[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Untrue - Power Points cannot make you a better Magician, and the Karma expenditures wind up putting you notably behind. 50 Karma spent directly on being a better Mage creates a much better Mage than 30 Karma on Power Points and 20 Karma on Mage stuff.

But that depends heavily upon your character's design premise...
Even in SR4A, where you split Magic, a well built Mystic Adept can have far more Influence in the game than either a Straight Mage or Adept (this I know from Experience).
After all, BETTER is highly subjective. It all depends upon Concept more than just straight POWER.
POWER does NOT equal BETTER. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bigity]

In other words. It's not the size of the Magic attribute, it's how you use it.

[RHat]

But that depends heavily upon your character's design premise...
Even in SR4A, where you split Magic, a well built Mystic Adept can have far more Influence in the game than either a Straight Mage or Adept (this I know from Experience).
After all, BETTER is highly subjective. It all depends upon Concept more than just straight POWER.
POWER does NOT equal BETTER. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You're now arguing in a different context than the statement you're responding to was intended - Cochise's statement, at least in so far as I interpret it, is saying that the Mystic Adept would be a better Mage, which is flatly untrue.

And I'm just gonna point out TJ Fallacy again - your table seems to be awesome enough to even out normal issues with level of influence. In general, however, where influence (I) is a function of power (P) and the frequency of which situations within the set occur (F), I(P, F) does not equal I(P/2, F*2) unless (a) you're the only one with influence in the set or (b) the others with influence in the set are not up to their potential.

[Chrome Head]

Untrue - Power Points cannot make you a better Magician, and the Karma expenditures wind up putting you notably behind. 50 Karma spent directly on being a better Mage creates a much better Mage than 30 Karma on Power Points and 20 Karma on Mage stuff.

I agree with everything else wholeheartedly, specifically with how power scales non-linearly as karma/resources/attributes/whatever is spent on a character. But I don't agree with that last statement.

The mystic adept can spend power points on being a better mage. Initiative is one obvious example. You get undispellable wired reflex 3-equivalent (or focus with improved reflexes which can be dispelled and you have to spend money and karma to bond, as well as the 5 karma for the spell which you probably don't want anymore) for 20 karma, leaving another 0.5PP on another goodie. With 30 karma left, you can still get say a mentor spirit and focused concentration 6, if it pleases you, making a damn dangerous magician. This 20 karma also freed up perhaps 1 or 2 points you might have put into Reaction otherwise. So.. yeah hard to find anything else that beats this 20 karma spent on "non mage related stuff".

Apart from initiative, there is a number of things that can be useful. Of course one might feel forced to spend 5 karma for the 1 PP on astral perception (not very expensive if you ask me). Enhanced perception is quite good for 0.5PP, and definitely very useful for mage stuff (+1 on assensing and perception might free up skill slots for you). And a number of other powers can be really useful for a mage without being directly a "mage thing", and require no additional specialization in non-magical things. Combat sense, danger sense, mystic armor (which can be seen as reducing how many attributes to put in body to some extent), pain resistance, and spell resistance all come to mind.

At the end of the day, I fail to see how you can spend these karma points to improve your magical abilities, in a way that will make the regular mage so much better at magic than the mystic adept with his power points at the cost of 5 karma per point. Additional nuyen can be useful for buying extra goodies, but really what you can get for 10k hardly compares to a power point. Similarly for qualities for the most part. Skills you can often get a better equivalent with power points spent on skill equivalents (which also have the advantage to be a bonus instead of increasing the skill itself, and thus making future karma expenditures smaller). Same goes for attributes which can be increased (the physical ones) at 1PP or 5 karma per attribute point, definitely hard to beat, no? And if there's something so valuable that it makes you a better mage more so than 5 karma on a PP, then just don't spend the full 30 karma that you are allowed to.

So yeah, I really strongly disagree that spending power points doesn't improve your magical abilities, or at least doesn't increase your influence in the game as much. I would argue that it is actually the opposite.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You're now arguing in a different context than the statement you're responding to was intended - Cochise's statement, at least in so far as I interpret it, is saying that the Mystic Adept would be a better Mage, which is flatly untrue.

And I'm just gonna point out TJ Fallacy again - your table seems to be awesome enough to even out normal issues with level of influence. In general, however, where influence (I) is a function of power (P) and the frequency of which situations within the set occur (F), I(P, F) does not equal I(P/2, F*2) unless (a) you're the only one with influence in the set or (b) the others with influence in the set are not up to their potential.

Unfair - You cannot resort to Algebraic formulas to prove a point. I call foul.
You do have a point, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[RHat]

I agree with everything else wholeheartedly, specifically with how power scales non-linearly as karma/resources/attributes/whatever is spent on a character. But I don't agree with that last statement.

