Mystic Adept (another thread), House-rule re-write? Options

[DMiller]

I’ve seen a lot of posts both here and on other forums about Mystic Adepts and their power scale. Some argue that the RAW is just about right, others say that the Hot Patch Errata places them about right and there are others somewhere in-between. I have given this a lot of thought and have come up with a re-write of the Mystic Adept, and I thought I’d share my ideas here to see what others think.

******
SR5 Mystic Adept rewrite.

This is to hopefully balance the Mystic Adept back into playability, and make the archetype into something not so over-powered.

These rewrites are based on RAW not the Missions Errata. With this rewrite there are no balanced Hybrid Magic Users, a Hybrid will always favor either spells and mana-based abilities or adept abilities but it is impossible to be balanced.

Change all existing references of “Mystic Adept” in the core book to read “Hybrid Magic User”.
When selecting a “Hybrid Magic User” from the priority list, you must specify it as either a “Mystic Adept” which is an Adept with the ability to cast spells or a “Physical Mage” which is a Spell Caster with some Adept abilities. These categories are broken down below.

As a Mystic Adept follow all of the rules for Adept except that you can also learn to use mana-based magic (Sorcery Group, Enchanting Group, and Conjuring Group). Purchasing and improving skills from these groups cost double the normal Karma and The character’s Magic Attribute counts at half (round down, minimum 1) its current value for use with those skills. Purchasing Spells, Rituals, and Preparations coust double the normal karma (this includes during character creation).

As a Physical Mage follow the existing rules for (what the book currently refers to as a Mystic Adept) with the following exceptions: You gain Power Points equal to your Magic Attribute, whenever you increase your Magic Attribute you gain an additional Power Point for free (so Power Points will equal Magic). All Adept Powers cost double the normal Power Points and you can not have any Adept Powers with a Rating greater than half your Magic Attribute (round down, minimum 1).

Summary:

• Hybrid Magic Users
• Can not project astrally
• Can not use astral perception unless purchased with Power Points
• Purchase their spells/rituals/preparations in the same way as Magicians (except see below)
• Can have any skills from the Enchanting, Sorcery or Conjuring skill groups
• Gain Power Points with each Magic Attribute increase, the same way as Adepts
• Must choose either Mystic Adept or Physical Mage
  
  • Mystic Adepts
    
    • Pay double karma costs for increasing skills from the Enchanting, Sorcery and Conjuring skill groups (this includes points spent during character creation)
    • Pay double karma costs for purchasing Spells, Rituals, and Preparations
    • Use only half their Magic Attribute (round down, minimum 1) for using skills from the Enchanting, Sorcery and Conjuring skill groups
  
  
  • Physical Mages
    
    • Pay double Power Point costs for all Adept Powers (this includes during character creation)
    • Adept Powers with ranks can have no more ranks than half of the Hybrid’s Magic Attribute (round down, minimum 1) (this includes during character creation)

******

So what do you think?

Edit:
Edited to reflect discussed changes note the changed items.

[Chrome Head]

I'd have to give it more thought, but at first glance I mostly like it.

It bugs me that there are two breeds of mystic adepts in this system, and that you have basically increased from 3 to 4 the number of magic user types (though to bring back the idea that mystic adepts can be either more physically oriented, or more magically oriented, isn't a bad thing).

Overall, the balancing seems about right, especially on the physical mage side, which seems like a more balanced approach to the sr5 mysad. The way you have laid it out, I would pretty much never want to play the new "mystic adept", because double karma cost AND half magic is very harsh. I think maybe just considering half magic for all magic tests, spells and effects would be sufficient? What do you think?

Anyway, that's just my initial reaction to what you propose.

[DMiller]

The way you have laid it out, I would pretty much never want to play the new "mystic adept", because double karma cost AND half magic is very harsh. I think maybe just considering half magic for all magic tests, spells and effects would be sufficient? What do you think?

I thought about using only the 1/2 magic, but with reagents I wasn't sure it would be harsh enough. It's been a very long time since I've played a spell caster, and I haven't played one at all in 5th, so maybe that would be enough.

How about 1/2 Magic and double cost for spells/rituals/etc, rather than skills?

