness (6) test to get back up as a Free Action.
Multi-Strike CA Standard attack, halves penalty of attacking multiple opponents with same Offense
Pool dice.
Prod CA Standard attack, -1 TN, halved Power.
Shield Bash I Switches between the standard (Off 5/Def 3) and Off 4/Def 4 TNs for shields.
Silencing Attack CA Standard attack at +1 TN, target unable to utter a sound for (net successes) CTs.
Sweep CA As Knockdown Attack, but does inflict damage, albeit at half Power.
Vicious blow CA Standard attack with a weapon that normally does Stun damage, deals Physical at
-1 Power instead.
Whirling CA Standard attack with +1 TN. Half the number of attacks for penalties to using the
same Defense Pool dice against several attacks until character's next action.
Zoning CA Standard attack, deals no damage. If net successes or a tie, character gains -1 TN
to one melee combat skill test

Ranged Combat Effect
Close Shot SA Fire projectile, does not allow intercepts, +1 TN.
Imp Indirect Fire SA As Indirect Fire Combat Option, except 1 success always negates Scatter.
Long Shot SA Fire projectile, increases Medium, Long and Extreme ranges by 25%.
Prone Fire P Allows firing bows or throwing weapons while prone with a +1 TN modifier.
Range Spec P Specialized to S, M, L or E. -1 TN to all uses of the skill at that range, or -2 TN at E.
Rapid Reload I Crossbow (5) test to halve base reload time. If fails, double base time.
Rapid Shot CA Ready+Fire+Ready+Fire projectile, +1 TN.
Sharp Shooting FA Called shot, TN penalties one lower.
Snap Shot FA Fire projectile with a readied weapon, +1 TN.
Zen Archery CA -3 TN on a directly following shot, max modifier of Willpower/2, rounded up.


Riding Effect
Deflect Attack P Can use melee combat Defense Pool to defend the mount against attacks.
Jousting CA -1 TN to a lance attack in the character's next action
Mount as Shield CA Riding (4) test, 1/4th Cover per success, max 3/4th, one dir only.
Mounted Archery P Halved penalties from mount movement for firing projectiles.
Spirited Charge P +1 Power of all weapon attacks from a running mount.
Stable Lance P No TN penalty for attacking with a lance while mount is running.
Superior Balance P Can wield any melee weapons in mounted combat.
Tall in the Saddle P -1 TN on Mounted Combat checks to Dodge for a mount.
Trample FA Commands a still or walking mount to trample, penalties as from a running mount

Social Effect
Bootlicker P -1 TN to Etiquette and Negotiation tests when target has the advantage.
Charlatan P -1 TN to Negotiation with sufficient background info on the target.
Psych-Out CA Intimidation test. If target gets no successes, he gets modifiers as from a Light Stun.
The target can attempt a new WIL test without expending any action at the start of
any Combat Turn, a single success negates the modifier.
Push Buttons CA As Psych-out, but Open Etiquette test and no modifiers for size/weapons/threat.
Quack P -1 TN to Etiquette and Negotiation tests where char must fake expertise/knowledge.
Trustworthy P -1 TN to Negotiation to pry for secrets



Athletics Effect
Relaxed Running P -2 TN on Athletics tests to soak Fatigue when running.
Sure-Footed P -2 TN on balance-related tests.

Climbing Effect
Spider's Hands P -1 TN for climbing without a rope or similar aids.

Stealth Effect
Movement Timing P +1 to Stealth when there are any significant, predictable background noises.

[Lantzer]

Do a lot of Faerun runs, A.E.?

[Austere Emancipa...]

0 thus far. Maybe in 6 months...

[tjn]

[Cain]

The reason why I don't use skill 1 examples is because I don't find them to be common. But okay, if you want to go with them...

Let's say that two characters are fighting, both with skill 1. One of them rolls his one dice, and it comes up a 1-- an "oops". Would you agree that he likely tripped and fell on his face?

Now, we have three people with skill 1, fighting another guy with skill 1. One of the three rolls a 1, and fumbles. Would you agree that he probably tripped and fell in front of his buddies?

Now, we have a crowdful of people with skill 1, fighting our poor beleagured newbie. One of the crowd rolls a 1. Would you agree that he probably tripped and fell in front of his buddies, and got trampled in the process?

When we have 16 people attacking a guy, and they all have skill 1, there's an equal chance on both sides that they'll fumble. What's more the superfast crowd of attacking buddies (S.C.A.B.) has a lot more combat pool. So, yes, our target has a chance to hurt a lot of SCABs. But, he's just as likely to hurt himself-- and what's more, if he does hurt a lot of them, he probably just tripped one of them, who was in turn trampled by his buddies.

Oh, and Lime-- the problem with the watcher attack pack strategy is that it's damn near instant death for any astral combatant. Whirling and unlimited counterattacks is the only way of beating the tactic. What you've missed in the tactic is the really honking huge spirit who's using the watchers as a distraction, and the mage sitting back reading a spell.