The mystic adept can spend power points on being a better mage. Initiative is one obvious example. You get undispellable wired reflex 3-equivalent (or focus with improved reflexes which can be dispelled and you have to spend money and karma to bond, as well as the 5 karma for the spell which you probably don't want anymore) for 20 karma, leaving another 0.5PP on another goodie. With 30 karma left, you can still get say a mentor spirit and focused concentration 6, if it pleases you, making a damn dangerous magician. This 20 karma also freed up perhaps 1 or 2 points you might have put into Reaction otherwise. So.. yeah hard to find anything else that beats this 20 karma spent on "non mage related stuff".

Apart from initiative, there is a number of things that can be useful. Of course one might feel forced to spend 5 karma for the 1 PP on astral perception (not very expensive if you ask me). Enhanced perception is quite good for 0.5PP, and definitely very useful for mage stuff (+1 on assensing and perception might free up skill slots for you). And a number of other powers can be really useful for a mage without being directly a "mage thing", and require no additional specialization in non-magical things. Combat sense, danger sense, mystic armor (which can be seen as reducing how many attributes to put in body to some extent), pain resistance, and spell resistance all come to mind.

At the end of the day, I fail to see how you can spend these karma points to improve your magical abilities, in a way that will make the regular mage so much better at magic than the mystic adept with his power points at the cost of 5 karma per point. Additional nuyen can be useful for buying extra goodies, but really what you can get for 10k hardly compares to a power point. Similarly for qualities for the most part. Skills you can often get a better equivalent with power points spent on skill equivalents (which also have the advantage to be a bonus instead of increasing the skill itself, and thus making future karma expenditures smaller). Same goes for attributes which can be increased (the physical ones) at 1PP or 5 karma per attribute point, definitely hard to beat, no? And if there's something so valuable that it makes you a better mage more so than 5 karma on a PP, then just don't spend the full 30 karma that you are allowed to.

So yeah, I really strongly disagree that spending power points doesn't improve your magical abilities, or at least doesn't increase your influence in the game as much. I would argue that it is actually the opposite.

A mystic adept cannot spend Power Points on being a better Mage. However, many types of mages are not just mages - for example, a Mystic Adept CAN spend Power Points on the combat side of a Combat Mage, which would be a hybrid. And a hybrid should be where you look at the Mystic Adept first - and still, they'll be behind on magical skills.

What happens is that you have the dedicated mage (and many hybrid mages built as a full Magiciain) use their Karma to get things like a Power Focus, qualities (Mentor Spirit, Focused Concentration, and so on), more spells... There's a lot for a mage to spend Karma on. I've worked it out on here before, and in essence the mage winds up a few dice ahead in everything and has an easier time sustaining spells (and while adept powers can take over for some of that, the inflexibility of not being able to switch it out for other spells is a substantial drawback).

[RHat]

Unfair - You cannot resort to Algebraic formulas to prove a point. I call foul.
You do have a point, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Would you prefer lambda calculus? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Would you prefer lambda calculus? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Even worse...
No Math is my preferred argumentative standpoint. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Chrome Head]

A mystic adept cannot spend Power Points on being a better Mage. However, many types of mages are not just mages - for example, a Mystic Adept CAN spend Power Points on the combat side of a Combat Mage, which would be a hybrid. And a hybrid should be where you look at the Mystic Adept first - and still, they'll be behind on magical skills.

What happens is that you have the dedicated mage (and many hybrid mages built as a full Magiciain) use their Karma to get things like a Power Focus, qualities (Mentor Spirit, Focused Concentration, and so on), more spells... There's a lot for a mage to spend Karma on. I've worked it out on here before, and in essence the mage winds up a few dice ahead in everything and has an easier time sustaining spells (and while adept powers can take over for some of that, the inflexibility of not being able to switch it out for other spells is a substantial drawback).

You make a good point, but I don't think it holds if we look at specifics. Sure what I describe seems to help combat mages more than other mage concepts. But in the end, unless your mage does not see any action in combat (strange game that would be), it will help him. Getting a second and/or third pass of initiative, or increasing your attributes, or skills, can all help increase the influence of the character in a meaningful way, which can usually be equivalent to the karma loss somewhere else. To take a specific example, removing focused concentration in exchange for power points can often be a good deal. Can you really claim that a mystic adept would have less influence on the game than a full magician which is the exact copy, but has focused concentration 5 instead of 4 power points?

Of course it depends on concepts and what you try to accomplish, but for most full magician concepts, I think it's not hard to find a chunk of karma that would be better spent on adept powers instead, even including the cost of losing astral perception/projection. In most cases, I can probably make that change with no loss of dice in magical skills. At the very least, I don't see how the overall change would be a significantly reduced influence on the game as a whole.