-D

[Chrome Head]

I thought about using only the 1/2 magic, but with reagents I wasn't sure it would be harsh enough. It's been a very long time since I've played a spell caster, and I haven't played one at all in 5th, so maybe that would be enough.

How about 1/2 Magic and double cost for spells/rituals/etc, rather than skills?

-D

Yeah I think that could work. Also if it's the reagents you're worried about, just say "mystic adepts" need twice the number of reagents for the same effect.

[Thanee]

The biggest problem I have with this is the same problem Mystic Adepts had in the previous edition.

They can do everything, but only half as good.


My own house rule for Mystic Adepts is somewhat similar, but it cuts their power from a different angle. Closer to can do half as much, but equally good.

Mystic Adepts combine the aspects of Aspected Magician (without Astral Perception) and Adept (no Karma cost for initial PP, but gain only 0.5 PP per point of Magic, plus full PP from Metamagic).

Priorities:

A - Mystic Adept: Magic 6, one Rating 5 Magical skill group, Astral Perception
B - Mystic Adept: Magic 4, one Rating 4 Magical skill group
C - Mystic Adept: Magic 3, one Rating 3 Magical skill

Bye
Thanee

[DMiller]

I do like the idea of the aspected magician thing, I'll have to mull that one over a bit. The gaining .5 PP mer magic is mechanically the same as the double power point cost, so we are on the same page there.

Great ideas guys. Keep 'em coming.

[RHat]

Before getting into the balance of it, I'd say my key issue design-wise would be the inflexibility of it - there's no capacity to decide just where the point between adept and mage that best suits your character is.

As far as the whole half-Magic thing goes, too - is that JUST for dice pools, or for the determination of Force Limits and determination of Stun/Physical for Drain as well?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Honestly, I was always of the opinion that SR4A got it just right.
Played with RAW and FAQ rules. Either worked...

[Thanee]

I do like the idea of the aspected magician thing, I'll have to mull that one over a bit. The gaining .5 PP mer magic is mechanically the same as the double power point cost, so we are on the same page there.

Almost, at least. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The difference is, that you also restrict individual powers to half max. level, while I allow the individual powers at full capacity.

That's, basically, the whole idea behind my approach... you are as good at what you do as a full mage or adept, but you don't get the whole of what they can do, but roughly half of each.

Bye
Thanee

[DMiller]

Before getting into the balance of it, I'd say my key issue design-wise would be the inflexibility of it - there's no capacity to decide just where the point between adept and mage that best suits your character is.

As far as the whole half-Magic thing goes, too - is that JUST for dice pools, or for the determination of Force Limits and determination of Stun/Physical for Drain as well?

The half-magic is for all aspects of using it, not just dice pools. I realize that it is imperfect, but the whole system of the (SR5) mystic adept is imperfect, I'm just trying to put some polish on it.

[DMiller]

Almost, at least. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The difference is, that you also restrict individual powers to half max. level, while I allow the individual powers at full capacity.

That's, basically, the whole idea behind my approach... you are as good at what you do as a full mage or adept, but you don't get the whole of what they can do, but roughly half of each.

Bye
Thanee

Ahh, I see. Some very interesting things to think about. Thanks.

[DMiller]

Honestly, I was always of the opinion that SR4A got it just right.
Played with RAW and FAQ rules. Either worked...

I agree, I liked the way SR4 handled it, and it allowed for a balanced approach. Though I personally have never seen a SR4 Mystic Adept that was played balanced, it was possible. By played balanced I don't mean the split of their magic attribute, I mean actaully played with balance as in equal use of both magical abilities and spell/spirit use. Every MA I saw was either more caster with adept powers or adept with some spells, but never evenly split.

[RHat]

The half-magic is for all aspects of using it, not just dice pools. I realize that it is imperfect, but the whole system of the (SR5) mystic adept is imperfect, I'm just trying to put some polish on it.

See, too me bringing in that halving of casting/summoning force does a lot more harm than good, if only because under the hotfix system they're actually reasonably balanced (far enough behind in Mage ability that it doesn't matter that they keep up in Force). Of course, that's largely due to the increased costs they suffer, but cutting down on their dice pools directly does the job quite well too. Overall it just seems like too much (and really, such a thing was too much in SR4, as well, which is part of why you didn't see true hybrids much there either).