Arethrusa: I don't think the rule is broken in the slightest. In order for it to happen, the attacker has to roll worse than the defender, multiple times. If he rolled worse, he did worse. It's not as bad as TN modifiers (the old reach rule was way overpowered, for one) and it's useless against multiple opponents. (Yes, the defender can have whirling-- but they can use maneuvers too.) It's not like it automatically confers some huge edge on the player; it means that he's got a chance, nothing more.

If you think speed deserves more of an advantage, that's cool. That's your opinion, and YMMV. I don't share that opinion, and I think the rules are fine as is. (Well, mostly; I still like the idea of people hurting each other instead of there being a definite winner and loser. But I'm OK with the normal system.)

[ShadowGhost]

I don't think there's any problems with the melee combat rules as they stand.

And remember, Unarmed Combat is a skill that is derived from the Strength attribute, not Quickness or reaction. Every skill in SR comes from, or defaults to a single attribute.

By changing the rules to include reaction/initiative bonuses to Unarmed Combat, you're diluting the point that it's your Strength attribute that sets the damage, not reaction/initiative.

What's next, should we add quickness/reaction/initiative bonuses to swords 'cause you can swing em really fast compared to the mage with 6 essence?

I think this whole argument is simply a bunch of twinkies who want more bonuses than Reaction/Initiative enhancing cyberware actually gives in game mechanics.

If you want to add this "realism" to speed and Unarmed Combat, they we have to change the rules for Ranged combat. Why, cause a super-fast sammy ought to be able to pull a trigger more than twice a combat pass... to the point where they can empty a 15 round magazine in a semi-auto in a single complex action. After all, that's just twitching a finger 3/4 of an inch to pull a trigger, which is nothing compared to making 4-5 unarmed combat attacks in an initiative turn.

[A Clockwork Lime]

You didn't really read many of the posts, did you ShadowGhost?

[ShadowGhost]

Have you ever seen a simple block that can shatter an elbow or knee? I have. That's one, simple block that does major damage to the human body. No side-stepping, no jumping, no fancy maneuvers, no whirling, no twisting, no dodging.

Just One. Single. Block. And the attacker has broken bones without ever landing a blow.

Under your beliefs that the defender shouldn't be allowed to do damage to an attacker, or that it should somehow be limited, or much harder to harm an attacker, is unrealistic in the face of this reality.

When you see martial arts demonstrations where one, ordinary human defends themselves against 8 attackers, it makes your point moot.

I've studied karate, and participated in lessons where you are in the middle of a circle, defending yourself from several attackers at once, all of whom art at your belt level, for 10 minutes straight. It's exhausting, brutal hard work - you're up against people who are faster, and slower than yourself, stronger and weaker....but guess what. It's not impossible. Sometimes you lose, and sometimes you hold your own against 4-8 people at once for 30-45 seconds: 10-15 combat entire combat turns in Shadowrun.


To follow it to a logical conclusion, if the defender cannot make that simple, potentially knee shattering, single block, (i.e hurt the attacker), then the attacker should be allowed completely unopposed attacks on a defender who is out of actions. Why? Because a simple block (not a counterattack, a block!) can do nasty damage. And if you can't block, you're getting hurt.

[A Clockwork Lime]

So in other words, because you've seen some lame videos and demonstrations where a "master" gets a bunch of his students to attack him just right, the power of Kung Fu should be unstoppable. While, in nearly the same breath, you chastise people who prefer to see more realistic results in combat as being "a bunch of twinkies who want more bonuses than Reaction/Initiative enhancing cyberware actually gives in game mechanics."

Yeaaaaaaah. Since we're throwing names around, you sound more like a twink than anyone else in the thread. Behold the undeniable power of Kung Fu! Awwwhhhhmmmm... I guess that's why every army in the world focuses extensively on Kung Fu training, because one man can take down all opponents with ease just by throwing up a single block. Especially since it takes so much longer to kill four people using an assault rifle in fully automatic mode than it would be to take them down with a single counterstrike. Awesome!

I dunno. When I've seen demonstrations or watch a good movie where a fight takes place, they usually last a little longer than a half nanosecond.

However, if I ever find myself under attack by a 2x4 resting on some cinder blocks, I'll be sure to call on your assistance.

[John Campbell]

I have serious reservations about martial arts skills being Strength-linked, anyway. I've never seen any evidence that natural strength makes it easier to get better in combat... in fact, my experience indicates that it makes it harder, in some ways. I've seen quite a few big strong guys who never learned proper form because simply powering the blow in there with their arm was minimally effective, and who hit a plateau fairly quickly, while the smaller guys who had to learn proper form to land a killing blow in the first place shot past them in ability. And all the "naturals" I've seen, the ones who went from beginner to knight or master in less time than I've been fighting, have been not exceptionally strong, but exceptionally fast. (And, yes, Cain, I can tell the difference between technique and raw natural speed.)

And, ShadowGhost, you might notice that the rules as they stand do let fast guys pull the trigger more frequently than slow ones.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Yeah, I've always linked most combat skills to (natural) Reaction myself. It just makes more sense to me even if it makes improving them easier for combat-oriented characters.

[BitBasher]