Again, I think that in many cases, the mystic adept is actually better off.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You make a good point, but I don't think it holds if we look at specifics. Sure what I describe seems to help combat mages more than other mage concepts. But in the end, unless your mage does not see any action in combat (strange game that would be), it will help him. Getting a second and/or third pass of initiative, or increasing your attributes, or skills, can all help increase the influence of the character in a meaningful way, which can usually be equivalent to the karma loss somewhere else. To take a specific example, removing focused concentration in exchange for power points can often be a good deal. Can you really claim that a mystic adept would have less influence on the game than a full magician which is the exact copy, but has focused concentration 5 instead of 4 power points?

Of course it depends on concepts and what you try to accomplish, but for most full magician concepts, I think it's not hard to find a chunk of karma that would be better spent on adept powers instead, even including the cost of losing astral perception/projection. In most cases, I can probably make that change with no loss of dice in magical skills. At the very least, I don't see how the overall change would be a significantly reduced influence on the game as a whole.

Again, I think that in many cases, the mystic adept is actually better off.

I agree, as this has been exactly how it has tracked in our games. Will be interesting to see how it plays out in SR5 over time, though.

[RHat]

You make a good point, but I don't think it holds if we look at specifics. Sure what I describe seems to help combat mages more than other mage concepts. But in the end, unless your mage does not see any action in combat (strange game that would be), it will help him. Getting a second and/or third pass of initiative, or increasing your attributes, or skills, can all help increase the influence of the character in a meaningful way, which can usually be equivalent to the karma loss somewhere else. To take a specific example, removing focused concentration in exchange for power points can often be a good deal. Can you really claim that a mystic adept would have less influence on the game than a full magician which is the exact copy, but has focused concentration 5 instead of 4 power points?

Of course it depends on concepts and what you try to accomplish, but for most full magician concepts, I think it's not hard to find a chunk of karma that would be better spent on adept powers instead, even including the cost of losing astral perception/projection. In most cases, I can probably make that change with no loss of dice in magical skills. At the very least, I don't see how the overall change would be a significantly reduced influence on the game as a whole.

Again, I think that in many cases, the mystic adept is actually better off.

It's not that the dedicated mage sees no combat - it's that given the choice between spending substantial Karma for something that's only good for combat, versus spending it for something that can be used in more situations and is also good for combat, the dedicated mage is better off with the latter.

And Mystic Adepts might be better off for hybrid concepts - but that's exactly where they should be better off. If the hybrid option isn't better for building a hybrid concept, something is wrong.

[Chrome Head]

It's not that the dedicated mage sees no combat - it's that given the choice between spending substantial Karma for something that's only good for combat, versus spending it for something that can be used in more situations and is also good for combat, the dedicated mage is better off with the latter.

And how does he do that? Specifically, how do you spend 50 karma where it's not possible to take away 15-30 karma without diminishing significantly the mage's magical power. I'm not saying there's no sacrifice, just that it's possible and less or equally costly than the value of what you get in return.

Say you want a power focus 3 (18 karma), you can still get a mentor (5 karma) and 5 power points (25 karma). Pretty good deal if you ask me. Very powerful magician. Okay, you could use 14 karma to increase spellcasting to 7, for instance, and buy 2 more spells. Is that going to give you more influence on the game over taking improved reflexes 3 and spell resistance 3, for example? Not to mention that those 24 karma can be spent later, whereas the power points are not something you can ever get otherwise.

[RHat]

And how does he do that? Specifically, how do you spend 50 karma where it's not possible to take away 15-30 karma without diminishing significantly the mage's magical power. I'm not saying there's no sacrifice, just that it's possible and less or equally costly than the value of what you get in return.

Say you want a power focus 3 (18 karma), you can still get a mentor (5 karma) and 5 power points (25 karma). Pretty good deal if you ask me. Very powerful magician. Okay, you could use 14 karma to increase spellcasting to 7, for instance, and buy 2 more spells. Is that going to give you more influence on the game over taking improved reflexes 3 and spell resistance 3, for example? Not to mention that those 24 karma can be spent later, whereas the power points are not something you can ever get otherwise.

For Magic A, Attributes/Skills B/C, Resources D, Human E:

- 10 Karma to Nuyen
- 18 Karma to bond Power Focus (28)
- 5 Karma for Mentor Spirit (33)
- 12 Karma for Focused Concentration 3 (45)
- 3 Karma for Quick Healer (48)

You're already 28 Karma deep just for the most significant piece. FC and QH can be very easily switched for other options, as well. Trimming 15 Karma from there You simply cannot avoid that 10 Karma to Nuyen, as you need that remaining 16k nuyen for a Fake SIN and licences, non-terrible commlink, armour, reagents, and the rest of the essential kit. You COULD swap FC and QH for Power Points, but FC is far more useful to a dedicated mage than anything you'd get for 3 Power Points - the loss of flexibility and longer Drain healing times are big issues.

