[X] My Assistant

[Chrome Head]

I didn't want to derail another recent thread that made me think of this question.

The skilljack costs 0.1E and 20k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per rating. The skillwires cost the same, but the availability restricts them to rating 3 for a starting character. Activesofts are 5k per rating, knowsofts 2k, and linguasofts 1k.

It's really expensive. Let's say you play a cybered face character who wants to have access to extra languages for cheap. You have to pay say 80k for access to rating 4 (and 0.4 essence), plus 4k per extra language.

It's even worse for an activesoft user. My understanding of the rules calls for a skilljack AND a skillwires system to be able to process activesofts. That's a 120k investment, as well as 0.6 essence, which is significant, for the privilege of having to spend 15k for each active skill you want to buy in this way. You can make use of up to 6 skills at once, up to 9 if you run wireless. Let's say you buy six skills: your 18 skill points equivalent (on which no edge can be expanded) have costed you a whopping 210k and 0.6 essence. If you are stupid enough to run skillwires wireless (sounds strange too), these skills can be used with +1 to your limit (wow!).

To me it seems that these expensive 'wares only make sense for NPCs and PCs that become extremely rich (though why not buy a lifestyle and retire? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ), at which point they become truly excellent. You can have 12 extra rating 6 skills accessible for a total cost of 600k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and 1.2 essence. Note that Betaware Synaptic Boosters rating 3 come down to 1.05 essence and 427.5k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (and better availability too) though, just for comparison.

This being said, has anyone tried them out at character creation? Has anyone even written a character that has a skilljack for SR5?

[Stahlseele]

Under SR4 there was a nice solution to this problem.
Under SR3 it was way worse in both Essence and Money Cost. And then you did not get any pools either.

[Chrome Head]

Under SR4 there was a nice solution to this problem.
Under SR3 it was way worse in both Essence and Money Cost. And then you did not get any pools either.

Right, but what do you think of SR5's take on it?

[Stahlseele]

It's pretty much on par with how it probably should be.
Seeing how you don't have to spend any KARMA on Skills anymore.
It's only worth it in the long run, if you don't plan on playing a character long enough for it to make a difference, then skill-ware was never worth it.

[Lobo0705]

I'll add that what you are paying for is versatility and speed.

Most characters don't know how to fly a helicopter or plane, for example - and most characters won't want to spend the karma (and time) involved to learn how to do so. On the other hand, pay for a chip, and you can do it instantly.

Similarly, a lot of technical, B/R, and some physical skills are very useful chipped.

It also allows you to prep for a specific run - do we need to operate underwater? I'll slot Diving. Do we need to head out into the jungle/desert/tundra? I'll slot Survival. etc.

[KarmaInferno]

First:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AOpomu9V6Q

My Missions cyberadept has both skilljacks and wires. So far they've been situationally useful, but honestly there are really not a huge amount of different types of skill checks a typical Shadowrun team is likely to have to make. Most builds will already have most of the skills they will regularly use, some more than others.

I have run into a couple of times where I used the skillwires: "Do you have skills related to building structures?" "...I will in a moment.", but honestly we probably could have figured out alternate solutions even without it. So in retrospect, the skillwires may have been a waste, especially since they weren't cheap.



-k

[Jaid]

the hardware seems overpriced. for anyone who wants to spend that much on cyberware, i feel that there are better things to spend the money on. i'm fine with the essence costs.

i do get that it adds versatility, but for the money, i feel there are better ways to invest it. if you don't want to learn to fly a plane, buy a pilot program or hire an NPC rigger as needed.

if you need to slot diving or survival, it seems incredibly unlikely for those skills to be of significant value unless everyone else also has them. heck, it's probably cheaper to buy a drone that can handle those skills for you, *if* you ever even actually need those skills (because really, if you're getting hired for a job, the person hiring you isn't going to hire you unless you could be reasonably expected to succeed; if it is necessary that you be able to fly an airplane, they're not going to hire you unless you can fly an airplane, or unless they can get around it some other way, like providing someone who can pilot an airplane for you).

[Sponge]

It also allows you to prep for a specific run - do we need to operate underwater? I'll slot Diving. Do we need to head out into the jungle/desert/tundra? I'll slot Survival. etc.

Beyond those general prep options, it also lets you do some very specific things that nobody else can replicate, like slot the skill to drive the exotic prototype vehicle that the Johnson wants you to steal. But admittedly, at that point skillwires becomes a GM plot device more than a useful tool.

[Lobo0705]

I don't think that it is an min/max build item, and there are other ways I could see spending my money, but having the jack of all trades character is fairly useful.

I never played 4e, but I've played a character in 3e with Skillwires 6, and being able to slot any skill at rating 6 was fairly useful.

Your mileage may vary - I think it is a concept that could be fun to play, but that's me.

[Stahlseele]

I managed, with some rules wrestling, to build an SR3 Troll with 16 Skills with 8 or more dice in these 16 skills each.
That cost me about half my starting ressources. Buying the skillsofts for most every other usefull skill cost the rest.