I'll reiterate that I find the lack of granularity to be a bit of an issue too.

[DMiller]

Honestly my biggest problem with the SR5 Mystic Adept, is that they are not adepts... They are Mages with some adept powers. You can't realistically build an Adept with some spells without trying to lobotomize yourself. At least under 4th edition you could have an Adept with some spell ability, but that isn't really possible in 5th. I'm trying to bring back that possibility. The hotfix only makes this situation worse. You have to become a better mage to even have a chance to become a better adept under the hotfix.

Sure as a roleplayer you can take the high maric attribute then buy up your power points and ignore your mage-esque skills, but why would you? You have to initiate and spend your meta-magic on another power point. If you are already doing all the mage-esque things involved in that, you may as well use the ability you are providing yourself with. If you don't that's like a street sam buying a really nice armored jacket and never wearing it. Sure he has it, and it looks really nice in his closet but he's not going to use it because it doesn't fit the concept of a street sam.

See, too me bringing in that halving of casting/summoning force does a lot more harm than good, if only because under the hotfix system they're actually reasonably balanced (far enough behind in Mage ability that it doesn't matter that they keep up in Force). Of course, that's largely due to the increased costs they suffer, but cutting down on their dice pools directly does the job quite well too. Overall it just seems like too much (and really, such a thing was too much in SR4, as well, which is part of why you didn't see true hybrids much there either).

I'll reiterate that I find the lack of granularity to be a bit of an issue too.

Under my proposal, if you want to be a Mage with some adept powers you can be, and you take no negatives for anything mage-like. You also still get a fair number of adept abilities.

[DMiller]

I liked some of Thanee's ideas, but it still seemed that the MA under those rules was a Mage with some Adept ability. So I've re-written my proposal taking into account most everyone's comments... So without further ado version 3:

******
SR5 Mystic Adept rewrite.

This is to hopefully balance the Mystic Adept back into playability, and make the archetype into something not so over-powered.

These rewrites are based on RAW not the Missions Errata. With this rewrite there are no balanced Hybrid Magic Users, a Hybrid will always favor either spells and mana-based abilities or adept abilities but it is impossible to be balanced.

Change all existing references of “Mystic Adept” in the core book to read “Hybrid Magic User”.
When selecting a “Hybrid Magic User” from the priority list, you must specify it as either a “Mystic Adept” which is an Adept with the ability to cast spells or a “Physical Mage” which is a Spell Caster with some Adept abilities. These categories are broken down below.

A Mystic Adept is a combination of an Adept and an Aspected Magician and follows all of the rules for both, except that the Mystic Adept can not use Astral Perception unless it is purchased with Power Points.

As a Physical Mage follow the existing rules for (what the book currently refers to as a Mystic Adept) with the following exceptions: You gain Power Points equal to your Magic Attribute, whenever you increase your Magic Attribute you gain an additional Power Point for free (so Power Points will equal Magic). All Adept Powers cost double the normal Power Points costs.

Summary:
Hybrid Magic Users

• Can not project astrally
• Can not use astral perception unless purchased with Power Points
• Gain Power Points with each Magic Attribute increase, the same way as Adepts
• Must choose either Mystic Adept or Physical Mage
  
  • Mystic Adepts
    
    • Can have skills from the Enchanting, Sorcery or Conjuring skill groups as an Aspected Magician
    • Purchase their spells/rituals/preparations in the same way as Aspected Magicians
  
  
  • Physical Mages
    
    • Pay double Power Point costs for all Adept Powers (this includes during character creation)
    • Can have any skills from the Enchanting, Sorcery or Conjuring skill groups

******

So?

[Surukai]

The problem with the Physical mage is that it has everything a regular Adept has, but also some spells where a pure Adept has just the adept stuff.

This makes no sense. Apected Magician is a very good part and I'll use that if I ever allow a Mystic Adept to be played at the very least to make them not just Mages with powerpoints on top.

Why play an Adept even under your latest proposal? A very very minor advantage in Priority? Mystic Adept needs to be something along -2 Priorities worth of Magic for a pure one. I.e. Magic A (mystic adept) is like Magic C (Aspected Magician) and Magic C (Adept) merged together + a tax on Magic (i.e. it costs +5 karma per Magic to get a Power point except you can pay this at any time, not just character creation.