[Cochise]

You're now arguing in a different context than the statement you're responding to was intended - Cochise's statement, at least in so far as I interpret it, is saying that the Mystic Adept would be a better Mage, which is flatly untrue.

Which would be a misinterpretation on your behalf. My statement says that - depending on exact number of power points bought during chargen - a Mystic Adept will be "as good as" a "dedicated" magician, because of two things:

His relative raw magical power is equal to (or even slightly better than) a normal mage's raw magical power ... still depending on how you as a player individually value access to astral projection vs. the benefit of up to 6 "metamagical techniques" and how "big" the differences in magical skill levels can really be for the standard mage who uses 30 of his chargen karma for magical skills / positive magical qualities instead of power points.
Because after chargen both standard mage and Mystic adept can progress 100% identically (=equal dedication).

One of the major issues with your overall argumentation is that you try to compare mage and mystic on an "academic" level as if the setting of the game (Shadowrun) was of no importance at all. So while you correctly infer that adept powers don't necessarily provide a direct boost to the mystic's "magician" aspect you neglect the fact that he will benefit from these powers within the environment that he operates in ... both when trying to make use of his magical skills and when doing "other stuff".

Oh and there certainly are power's that will add to / boost his prowess when compared to a standard mage:

1. Astral Perception will recreate a normal mage's advantage at target acquisition for purposes of spellcasting
2. Improved Sense (Low Light / IR-Sight) can improve target acquisition for purposes of spellcasting for mystics - depending on race - without the need for special gear / implants.
3. Improved ability dice that are added to the skill level of the "mundane" skill the mage uses for the metamagic "Centering" .. Further improved Drain resistance
4. While a magician will not resort to direct astral combat that often, astral combat is part of his magical skillset. Critical Strike (Astral Combat) will improve a Mystic in that area (provided he has also gained Astral Perception)
5. Killing Hands: Again an improvement of astral combat
6. Improved Reflexes provide permanent reaction / initiative improvement that don't have to be cast, cannot be dispelled, removes the need for sustaining a spell (and should sustaining foci return, their drawbacks [e.g. when dealing with wards] will be negated as well)
7. Adrenaline Boost and Combat Sense will similarly have positive effects on use of magical skills under combat conditions (which are a "default assumption" of the game's setting)
8. Pain resistance will remove wound based modifiers when casting spells or performing other acts of magic - again as a passive, non-invasive version
9. Spell resistance: Directly adds to the ability to use Spell Defense for protecting the mystic himself from incomming hostile spells

And those are just the powers from the current core rules.
Potential candidates from SR4 are:

1. Adept metamagic Atunement (Item) on a weapon focus will provide additional prowess when engaging in astral combat
2. Adept metamagic Cognition will allow to temporarily boost the respective Drain attribute for the use of magical skills
3. Cloak will add to Spell Defense against active Detection spells for the mystic
4. Counterstrike: Again an improvement in astral combat
5. Distance Strike will again be open to interpretation ... but again: a potential improvement in astral combat
6. Iron Will: Also directly adds to the ability of using Spell Defense against certain spell types for the mystic himself.
7. Multitasking provided an additional free action => You could declare "Multiple Attacks" plus "Centering" (provided that you have acquired that metamagic) and still cast without having to resort to Reckless Spellcasting ... Obviously this will (again) be subject of debate due to the "when not directly involved in combat" limitation and no clear definition what constitutes a "direct involvement".
8. Mystic Armor + Elemental Resistance: Again adds to the Spell Defense against hostile spells with elemental effects for the mystic himself
9. Heightened Concentration: Ignoring situational dice pool modifiers for the use of any magical skill.
10. Supernatural Toughness: additional boxes on stun monitor has implications for Drain / Reckless Spellcasting
11. Indomitable Will: Again additional dice for purposes of defending against Spells for the Mystic himself
12. "Magician's Way" -> Sorcerous Parry: Directly increases the Counterspelling skill. And it will certainly be funny to see the debates concerning Mystics being able to choose other ways and thus gaining access to way specific powers that can incease Drain relevant attributes like Intuition or Logic

I'm certainly not saying that all of these things have an opportunity cost that is worthwhile. This is just about showing that adept power can and will affect the use of magical skills both directly as well as indirectly.

And just to add another "what if" scenario: What if we get to see the return of the "Limited Astral Projection" metamagic from SR3 (SotA'64) for Mystic Adepts? Then any adept power that affects combat and isn't preculded from usage in astral combat will directly effect astral combat further. Additionally one could certainly debate whether or not the use of any adept power during a metaplanar journey (quest) is also a boost to the magician aspect.