Under SR4, you could reduce the skillsoft price to 10% list value, if you know how.

[Chrome Head]

Under SR4, you could reduce the skillsoft price to 10% list value, if you know how.

Cryptic statement... is cryptic. Care to elaborate?

[Stahlseele]

There was a . . sort of . . exploit in the rules for this . . .
Basically, you got yourself 2 things at character creation.
A Level 4/4 Group Contact Warez Network and a tricked out for SEARCH OPERATIONS Comlink.
Then you use your comlink, search program/agent and the group contact and 3 days in game time.
And because it's obtained through help of your group contact you pay that group contact 10% of the list price for it.

At least, that's how i remember it having been explained to me.

[Glyph]

SR3 had the chipjack expert driver, a broken piece of 'ware (which was later nerfed a bit, if I recall correctly). It gave you a task pool equal to its rating, which was especially good for skills that normally didn't have dice pools.

SR4 had move-by-wire, which was essentially improved wired reflexes with skillwires as a free extra.

So if the previous two editions are anything to go by, wait for the SR5 augmentation book to come out, and there should be something nice (and possibly cheesy) for skillwire-lovers. But you only get the bonus if you have wireless enabled. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

the hardware seems overpriced. for anyone who wants to spend that much on cyberware, i feel that there are better things to spend the money on. i'm fine with the essence costs.

i do get that it adds versatility, but for the money, i feel there are better ways to invest it. if you don't want to learn to fly a plane, buy a pilot program or hire an NPC rigger as needed.

if you need to slot diving or survival, it seems incredibly unlikely for those skills to be of significant value unless everyone else also has them. heck, it's probably cheaper to buy a drone that can handle those skills for you, *if* you ever even actually need those skills (because really, if you're getting hired for a job, the person hiring you isn't going to hire you unless you could be reasonably expected to succeed; if it is necessary that you be able to fly an airplane, they're not going to hire you unless you can fly an airplane, or unless they can get around it some other way, like providing someone who can pilot an airplane for you).

I think the hardware if fine in cost, its the software that costs way too much. It should be like that matrix scene with the youtube video above where you download programs on the fly. Now that would be a worthwhile wireless bonus, can stream new programs for free.

[Jaid]

I don't think that it is an min/max build item, and there are other ways I could see spending my money, but having the jack of all trades character is fairly useful.

I never played 4e, but I've played a character in 3e with Skillwires 6, and being able to slot any skill at rating 6 was fairly useful.

Your mileage may vary - I think it is a concept that could be fun to play, but that's me.

best you can get at chargen is rating 3.

and since you can't just upgrade it, it doesn't particularly help you on your way to getting those rating 6 skillwires you always wanted either.

so sure, you *could* save up 240,000 nuyen to blow on rating 6 skillwires and skilljack... and still have no software to run on it, mind you...

but, that could also buy you a lot of other really awesome things. heck, if the skills you're considering investing in are based on physical attributes, it's entirely possible you'll gain more from just buying 'ware to increase your attributes in the first place.

i suppose i could potentially see someone shelling out for rating 1 jack and wires. 40k nuyen to avoid the defaulting penalty and being able to use skills even if they're normally not possible untrained might be worth enough to consider, especially if you have high or at least decent attributes across the board. no way is it worth an additional 40k for every +1 to those skills though.

[Medicineman]

Just for Your Info
The German BBB (= Erratta) says Skilljacks are only 1000 ¥ per Level
Skillwires are still ridiculously expensive though


with a German Dance
Medicineman

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just for Your Info
The German BBB (= Erratta) says Skilljacks are only 1000 ¥ per Level
Skillwires are still ridiculously expensive though


with a German Dance
Medicineman

1,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) is pretty decent for a price, in my opinion...
Yes, SkillWires are still ridiculous. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Cryptic statement... is cryptic. Care to elaborate?

I imagine this is what is being discussed...

Cracked Software (Active, Know and Linguasofts included, since they are software) could be purchased for 10% normal cost if you knew where to go.
Having connections in a Cracker Warez VPN is a good thing.
Has nothing to do with the Contacts, per se, but the cost of Cracked Software, which is 10% norm.

The other alternative was to implement Freeware, which were available up to Rating 4, if you used those optional rules, and then all your Skills were essentially free up to Rating 4.... Don't know anyone who did that though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Me, I preferred the Skillsoft Subscription Service. Pay a monthly Fee (subsumed into lifestyle, but Cost was never detailed) to have access to the skill library of the service (downloadable on demand, for a duration). Much like subscribing to your Matrix Feeds or Movie service. Several such services are described in the back of the relevant book. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jack VII]

The German BBB (= Erratta) says Skilljacks are only 1000 ¥ per Level

Wow, that's, uh, quite the errata. I'll be glad when a formal errata document is released (particularly since I just built a guy with a skilljack).

[Sendaz]

I'll be glad when a formal errata document is released

BWA HA HA HA (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) HA HA HA (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) HA HA HA (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Good one...

*wipes away a tear, still chuckling*

oh wait, you were serious...