The +PP only at chargen stupidity is what pidgeon holes them to burn all their starting karma on that since it is a lost opportunity otherwise and that makes very one dimensional characters that are forced to go without advantages, bonus skills or anything else. Let them get the power points at any time they could raise magic, for 5 Karma each.


Even then, it is still stupidly overpowered to have guaranteed 6 hits Increase Reflexes dispel immune, astrally invisible*, always on, drain free Initiative boost as a spell caster. Add adrenaline boost and you have a mage that goes first and has more actions than everyone else without wasting Foci slots for initiative and instead use that for other buffs.

People not understanding this have no concept of how much it costs to have good Initiative with cyberware. Even the spell is a bit of a pain and that is the second best option compared to cyber.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree, I liked the way SR4 handled it, and it allowed for a balanced approach. Though I personally have never seen a SR4 Mystic Adept that was played balanced, it was possible. By played balanced I don't mean the split of their magic attribute, I mean actaully played with balance as in equal use of both magical abilities and spell/spirit use. Every MA I saw was either more caster with adept powers or adept with some spells, but never evenly split.

Sadly, you are not at our table... I have what you refer to as a balanced MysAd. Split is 3 Sorcery and 2 Adept, but I use all aspects of the character pretty equally, unless in a BGC. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Sadly he will be retiring soon. We will be changing to SR5. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Sponge]

Honestly my biggest problem with the SR5 Mystic Adept, is that they are not adepts... They are Mages with some adept powers.

The problem with the Physical mage is that it has everything a regular Adept has, but also some spells where a pure Adept has just the adept stuff.

I think these two comments are basically saying the same thing, and I kind of agree, but at the same time I think the SR5 Mystic Adept is only slightly off the mark. In one sense it's actually a further progression towards "unified magic theory", this time unifying casters and adepts. But the main risk seems to be giving those who would otherwise be straight-up Magicians a bunch of extra Adept Powers "for free" (ignoring the quite modest Karma cost and loss of Astral Projection), and the one tweak I would make to alleviate that risk that is very simple:

Each Power Point purchased counts as 1 spell towards the Logic x2 limit on # of spells learned, with a cap of 6 on the number of spell slots thus used (so that Mystic Adepts are not excessively stunted in growing their powers long-term).

From a balance perspective, aside from a few passive powers that require no skills at all (Mystic Armor, etc) which are handled by adding the above limitation, all of the stuff an Adept does requires different skills from what a Magician does. This means that in order to do well at both roles, there's a significant skill/attribute investment involved. This isn't any different from, say, the Magician or the Street Sam deciding he wants to get into Decking, in my view. It will take a lot of extra investment to become good at a second role with which there's very little overlap, but they aren't mutually exclusive, mechanically speaking.

[Cochise]

Honestly my biggest problem with the SR5 Mystic Adept, is that they are not adepts... They are Mages with some adept powers.

The thing is that "Mystic Adepts" actually were / are fullmages with access to (some) adept powers from the fluff/lore perspective since their introduction in SR2, under SR3 and now again under SR5. Only SR4/SR4A made it sound as if they were adepts with access to (some) spell-slinging and conjuring.

However, the true culprit when it comes to balance in SR5 is indeed the fact that this time around the core mechanics make Mystics full Mages with slapped on adept powers that even double-dip under unerrataed RAW once you leave character generation because of the magic+1 = power point+1 mechanic. The mechanics (particularly once you use the [un]offical Errata) pretty much demand that you max out the Mage part with high magic attribute and get as many power points since opportunity cost - even with the [un]official Errata - is otherwise just too high. As a consequence you get magically "super-powered" but otherwise boring full magicians that just don't have automatic access to astral perception and (currently) no chance of astral projection.

At least under 4th edition you could have an Adept with some spell ability, but that isn't really possible in 5th. I'm trying to bring back that possibility. The hotfix only makes this situation worse. You have to become a better mage to even have a chance to become a better adept under the hotfix.