[RHat]

Which would be a misinterpretation on your behalf. My statement says that - depending on exact number of power points bought during chargen - a Mystic Adept will be "as good as" a "dedicated" magician, because of two things:

I need to ask you to define what you mean here, because I'm not sure we're having the same discussion... And while we're at it, I'm wondering what concepts you think the Mystic Adept should be better for.

[Cochise]

I need to ask you to define what you mean here, because I'm not sure we're having the same discussion...

~hmm~ I'm a bit at a loss here myself, because I think it's rather obvious what I was talking about: Raw magical potential under the perspective that a Mystic Adept can shift some of his magical potential as magician towards adept powers. Magic attribute and power points are basic mechanics for purposes of raw magical potential in either case. Since it was your claim that the (hotfixed) rules are (overall) "balanced" the shift between those assets has to be compared with regards to the following aspects:

1. Loss of automatic access to astral perception, (currently permanent) loss of astral projection and a skill / positive quality difference of up to 30 karma vs. the gain of up to 6 power points that most definitely can influence how and when magic skills can be used within the typical game setting. The question there is: Are the obtainable benefits truly equal, lower or higher when compared to what a normal mage gets when spending the 30 karma exclusively on magical skill levels and magical qualities? I have seen no proof from you that would indicate that such a shift is in fact "balanced" (more or less equal). And we haven't even touched upon a comparison of Mystic Adept vs. standard Adept.
2. The relative worth (and thus the "balance") of those up to 6 power points a Mystic Adept can have when looking at the fact that under hotfixed rules on a strictly mechanicl level, each power point has the worth of one single metamagic post character generation. This get's even more important when considering the fact that previous editions had expanded chargen rules where initiation was allowed as part of the chargen process and we're likely going to see that again in SR5.
3. The post chargen evaluation of the cost of magic attribute increase (the magician's direct increase of raw magical potential) vs. the cost of getting an additional power point (one of the two options of how a Mystic can expand his raw magical potential). Mechanically the increase of magic attribute is usually far more expensive than initiation cost, so this would indicate an imbalance towards the standard magician. However the need to initate (and thus enter the realms of refined magic potential a.k.a. metamagic) in order to be able to expand a basic aspect does look imbalanced towards the Mystic adept. I just can bring myself to think that two imbalanced aspects nullify each other and thus create an overall "balanced" experience and I certainly wouldn't call it "good game design", even if it were (somewhat) balanced.

And while we're at it, I'm wondering what concepts you think the Mystic Adept should be better for.

My demand from a game design perspective would be that concepts with Mystic Adepts should be "different" and not (clearly) "better" (or "weaker") because the latter would indicate a serious "imbalance". So my objections with the current implementation are not related to the prospect of Mystics being better (or worse) for actual implementations of specific character concepts, but more with the mechanical inconsistancies, the degree and number of "special rules" necessary to create a (perceived) balance when compared to the base concepts (adept / magician) and - last but not least - the differences in how these magical archetypes vary in their ingame self-perception when looking at what they have to do in order to expand their respective basic power potential.

That's not saying that a Mystic Adept couldn't or shouldn't be "better suited" for the actual implementations of certain character concepts or "Magicians" being better suited for other concepts. I firmly believe that Mystic Adepts can and should be better when trying to implement some very specific variants of "combat mage" ("Ninjas" come to mind here) or "mind-twisting faces" while clearly losing out against concepts that focus more on access to astral space / interaction with the "spirit world" (e.g. astral recon, exploration of deeper magical knowledge via metaplanar projection).

[RHat]

Ah. I'm not, frankly, convinced that raw magical potential, as you've defined it, measured anything that's actually useful to this discussion. To begin with, looking only at the Magic attribute and number of power points misses details like skills, qualities, and equipment.

And I would submit that Mystic Adepts should be better for hybrid concepts - a set in which I would include the Combat Mage, in so far as it is defined as a character blending combat ability and magical ability.

A balanced and varied environment does not demand that options A and B always be equal on the relevant measure (my measure of choice being influence); where A is better than B as often as and to the same degree that B is better than A, balance holds.

[Cochise]

Ah. I'm not, frankly, convinced that raw magical potential, as you've defined it, measured anything that's actually useful to this discussion. To begin with, looking only at the Magic attribute and number of power points misses details like skills, qualities, and equipment.

