[X] My Assistant

[Tseims]

I have read the rulebook almost completely, but I don't really understand anything in "The Wireless World"-chapter.

My group has a rigger and a decker. I'm not really interested in what the decker is doing, but the rigger is rolling large handfuls of dice for everything he does with his drones, sometimes even more than people specialized in that thing roll.

Can someone please tell me how and what a rigger rolls when, for example, he tries to sneak his drone to a small house with guards in it? Or when he tries to attack one of them with 4 different attack drones?

[yesferatu]

4th or 5th ed?

[Tseims]

4th or 5th ed?

4th, like the topic marker says (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[apple]

4th, like the topic marker says (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Assuming legal max ratings in software/hardware, corresponding cyberware etc.

Drone controlling itself (Pilot-Software)
Initiative: Pilot Software 6 + Response 6 (assuming a security or military drone, a civilian drone can only have response 5) + Response Enhancer 6 from Unwired = 18 + 18d6
Ranged Attack: Pilot 6 + Targeting Autosoft 4 +2 fuzzy logic
Maneuvering: Pilot 6 + Maneuver Autosoft 4 +2 fuzzy logic + handling of drones
Perception: Sensor 6 (camera 6 or radar 6) + Clearsight Autosoft 4 + 2 fuzzy logic

Drone controlled by a jumped in rigger, German edition (due to the errate CGL never put out)
Initiative: Intuition 6 + response 6 + response enhancer 6 +1 hotsim = 19 + 19d6
Ranged Attack: Sensor 6 + Gunnery 6 +2 Specialisation +2 Control rig +3 Control rigger nanites (German errata) +2 smartlink +2 hotsim
Maneuvering: response 6 + vehicle skill 6 + handling +2 hotsim + 2 specialisation +2 control rig +3 control rigger nanites
Perception: Sensor 6 + perception 6 +2 hotsim +3 visual enhancement +2 specialisation (visual) (in the case of radar or micro these bonuses drop)

+x tacnet for attack/defense/perception and perhaps maneuver, if the GM approves.
3 phases for the drone, 5 for the rigger (assuming simsense enhancer and simsense , don´t forget that a rigger needs one action to control the drones when they are moving)

Can someone please tell me how and what a rigger rolls when, for example, he tries to sneak his drone to a small house with guards in it?

SR 4A p247
Jumped-In Rigger Dice Pool
Infiltration
Response + Infiltration
=>
6 Response of the drone
6 Skill of the rigger
2 specialisation of the rigger
2 hotsim of the rigger
-----------
16d6 for the infiltration test

Note that the guards perception can be modified by the size of the drone (see Arsenal, -2 to -6) chameleon coating (-4) and magic concealment (- rating of the spirit).

Or when he tries to attack one of them with 4 different attack drones?

Jumped-In Rigger Dice Pool
Attack#
Sensor + Gunnery (+ active/passive targeting rules)

Note, that gunnery is a vehicle skill and can be boosted by the control rig and and the control rig nanites in Augmentation. If you are new to SR4 and if you have a new rigger, have him only 1 attack drone at the same time, like any pet/summoner class you must know the rules fluently before you use multiple attack drones if you don´t want to drag down the gameplay for all other characters/players.

SYL

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Programs and Hardware stats could go to Rating 10 Max Legal, not just 6. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Autosofts were still limited to 4 IIRC. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Programs above rating 6 degraded at a pretty rapid rate, though, and cost an exorbitant amount.

Also, civilian drones can go above 5 on their hardware matrix stats, but need to spend a customization slot on Modular Electronics to do so. (SR4A Changes document)

-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Programs above rating 6 degraded at a pretty rapid rate, though, and cost an exorbitant amount.

Also, civilian drones can go above 5 on their hardware matrix stats, but need to spend a customization slot on Modular Electronics to do so. (SR4A Changes document)

-k

True... Though that degradation rate was not all that big an issue in the long run (and implementing Patching rules would fix that fairly easily - No real reason they could not be patched, like normal programs).... The price, on the other hand, definitely was... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Though I do not think that Modular Electronics made it into actual Print in any Book... Could be wrong though.

[Udoshi]

Drone controlling itself (Pilot-Software)
Initiative: Pilot Software 6 + Response 6 (assuming a security or military drone, a civilian drone can only have response 5) + Response Enhancer 6

Note, that gunnery is a vehicle skill and can be boosted by the control rig and and the control rig nanites in Augmentation.

Just thought I'd pop in and correct some misnomers here.

Note that response enhancers affect initiative not response, and control rig nanites suck and do not work as advertised - they boost the Pilot skill only.

If you're going to use german errata though, please post a link to such. Its definitely not the default for most of the system.


In general riggers get scary when they operate things directly, because hotsim/control rig/specialization is a 6 extra dice to any test, and you can easily get 10 dice on Command checks before you even look at adding Skill into the pool.

Honestly, it sounds like you should post your Rigger players sheet and we can audit it.

[apple]

Yes, the response enhancer do increase initiative, thats the reason why they are listed under initiative for drones and rigger.

Regarding the control rig nanites, please note that I mentioned the German errata - which was not released from CGL due to SR5, but was incorporated into the German edition (just like ... every other errata as it seems *sigh* SR5 *sigh*). In the German errata for the nanites, they do not only affect piloting skills, but *vehicle skills"*, just like the control rig implant. Which means piloting skills and gunnery. Unfortunately I cannot link a print book and I don´t have a scanner. I will see if I can get a scan or a photo.

