Too much info?, How to handle players who want too much info? Options

[AccessControl]

So I've been thinking about my little band of runners, and I've come to the realization that the fact that my players, or at least some of them, seem to hate going on runs where they don't have every single little bit of info possible. I'm talking floorplans, guard schedules, door codes/access keys, pictures of potential targets, butchers, bakers, and candlestick makers. They'll spend an hour having the decker go diving to try and find as much of this stuff as possible.

How do you guys gracefully say "You don't find that info" without making it seem like a cop-out? Some stuff, I can see that being a valid answer for (pictures of a shadowy behind-the-scenes syndicate players, for example), but stuff like building floorplans they've reasonably argued should be public record, and having the decker do a netdive every session to try and get to the target building/complex's node to get stuff like guard schedules and whatnot is getting a little tiring. Then again, since we're playing SR5, I may be doing that wrong, since I also haven't really been able to determine if the 100m "visible" radius in the Matrix is the absolute limit of where a decker can go (which would mean that if they wanted to get into the building's public node, like a museum's public info section for example, they'd have to be standing right in front of it, which does seem a bit silly).

Thoughts?

[BishopMcQ]

Some of it may be public record, but you can also have changes that were made off the books, or construction that doesn't match public records. Also, anything with extraterritoriality doesn't get building permits filed with the local officials.

Floorplans of the museum, sure that's available as a tourist brochure. The actual plans with wiring and HVAC are all hard copy, files were lost in the Crash and it has never been a priority to spend time rescanning in the original blue prints. Anyone who wants them can go file a request with the appropriate offices and get a copy in a few weeks, with their SIN recorded etc.

Guard schedules, etc, are stored on the company's internal network. So, jump from the LTG to Renraku's private network and start hacking... or you know, try doing the old fashioned way by counting haircuts in and out of the building if you have time.

The information is all out there, but pushing the decker into the pool isn't necessarily the best way to get it every time. Sometimes, it can be the face or the B/E specialist who lifts a keycard off a wageslave as they kick back a pint on their way home. Push your team to explore all of their options and open the rest of the toolbox.

[AccessControl]

Hmmm...I'll have to see if I can't find a way to guide them towards such "alternate" solutions. Problem is, our little team is just that. Little. We've got the one decker (who may or may not be moving out of state sometime soon, so he may be moot anyway), one mage who'd rather Toxic Wave someone's face off than talk to them, and one pseudo-sammy/infiltration guy. No real face, but I did have them rescue a teenage technomancer NPC a few runs ago who I've sort-of written up as learning how to be a face as a backup.

[Sponge]

So I've been thinking about my little band of runners, and I've come to the realization that the fact that my players, or at least some of them, seem to hate going on runs where they don't have every single little bit of info possible. I'm talking floorplans, guard schedules, door codes/access keys, pictures of potential targets, butchers, bakers, and candlestick makers. They'll spend an hour having the decker go diving to try and find as much of this stuff as possible.

How do you guys gracefully say "You don't find that info" without making it seem like a cop-out? Some stuff, I can see that being a valid answer for (pictures of a shadowy behind-the-scenes syndicate players, for example), but stuff like building floorplans they've reasonably argued should be public record, and having the decker do a netdive every session to try and get to the target building/complex's node to get stuff like guard schedules and whatnot is getting a little tiring. Then again, since we're playing SR5, I may be doing that wrong, since I also haven't really been able to determine if the 100m "visible" radius in the Matrix is the absolute limit of where a decker can go (which would mean that if they wanted to get into the building's public node, like a museum's public info section for example, they'd have to be standing right in front of it, which does seem a bit silly).

Thoughts?

My initial thought is, if the players enjoy doing that kind of stuff, why shut them down?

I can understand your frustration, though. You want the players to get to the stuff you planned and all that other stuff is kind of getting in the way and bogging down the game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But I think if your players get a kick out of it, then roll with it - make that legwork interesting.

One way is to make it clear to the players that ferreting out this information is not a freebie - someone may notice, and that can have consequences. For example, any site that is really serious about physical security will either have "public" information like building plans either locked down by agreement with the authorities, monitored for anyone accessing it, out of date, and/or have important security details missing.

Sometimes the information they want simply isn't available via the Matrix, and they have to go talk to someone - that someone might ask them for a favour in return for the info, or they might have conflicting interests and tell someone else what information the players are looking for.

The idea though is not to hold a stick over the players to completely discourage them from doing that stuff (although hopefully they should start to think about whether the benefits outweigh the potential risks), but rather to challenge them while they do the things they like to do.

As for the 100m thing, no, you're not limited to 100m in the Matrix - that's just the range at which (public) Device/Persona Icons are obvious without having to make a Matrix Perception test. (Public) Hosts are always obvious, no matter the range.

[Wolfgar]

I can't answer your SR5 matrix question (haven't played it yet) but your main problem is one I'm familiar with. Planning the run is one of the hallmarks of the mirror-shade style of this game, and my gaming group would easily spend half to two-thirds the session planning out a heist. The simple fact is, a good crew (or a good bunch of players) will use as much time as they can to insure their own success and survival, as they should. Your job is to take that in to account and keep the story moving.

One way to cut down on their planning/research is to simply give them an immediate type of mission. Have them called in to meet Mr. Johnson and told to bring their gear with them. If their smart they'll charge extra, but at least they won't have time to plan for the run. Next thing you know they're in the action.

As for finding floor plans online, unless the building is a public/government office or monument, I doubt the floor plans are online. Megacorps don't have to publish squat on the record, and most private offices would be designed by private building firms. Now, in someway your players are correct, the plans may be online, but that doesn't mean they aren't behind a firewall on a node they don't have access to.