Magic attribute and Magic attribute plus Power Points are the core mechanic and defining factor for magicians and adepts. So I would expect this to be true for a third magical archetype who explicitly is a combination of magician and adept (p. 69 explicitly states that: "Mystic adepts are a combination of magicians and adepts."). So if balance is an actual design goal this core mechanic must work out before secondary stuff like allowed skills, skill ratings and limits should be adressed and on that level individual character concepts are of no interest at all. Additional magical qualities and particularly equipment are not an issue either when looking at core balance if we can create situations where those qualities and the equipment are in fact "equal". And with the current ruleset that is possible (even though it somewhat breaks the idea of the Mystic Adept concept in the beginning) for magicians and mystic adepts:

Create two magically active characters with identical priority distribution, identical skills and identical qualities. Now for purposes of making the issues I see with the current system easier to spot, let's further assume that we use the following priorities:

Magic B (=>magic attribute=4), attributes A, skills C, ressources D, race E and we don't raise magic any further during chargen. One is a standard magician, the other one is a mystic adept who simply doesn't buy any power points during character generation. Magic attribute and all derived values will be identical, except for the opportunity cost of being a mystic adept:

1. Currently the permanent loss of astral projection
2. Temporary loss of access to astral perception and the subsequent options for target acquisition via astral perception

Looking "balanced" for now? Pretty much. Now both of our characters have two options of increasing their core magical potentials. If both raise their current magic rating we'll not have any balancing issues. If both of them decide to initiate and just take the same metamagic there won't be a balance issue either. The following situations however will have balancing implications:

1. Magician raises magic attribute whereas the mystic adept initiates and takes his first power point. In this situation both of them have raised their basic magical potential. The cost difference is at solid 12 karma. Now the questions are: Are the resulting benefits for either character balanced on a strictly mechanical level against that difference? Is it truely fitting with the lore that - apart from the obvious cost difference - the mystic adept must engage with an activity like initiation in order to increase something that is supposed to be part of his rather basic magical existance?
   
   I'm not too convinced of that the answers to these questions really should be "yes".
2. Magician and mystic both opt for initiation where the magician learns a metamagic and the mystic takes his first power point. Cost wise this time there's no difference, but with the exception of taking the astral perception power it's rather doubtful that the effects of metamagic vs. adept powers taken balance with each other.

Now we take a slightly different approach with the following stipulation: We don't spend ressources identically but instead shift some of the posssible skill levels / magical qualities of the magician build into power points within the mystic adept build. We're not even aiming for the full 4 power points (power points are capped by magic attribute) but rather just 1 power point that we invest into astral perception. Now opportunity cost for being a mystic is changed to

1. Loss of astral projection
2. A not clearly definable loss of skill levels / qualities / karma to nuyen since we'd have to shift 5 chargen karma to the power point. However losing 10k Nuyen (derived from your chargen example) doesn't necessarily look too dramatic, since ingame Nuyen (in by implication equipment) are easier to come by than karma.

The above problems with progress remain the same and now we additionally face the situation that our mystic adept now has something that is clearly worth a metamagic without even being an initiate.

But so far we have only looked into a direct comparison of magician vs. mystic adept. Now since p. 69 established that the mystic adept hybrid is in fact a combination of adept and magician with access to all skills and powers of either magical archetype with the known exceptions, we now have to ask, why it's mechanically impossible to start as an mystic adept whose current powers replicate a "standard adept" and his development as magician is postponed until after chargen or at least have a mystic adept with a (seriously) bigger adept aspect than magician aspect? Not necessarily a balance issue, but certainly something I'd call "bad design" when compared to the freedom provided by previous editions.

And now let's come back to that "flawed" concept of split "magic attribute" for mystic adepts: The "fun" part there is even SR5 mechanically does have that distinction, since on the core design level you could replace the term "magic attribute" with "qi attribute" for adepts in every instance without changing how the mechanics work for the adept. And using "magician attribute" and "qi attribute" for the respective aspects and "combining" it into an overall "magic attribute" would still work perfectly for a "combined" magical archetype and it would certainly help with avoiding balance issues and the design traps that we're seeing now.

And I would submit that Mystic Adepts should be better for hybrid concepts - a set in which I would include the Combat Mage, in so far as it is defined as a character blending combat ability and magical ability.

Which is pretty much identical to what I said in the last paragraph of my previous posting. So to me that's not the the area where the balance problems of the current rules lie (neither RAW, nor the hotfix variant).

Final note: Changing rules just for the sake of changing them isn't good design and I still don't see any real advantage with the changed ruleset on mystic adepts.

[Chrome Head]

@RHat

I see your point and I agree with a part of it. You say the mystic adept is not as potent magically than the pure mage. I agree and you made a valid argument. But that's not really the whole issue under debate. I'm saying the difference is small enough that the adept powers more than make up for it. And you have not convinced me otherwise. You have to look at the whole set of possible scenarios to determine if the character has more influence (to use your word) on the game, not just his magical abilities. Since we can't seem to agree on this and we've both explained our position, I think I'll just have to agree to disagree at this time.