+3 Control rigger nanites => (German errata) <=

SYL

[apple]

http://postimg.org/image/uvicli8xp/

Riggernanites in the German Bodytech/Augmentation. Another change is, that the nanites are compatible with the simsense cyberware for an additional initiative phase.

SYL

[Sengir]

Ranged Attack: Sensor 6 + Gunnery 6 +2 Specialisation +2 Control rig +3 Control rigger nanites (German errata) +2 smartlink +2 hotsim

The default for vehicle attacks is Response + Gunnery (Gunnery is linked to Agility, Agility gets replaced by the drone's Response when jumped in). Sensor only comes into play when using sensor targeting (->vehicle combat chapter), in which case you'll also have to take into account signature modifiers (like -3 for metahuman-sized).

Yes, the table at the end of the matrix chapter proclaims Sensor + Gunnery as the default. Obvious error is obvious.

[apple]

I was always under the impression that you always use passive or active targeting, no chance for something else. Because its the same in Unwired, Arsenal, Augmentation and in both basic books. I cannot find any references to response + gunnery.

If you mean

Any tests are made using the rigger’s skills and the drone’s attributes (substituting Response for Agility and Reaction and Sensor for Intuition).

I do not think that this counts for gunnery tests, since a gunnery test is always an active or passive sensor test. It would count for other drone agility tests.

SYL

[Sengir]

Because its the same in Unwired, Arsenal, Augmentation and in both basic books. I cannot find any references to response + gunnery.

The BBB says the following on Gunnery:

P. 128:
GUNNERY (AGILITY)

P. 245:
JUMPING IN
...
A drone controlled in this manner acts on the rigger’s Initiative—
the rigger and the drone are treated as a single unit. Any tests are
made using the rigger’s skills and the drone’s attributes (substituting
Response for Agility and Reaction and Sensor for Intuition).

The only place where the rules talk about the Sensor stat in conjunction with Gunnery is on p. 171:
SENSOR TARGETING
Characters can use the vehicle’s Sensor Attribute to help with Gunnery.


Therefore, the table (which first appeared in UW and was the copied into 4A) is obviously wrong. Sensor + Gunnery can be used, but the default is Agility...and signature modifiers make sensor targeting a poor choice except when fighting large vehicles.

[apple]

With your interpretation, passive targeting wouldnt make any sense.

SYL

[Sengir]

With your interpretation, passive targeting wouldnt make any sense.

It's perfectly fine for attacking cars and anything larger...

[apple]

But why should you use it (except for attacking trains and zeppelin)?

SYL

[Udoshi]

I do not think that this counts for gunnery tests, since a gunnery test is always an active or passive sensor test. It would count for other drone agility tests.

This is a false premise that only applies if a vehicle has a sensor rating, and then only if you choose to use it.

Old vehicles with non-electronic turrets, for example, are Agility+Gunnery. This is The Default.
Another -option- is Sensor + gunnery
Yet another action is Sensor+Perception as a simple action, the hits of which aid one of the other rolls
A third option is Command + gunnery, because command replaces the attribute portion of rolls.
The fourth and final option, which you seemed to have missed because it is SPECIFIC to JumpIn, is substituting Response for all Agility and Reaction based tests, making Agility+gunnery become Response+Gunnery.

Its especially confusing in the case of Autonomously running drones, because there are two stat-swaps in place.
First, pilot for Agility(as the common rolls for riggers table would have me believe) and then autosoft for skill. This is still the Stat+Skill format, just with two swaps.

Do note that the Common Rolls for Riggers table is awful and wrong sometimes. It assumes the Jumped Rigged in rigger is using Sensor Targeting, and at the same time, the Autonomous drone is NOT.

Rigging is simple, really, once you get the rules of thumbs for What Statswaps What.

[apple]

Another -option- is Sensor + gunnery

But that is only for manually using a gun (like a soldier using a mounted HMG). The moment you use onboard fire electronic (from the current TV screen in an Abrams or Leopard 2 MBT to the hot sim VR reality of a 2070 drone the only thing mentioned besides manual gunnery is sensor gunnery, starting with passive sensor gunnery (it doesnt cost an action.

Yet another action is Sensor+Perception as a simple action, the hits of which aid one of the other rolls

That is active sensor gunnery, yes

SYL

[Sengir]

But that is only for manually using a gun (like a soldier using a mounted HMG). The moment you use onboard fire electronic (from the current TV screen in an Abrams or Leopard 2 MBT to the hot sim VR reality of a 2070 drone the only thing mentioned besides manual gunnery is sensor gunnery, starting with passive sensor gunnery

[citation needed]

I already quoted the section on sensor targeting, it specifically denotes it as an option. The default is to use the skill + linked attribute, which for Gunnery undeniably is Agility, replaced by Response when jumped in.

[Udoshi]

[citation needed]

I already quoted the section on sensor targeting, it specifically denotes it as an option

So much this.

Apple, the thing you're not getting is that sensor targeting is not mandatory(any flavor of it, passive or active). You're not forced to use it, ever.

Seriously. Even autonomous drones that can only deal with the world via the dogbrain pilot and sensors aren't forced to use it.
They use Pilot. Which, you guessed it, swaps in for Agility, just like jumping riggers swap in response.