Oops.....

[Stahlseele]

i don't really get why you need a skill-jack all of a sudden . .
back in SR3, a normal datajack and chipjack combination was enough for use with skillwires.
and in SR4, it all went whhooo wireless! comlink! download! store! use! no jack shit at all!

[Medicineman]

??
A Skilljack in SR5 is what a Chipjack used to be in SR3 (IIRC)
You need a Skilljack for Knowledge Skills (and Languages) and Skilljack & Skillwire for active Skills

HougH!
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

In SR3 you needed:
A Chipjack.
And then to use Knowsoft(knowledge skills) a know-soft-connection addon for the chipjack.
And then to use DataSoft(Maps, Text-Files, Images) you needed a built in GPS and Image-System in the eyes.

For Active Soft(Active skills that allow you to do stuff without actually know how anything works) you needed
A Datajack.
Skillwires.
If you wanted to use more than one skill at a time, you needed Skilliwirs with highr Memory Capacity in which to load the active Skills.
Or more than one Datajack. Or implanted Storage which had to be connected to both the datajack and the skillwires via a router technically.
Or you needed a skillsoft jukebox, which acted as a router/several external datajacks into which you would put the skillsoft chips/sticks.

And then you could only ever use one skill at a time and had to spend actions to switch between the skills.
And then there are the odd questions like:
What do i connect the skillsoft jukebox to in my body?
Do i need a Datajack for that?
If i want to control the jukebox via DNI Mod, do i need 2 Datajacks and have it hooked up to both of them or is it a 2 way connection and i only need one?
And the Expert Driver for Skillsoft is a Chipjack Addon, as far as i remember . . so does it work for active soft, which goes into Datajacks?

[Lobo0705]

You are a little off in how they worked in 3e.

Knowsofts can be accessed with a chipjack, or with a knowsoft
link (either piped through a datajack or from headware memory).
A datajack alone cannot access a knowsoft because the data-
jack cannot interpret it as anything more than data.

Datasofts can be accessed with a chipjack, display link or image link (accessing
it from a datajack or headware memory).

A full skillwire system is required to use activesofts. The skillwire system can access
activesofts from a chipjack, datajack or headware memory.

Additional chipjacks or datajacks can accommodate additional
skillsofts. Skillsofts are usually sold encased in 5-centimeter
long cylinders to protect the chip until it is inserted into a jack. All
softs can be downloaded into headware memory through a datajack.

Once the chip is in and the data transferred to headware
memory, the user can remove the chip. If the user doesn’t have
enough headware memory, he or she must keep the chip slotted
to use it. Once downloaded, the resulting program takes up the
amount of space shown on the Skill Memory Table.

So you can see that you can access all softs with either chipjacks or a datajack


Here is the info on the jukebox:

Skillsoft Jukebox: Essentially a portable computer with
numerous ports for slotting skillsofts, the jukebox is connected
via fiber-optic cable to a datajack or chipjack. Through keypad,
voice or mental command (the latter via datajack), the
user can “switch” between skillsofts. Ideal for combat and
other situations when switching skillsofts needs to be quick
and efficient.

The Chipjack Expert Driver works with activesofts, since as per above you can access them through either a chipjack or datajack.

Also, you don't have to spend an action to use different skills, unless your Skillwires didn't have the memory to handle that many. So if you skillwires could handle two rating 6 skills, and you either had them downloaded into storage, or had multiple chipjacks (or a multi-slot chipjack) you could use both without doing anything special. So you could have, let's say, Pistols and Athletics running at the same time and use both freely. If you wanted to use Shotguns, however, you would need to either slot a new chip, switch which jack the skillwires were accessing, or load it into memory, depending on how you had that activesoft.

[Medicineman]

that sound quite difficult (IIRC you needed a Calculator for the MP necessary to run a Talentsoft)
Its way more easy in SR4A and even in SR5 even though You have to pay a Fortune for Skillwires.
I'm mourning the "destruction" of one dystopian aspect though.
In SR4A I always Imagend hundreds of cheap Labor (Orks & Humans, even Elves) that got a cheap Level 3 Skillwire and and the beginning of their Shift they got the necessary Skills transmitted Via WiFi .
And the end of their Shift they got the Skill erased. So they where kept "Stupid",they didn't need any Training and where forced to work for the Con that provides everything for them
Now in SR5 when You need 63.000 ¥ ( Plus Medical Cost) this is too expensive to make sense (Even if its cheaper for the Con maybe 50 % ?) The Megacons won't never invest 30.000 - 75.000 in one single Worker -Not counting the Price for the Talentsoft itself- let alone into Hundreds of Workers ! So this Metropolis (Fritz Lang Movie 1910 IIRC) Like Mass-waiting-queue of dirty exhaustet lowclass Workers trotting to and from MegaFactories is no more ! Not in SR5 not with this Stupid Rules !
Its a shame that CGL is destroying its own Dystopia .
Which makes me a sad Panda (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

He who dances like a sad Panda
Medicineman