[Shinobi Killfist]

For Magic A, Attributes/Skills B/C, Resources D, Human E:

- 10 Karma to Nuyen
- 18 Karma to bond Power Focus (28)
- 5 Karma for Mentor Spirit (33)
- 12 Karma for Focused Concentration 3 (45)
- 3 Karma for Quick Healer (48)

You're already 28 Karma deep just for the most significant piece. FC and QH can be very easily switched for other options, as well. Trimming 15 Karma from there You simply cannot avoid that 10 Karma to Nuyen, as you need that remaining 16k nuyen for a Fake SIN and licences, non-terrible commlink, armour, reagents, and the rest of the essential kit. You COULD swap FC and QH for Power Points, but FC is far more useful to a dedicated mage than anything you'd get for 3 Power Points - the loss of flexibility and longer Drain healing times are big issues.

For Magic A, Attributes/Skills B/C, Resources D, Human E:
25 karma PP
12 karma power focus
5 karma mentor spirit
4 karma focused concentration 1
3 karma quick healer

So the pure mage is what 1 die better at magic, sure his focused concentration is 2 higher but if you don't go in full you are reagent cheesing it anyways. So reagent cheese 3 or reagent cheese 1 i dont see the big deal. If you are using it just for attribute boosts, drop quick healer and get it to 2 and it handles your dump stats fine.

so really 1 die better for 5 power points, is one die better really a better mage?

The hotfix makes it less unbalanced, but the mystic adept is broken at the core when they allowed them to double up the magic attribute in character creation.

[Falconer]

DMiller:
I don't really like the rules you've posted at all. They do very little to address the core problems. The designers of 5e were on crack when they did Mystic Adepts and very little can be done to fix this. I see you're trying to fix things... such as allowing a mage focus or an adept focus in the adept instead of being forced to be a magician focused adept. But I don't think your proposed rules help much on this score. Especially the advancement rules! No one should ever get a 'twofer' on magic/power points. This is the core of what's broken in the 5e Mystic adepts. Yet this is exactly what you do... even if it might be more properly be called a 1.5'er instead of twofer with your doubling of half the costs/benefits.

You also do the exact same kind of railroading that SR5 is guilty of. You force people to do a 2:1 split on their powers (2:2 with doubled costs... making it 2:1 effective). What about the guy who wants 5 points of magic and only 1 point of adept powers like in SR4a? That was a very viable concept and player type.

In the end, you're better than the SR5 rules since you trim some of the abuses... but worse than the SR5 hotpatch missions errata in that you're way too powerful in the long haul in comparison with your 'extra magic for nothing' approach.

Overall the SR4a rules were the best of the official published so far. I've played a missions official mystic adept now in both SR4a and SR5 and I have to say it's no contest... the SR5 MA blows the other out of the water... the other is basically a technical adept with a touch of utility magic. (in the form of a handful of weak spells, and weak spirit services... a force 4 concealment, guard, etc... can be valuable in their own right). It really comes down to this... the SR5 MA comes out the door as a full mage (minus projection) with effectively 12 points of magic on the cheap.

Arguments to the contrary such as things such as mentor spirits and such are mandatory out the gate are missing the point. 30 points for 6PP as a one time only chargen extravaganza is WAY too cheap... All the mage specific advantages they claim can accrue instead miss the point.

Everything listed as a huge advantage for the pure mage coming out of chargen can be bought after chargen by the mystic adept... while the MA might be an initiation or two behind the pure mage after doing so... it's not a huge difference. And as time goes on... it's even less of a difference. If the Mystic adept chooses to ignore his adept side from this point on... he's effectively only 2 initiations behind the pure mage in karma expenditures (18karma for a force 3 power focus and 10 for a mentor... as opposed to 29 karma to initiate twice). An advantage but not a decisive one, especially the longer the game goes on. (6 magic with 2 initiatians... in the future what... 9 magic with 5 initiations vs. 9 magic with 3 initiations?)... the head start isn't that big.


Another item I've seen skimming the thread is very wrong. The original mystic adepts were adepts first and foremost... the rules even stated outright if anything caused them to lose magic, they would lose power points spent on 'mystic' before any other. If these were permanently lost... the adept would permanently lose all spellcasting ability and could never buy that power again and would forever more be a non-mystic adept.



I think aspected mages have a ton of problems as introduced in the 5e rules. They're too constrained in the long haul. Taking a -6 or -8 dice penalty if they try to use ther magic in a non-aspected way would have been better I feel... an aspected mage could attempt to summon or enchant... but would only be able to handle very weak spirits or preperations. That said... forcing 5e mystic adepts to choose an aspect is probably the best way to straightjacket them. (I have a phys ad who summons on the side... or who can cast spells but not use spirits... or who is mostly a phys ad but with a 'bag of tricks' with a few alchemical tricks up his sleeve).


My ideal way to fix mystic adepts would be to split the magic attribute in two while still limiting total magic to {essence + initiations}. Then raise each one as normal using the stock 5x new rating attribute cost. Since the split attributes are so much lower than the combined one... it fixes the SR4a problem of stupidly high costs to advance a mystic adept in both halves... if so desired. While keeping one of the key balancing factors of the game, the increasing high costs to raise increasingly higher attributes intact.