Then I'd suggest that you completely ignore or rather rewrite the SR5 mechanics in a way that replicates the SR4 (or in fact even SR3) mechanics:

Have Mystic adepts assign each point of magic attribute towards either adept or magician aspect and only allow to gain power points for those magic attribute points that were assigned to the adept aspect. Determine limits and such based upon the respective parts of the aspects within the magic attribute. For all other purposes use full (combined) magic attribute value. Spells for the magician aspect are bought under normal rules with karma both during character generation as well as later progression. This would have several benefits with just minor drawbacks:

Benefits (ignoring stuff like execptional attribute):

1. Your Mystic Adepts could start with any distribution of magician vs. adept aspect you desire ... be it 0:6,1:5, 2:4, 3:3, 4:2, 5:1, 6:0
2. You could get rid of the (then unnecessary) special rules about buying power points with (pseudo-) karma during character generation
3. Mystic adepts would no longer need special rules for increase of magic attribute, since they'd simply follow normal rules for either magician or adept aspect depending on which aspect they raise at a time.
4. Neither unbalanced 6/6 starting characters (maximum would be a combined magic prowess of 6 coming from both aspects) nor double-dipping (RAW) upon increase of magic attribute and certainly not the long-term "gimp effect" that the [un]official Errata creates.
5. Upon magic loss the player would decide which aspect of his magical traits is effected. No uncertaincies whether or not current magic loss affects magician's magic, adept's magic or both.

Drawbacks:

1. A bit more bookkeeping concerning current rating of either magical aspect (e.g. limits)
2. "no Missions with that character"

As an alternative you could even revert to the SR3 mechanics where you mechanically treat the Mystic Adept as a normal adept (overall with little to no difference to the above as far as game balance is concerned). Introduce an adept power called "Magic Talent" which can only be taken by Mystic Adepts and has a power point cost of 1 per level. Each level of "Magic Talent" grants one level of magic attribute for purposes of spellcasting, conjuring, etc. You need at least 1 level of the power in order to use the magician related skills and drain, limits and other magician related values are based upon the level of the "Magic Talent" power. Spells have to be bought normally with karma (both during character generation and later progression). Magic loss would always directly affect standard adept magic attribute and thus power points, so the adept would have to choose which powers are affected. The only difference when compared to the first solution is that within this variant a Mystic Adept could possibly get the Magic Talent at reduced cost once stuff like power point cost reductions due to "Ways" or "voluntary geas" re-enter the scenery.
However this latter variant certainly recreates the contradiction between game mechanics vs. fluff, because it would treat the Mystic Adept as an adept while the fluff still says that he is in fact a mage who channels some of his magic like adepts do.

[RHat]

The whole idea of splitting the magic attribute, quite frankly, rests on completely false assumptions. And I'll point out, as I have before, that while it has it's flaws the hotfix rules for Mystic Adepts are BALANCED - you quite simply cannot be just as good at being a dedicated mage as a mage can, nor just as good at being an adept as an adept can. You can, however, put the two pieces together in such a way that you have the same level of influence.

[DMiller]

I was actually unaware that the fluff had Mystic Adepts as basically Mages with access to some Adept ability. That does put a different spin on things for me. I try to use the world fluff when I can (though our table changes things as needed). Maybe simply using the hotpatch is the best approach after all. At first blush the hotpatch did appear balanced to me, even after some indepth review it seems balanced it just removed the Adept with spells concept, but perhaps that isn't supposed to be a concept.

Thanks for all of the input folks I do appreciate it. Time to think about this more. Feel free to keep discussing, I'm always intrested in finding out others opinions, even when I disagree with them, it's good to have info.

[darthmord]

As I recall from the old days of SR1 & SR2, Mystic Adepts when introduced were regarded as Adepts who could also cast spells. The mechanics of it were rather clear, they were adepts first and foremost but had sacrificed some of their adept abilities in order to pick up mage abilities (and not all of them either). In fact, their mystic part was a Power they chose by devoting Power Points to it. But that's way in the past.

I honestly believe the way SR4A treated them was the best version overall so far. I'm still poring over my SR5 book. I need to start doing an analysis of it against SR4A and see where the rough points are at. Something feels off about SR5 but I cannot quite put my finger on it just by reading the book.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As I recall from the old days of SR1 & SR2, Mystic Adepts when introduced were regarded as Adepts who could also cast spells. The mechanics of it were rather clear, they were adepts first and foremost but had sacrificed some of their adept abilities in order to pick up mage abilities (and not all of them either). In fact, their mystic part was a Power they chose by devoting Power Points to it. But that's way in the past.