Sam buys priority A magic... he puts 3 into Magic attribute and 3 into PP attribute. His total is still 6 equal to his essence... if he loses essence he loses a point of magic or PP his option. After initiating he has the option to raise either his Magic from 3->4 for 20karma as normal or his PP attribute. As compared to a straight mage who has 6 magic and needs 35karma for 6->7... this is a significant savings and allows him to advance at an equitable rate while still always being behind the pure mage in power.

Bill buys priority B magic... he puts all 4 points into magic expecting to raise his adept abilities later on. He pays 5 karma for the first PP to raise Power from 0->1 and 10more to raise it again later to raise it from 1->2. After this he needs to initiate to raise either his Magic or Power further (assuming no essence reductions).

That is probably how I'd work it... cap any adept powers bought at the Power-Magic rating... spells would use the Mystic-Magic rating as their dice/force caps. With the initiation PP instead of Metamgic option... such a character could easily keep himself going... unless he wanted to raise an adept power to a level above his Power rating... forcing him to raise it occassionally... But using metamagic -> PP... and buying Magic each time would raise his raw quantity of adept powers and magic rating at an equitable rate if he was willing to sacrifice a metamagic or two as a mage.

[Shinobi Killfist]

My ideal way to fix mystic adepts would be to split the magic attribute in two while still limiting total magic to {essence + initiations}. Then raise each one as normal using the stock 5x new rating attribute cost. Since the split attributes are so much lower than the combined one... it fixes the SR4a problem of stupidly high costs to advance a mystic adept in both halves... if so desired. While keeping one of the key balancing factors of the game, the increasing high costs to raise increasingly higher attributes intact.

Sam buys priority A magic... he puts 3 into Magic attribute and 3 into PP attribute. His total is still 6 equal to his essence... if he loses essence he loses a point of magic or PP his option. After initiating he has the option to raise either his Magic from 3->4 for 20karma as normal or his PP attribute. As compared to a straight mage who has 6 magic and needs 35karma for 6->7... this is a significant savings and allows him to advance at an equitable rate while still always being behind the pure mage in power.

Bill buys priority B magic... he puts all 4 points into magic expecting to raise his adept abilities later on. He pays 5 karma for the first PP to raise Power from 0->1 and 10more to raise it again later to raise it from 1->2. After this he needs to initiate to raise either his Magic or Power further (assuming no essence reductions).

That is probably how I'd work it... cap any adept powers bought at the Power-Magic rating... spells would use the Mystic-Magic rating as their dice/force caps. With the initiation PP instead of Metamgic option... such a character could easily keep himself going... unless he wanted to raise an adept power to a level above his Power rating... forcing him to raise it occassionally... But using metamagic -> PP... and buying Magic each time would raise his raw quantity of adept powers and magic rating at an equitable rate if he was willing to sacrifice a metamagic or two as a mage.

That's how I'd do it as well.

[Cochise]

Another item I've seen skimming the thread is very wrong. The original mystic adepts were adepts first and foremost... the rules even stated outright if anything caused them to lose magic, they would lose power points spent on 'mystic' before any other. If these were permanently lost... the adept would permanently lose all spellcasting ability and could never buy that power again and would forever more be a non-mystic adept.

Next time please do not just "skim" and actually read ... because it was said that by fluff - opposed to the actual rules - they were not "adepts first and foremost" and I was even "kind" enough to provide the SR2 parts of the fluff and could do so for SR3 as well if need be.

[RHat]

For Magic A, Attributes/Skills B/C, Resources D, Human E:
25 karma PP
12 karma power focus
5 karma mentor spirit
4 karma focused concentration 1
3 karma quick healer

So the pure mage is what 1 die better at magic, sure his focused concentration is 2 higher but if you don't go in full you are reagent cheesing it anyways. So reagent cheese 3 or reagent cheese 1 i dont see the big deal. If you are using it just for attribute boosts, drop quick healer and get it to 2 and it handles your dump stats fine.

so really 1 die better for 5 power points, is one die better really a better mage?

The hotfix makes it less unbalanced, but the mystic adept is broken at the core when they allowed them to double up the magic attribute in character creation.

You can't use one problematic rule (which you acknowledge it to be with the "cheese" term) to justify another. And that character has only about 14000K left over for Nuyen, or only 4000 after a single high rating Fake SIN; if you don't have enough money left to buy the various things every character should have and the basics for your character type, then you're behind as it is.

Falconer: That method doesn't work, because it rests on intrinsically false assumptions. If you'd done more than skim the thread, you'd be aware of the previous discussions on the subject.

[Sponge]

That's how I'd do it as well.

After some thinking on it, that idea is growing on me as well.