I honestly believe the way SR4A treated them was the best version overall so far. I'm still poring over my SR5 book. I need to start doing an analysis of it against SR4A and see where the rough points are at. Something feels off about SR5 but I cannot quite put my finger on it just by reading the book.

If feels off because there is really no sacrifice for the Mystic Adept in SR5. You get the best of both worlds. Full Magic and potentially Full Adept. That is a huge change from SR4A.

[Cochise]

As I recall from the old days of SR1 & SR2, Mystic Adepts when introduced were regarded as Adepts who could also cast spells.

Not quite. IIRC SR1 didn't have "physical mages" at all. SR2 introduced them as part of Awakenings - New Magic in 2057. Their "fluff" stated the following:

Shadowland information:
For decades most folks believed that the abilities and mindset of a physical adept were totally incompatible with the abilities and mindset of a magician. The thinking was, physical adepts "grounded" their magic so strongly in their bodies that they couldn't wrap their minds around the more complex astral manipulations of sorcery and drek like that. The two paths could never meet, or so the idea went.
[..] According to Rainwater, these physical magicians have powers of a physical adept plus some abilities that supposedly only belong to magicians and non-physical adepts. No one's found a real physical magician yet, but lots of people seem to take the idea seriously

"Fluff" that came from the rules section:

Physical magicians are Magic Priority A characters that follow a different path from most other magicians. Rather than devoting all their time to studying ways to control the energies of astral space, physical magicians channel some of their magic ability into improving their physical abilities in the same manner as physical adepts, while honing the rest of their magical talent on traditional magical skills such as Sorcery and Conjuring.
[..]
Because they focus so much of their talent on the physical aspect of magic, physical magicians begin without access to astral space. They may purchase and use the asept power of astral perception normally, but can never use astral projection.

The game mechanics demanded that they split their magic attribute points between magician and adept aspects (pretty much like in SR4). Despite their fluff description they were only required to have a minimum of 1 point towards magician aspect and overall the mechanics worked primarily as adepts.

SR3 fluff told pretty much the same. The rules were more integrated, by making the magician aspect an adept power. However the wording of certain additional rules on initiation was wide open to interpretation (and the most common one heavily gimped physical mages).

SR4 fluff changed that by stating:

Some adepts choose to learn less than their maximum number of adept powers, preserving some of their Power Points for spellcasting or conjuring. Such magicians are still called adepts by most magicians, though other adepts may refer to the character as following the “Magician’s
Way.”

So this time around they were more adepts than mages according to fluff. The rules again worked more like in SR2 with a split magic attribute and they got rid of most of the rule exceptions (particularly as far as initiation and magic increase as well as acquisition of additional power points were concerned).

SR5 doesn't provide too much fluff information beyond the fact that Mystic Adepts are hybrids that can make use of both magician and adept aspects. However on the mechanics level their magic attribute focuses mainly on the magician aspect and power points are just (somewhat arbitrarily) thrown into the mix (with obvious balancing issues that required hot-fixing for Missions [the German rules use those fixes as official Errata]).

I honestly believe the way SR4A treated them was the best version overall so far.

Overall I'll second that notion, because the SR4/A variant used the least amount of special rules.

_____________________________________

The whole idea of splitting the magic attribute, quite frankly, rests on completely false assumptions.

And those "completely false assumptions" would exactly be which ones? Please be more specific when making such bold claims and please try to remember that this idea was in fact used - with variations in details - throughout SR2, SR3, SR4/A and worked quite well (despite the balance controversies during SR3 that stemmed from a flawed, but rather common rule interpretation).

And I'll point out, as I have before, that while it has it's flaws the hotfix rules for Mystic Adepts are BALANCED

I'm inclined to say "bullshit" here. The hotfix rules are by no means "balanced" since they don't actually address the flaws that have been introduced within the character generation rules and it even creates additional inconsistencies.

1. The part of the hotfix that limits power point gain to forgoing metamagic establishes the notion that after character generation a power point is equivalent to a metamagical technique for mystic adepts => a power point is thus closely connected to initiation and in turn to the cost of initiation. This mechanic can only balance metamagic vs. power point when comparing standard magicians and mystic adepts if the mystic adept start with 0 power points, just like an uninitiated magician. Unfortunately the character generation rules do allow a mystic adept to start with 6 power points (even under hotfixed / errataed power point cost during chargen), so in a direct comparison of magical prowess a mystical adept has the advantage of up to 6 initiations at significantly lowered costs that a standard mage can never ever compensate.
2. However, the alleged equivalence of metamagic and power point when comparing mages to mystics is dubious, since in far too many situations a metamagical technique overall is more powerful than the powers that a (single) power point will provide and some (if not "many") adept powers can even be replicated either by gear, cyber/bio or spells. A truly "balanced" mechanic would require that these two options are indeed in a form of equilibrum across the board, since the mystic adept has the same base opportunity cost as a standard mage (when aiming for identical starting value for magic) and once the karma-based chargen returns, we might even see the return of higher base cost.
3. Things get really hazy when looking at mages vs. mystic vs. standard adept that haven't maximized on magic attribute / magic attribute plus power points / power point during chargen. Let's have a mage with magic attribute of 4 and a mystic with magic 3 and 1 power point and an adept with magic 4 (=4 power points). Due to the fact that 1 power point technically also equals 1 point of magic attribute within this comparison, all three characters have a base "magical prowess" of 4. Or mage want's to increase his magical power base by inceasing magic to 5 (=25 karma). Works quite easy, has a clearly defined cost. Same for the standard adept (again 25 karma). Our mystic adept however faces two options: Either he increases his power base on the adept side or he increases his magical aspect . This will require him to initiate at a cost of 13 karma for the power point or raise magic with 20 karma. I'm certainly not going to call that "balanced" in either case.
4. A full comparison of power point value between standard adept and mystic doesn't work out either, since the standard adept still gains power points via increase of magic attribute. So again no real balance here.

- you quite simply cannot be just as good at being a dedicated mage as a mage can, nor just as good at being an adept as an adept can.

The fun part is: The current ruleset - even hotfixed - certainly allows a mystic to be as good as a dedicated mage, depending on how you value up to 6 power points (one of which can be used for the lacking astral perception) vs. the lack of astral projection.

[RHat]

And those "completely false assumptions" would exactly be which ones? Please be more specific when making such bold claims and please try to remember that this idea was in fact used - with variations in details - throughout SR2, SR3, SR4/A and worked quite well (despite the balance controversies during SR3 that stemmed from a flawed, but rather common rule interpretation).

Frankly, I didn't want to launch into the full discussion if there wasn't at least some interest in the subject first - so I tested the waters a bit, which might have been rude of me. Apologies.

It's the essential structural problem of designing hybrids - having half the power of one character and half the power of another character seems intuitively like it should add up to the game influence of a full character, but in actual fact it doesn't. In general, this is because the abilities of a full character work together to create the level of influence they have, and that the interaction between power and influenced would be better described as curved than linear (ie, a character who is twice as powerful has more than twice the game influence -the easiest way to look at this is to look at what happens in a combat focused game when one character is twice as powerful as the others - not only does he contribute more to taking out the enemies, but the enemies and encounters themselves have to be altered to account for this anomaly, including things like tougher enemies and specific counters).

In SR, there is also the fact that while the Mystic Adept gets half the powers of the Mage and Adept, they still have the same skill and attribute allotments as a Mage (and fewer than an Adept) and dramatically less Karma. They have to spread this across both sides, resulting in worse skills and attributes for both their Mage and Adept sides, as well as having less by way of supporting gear/qualities/foci. In the end, creating a balanced environment with a split magic would require a step away from "here's the magic a Mage would have, and you have to split it between the two". Something like "here's your base magic for both sides, and here's some points to allocate between them up to a maximum of N" - and then have them be raised with Special Attribute Points separately. The trick is finding the exact point where you have a properly balanced environment.

The fun part is: The current ruleset - even hotfixed - certainly allows a mystic to be as good as a dedicated mage, depending on how you value up to 6 power points (one of which can be used for the lacking astral perception) vs. the lack of astral projection.

Untrue - Power Points cannot make you a better Magician, and the Karma expenditures wind up putting you notably behind. 50 Karma spent directly on being a better Mage creates a much better Mage than 30 Karma on Power Points and 20 Karma on Mage stuff.