[forgarn]

I agree with some of the other posts. There should be no reason to stop them from trying to get everything. However, as others have pointed out, they may not be publicly available, and that which is has no guarantee of being correct. You may have the guards' schedule, but what happens if you are expecting Guard A to be at location A but he is sick today and is replaced by Guard G? Or maybe Executive C had a secret safe put into his office that is not on the official floor plans (or even maybe a secret room). Or maybe Joe Wageslave Q got "fired" and the security codes have been changed.

There are a lot of things that could go wrong even if you do have "every little possible speck" of data to plan with. If the team cannot deal with changes on the fly, they will be in a world of hurt!

[toturi]

So I've been thinking about my little band of runners, and I've come to the realization that the fact that my players, or at least some of them, seem to hate going on runs where they don't have every single little bit of info possible. I'm talking floorplans, guard schedules, door codes/access keys, pictures of potential targets, butchers, bakers, and candlestick makers. They'll spend an hour having the decker go diving to try and find as much of this stuff as possible.

How do you guys gracefully say "You don't find that info" without making it seem like a cop-out? Some stuff, I can see that being a valid answer for (pictures of a shadowy behind-the-scenes syndicate players, for example), but stuff like building floorplans they've reasonably argued should be public record, and having the decker do a netdive every session to try and get to the target building/complex's node to get stuff like guard schedules and whatnot is getting a little tiring. Then again, since we're playing SR5, I may be doing that wrong, since I also haven't really been able to determine if the 100m "visible" radius in the Matrix is the absolute limit of where a decker can go (which would mean that if they wanted to get into the building's public node, like a museum's public info section for example, they'd have to be standing right in front of it, which does seem a bit silly).

Thoughts?

I find that it a little silly to flat out deny my players the ability to find the info that they want. I usually look through their skill sets and ask them to roll any related planning-type skills and tell them that their characters think that a certain course of action is well/ill-advised. Or that a particular piece of info will take time. Perhaps time that they don't have. Or that running a well-secured node may well give away that they are planning to hit the company, if they trip the alarms/get a high security tally/etc.

Oh, you haven't touched on the one-mostly-GM fiat info item which the players can try - Divination.

[Smash]

This is learned behaviour. Players learn it in 2 ways:

1) The GM punishes them for missing that one critical piece of information AND miraculously that one piece of information is ALWAYS the most critical piece.
2) The marrative tends to push missions into fail territory because it feels more interesting. You get hired to bodyguard some fence during a meet with a buyer, 90% of the time something will go down.

If you don't make these 2 things constants in your games then players will spend less time micro-managing mission prep.

[Critias]

Players want that level of info because they think they'll need it to survive. You can smooth over that sort of desperation for detail, but it can require a certain amount of narrative handwavium, and each game table has a different tolerance level for that sort of thing.

If folks really dig the nitty-gritty details and gear lists and counting bullets and RFID tags and want to know meter-by-meter measurements of rooms and stuff, planning out to-the-second assaults and knowing all those details OOC? It can make for a lot of extra work for the GM, but if everyone's on board and that's what they want, well, that's what they want. Some folks like Rainbow Six (early R6, at least) levels of split-second, life-or-death, detail-oriented gameplay. Folks want to know everything, so they can plan and plot it out in meticulous detail. Sometimes players get this way because they've been burned by GMs in the past who required this level of stuff, sometimes they get this way because it's a holdover from mapping out dungeons on graph paper, sometimes they get this way because they're engineers or programmers (or other detail-oriented jobs) in real life, sometimes they get this way because they just like knowing stuff, and planning things out.

Some folks prefer, I dunno, the more cinematic gameplay of recent Call of Duty games, with scripted terrain destruction, scripted spots for enemy unlimited spawning, take-cover-and-you'll-heal mechanics, and that sort of thing. Folks might like their tabletop RPG sessions more in line with that, where it's not the details that matter, it's the rolling of thunderous handfulls of dice and the telling of awesome stories. Here, a GM might just say "Yeah, you get the floorplan. What sort of details are you after, and why? Huh? Oh, yeah, sure. I guess there's air vents you can fit into, why not?" Some players are this way because they're burnt-out and feel like the other end is "working" instead of playing, some are this way because they're new to gaming and just want to focus on the action, some are this way because they're used to cons where there isn't time for that much detail...lots of reasons.

Neither way's right or wrong, but the players and the GM should be on the same page, I think.

In a way, I think it's sort of the "black trenchcoat" versus "pink mohawk" divide, but even more starkly OOC in origin.

[DMiller]

Players want that level of info because they think they'll need it to survive. You can smooth over that sort of desperation for detail, but it can require a certain amount of narrative handwavium, and each game table has a different tolerance level for that sort of thing.

If folks really dig the nitty-gritty details and gear lists and counting bullets and RFID tags and want to know meter-by-meter measurements of rooms and stuff, planning out to-the-second assaults and knowing all those details OOC? It can make for a lot of extra work for the GM, but if everyone's on board and that's what they want, well, that's what they want. Some folks like Rainbow Six (early R6, at least) levels of split-second, life-or-death, detail-oriented gameplay. Folks want to know everything, so they can plan and plot it out in meticulous detail. Sometimes players get this way because they've been burned by GMs in the past who required this level of stuff, sometimes they get this way because it's a holdover from mapping out dungeons on graph paper, sometimes they get this way because they're engineers or programmers (or other detail-oriented jobs) in real life, sometimes they get this way because they just like knowing stuff, and planning things out.

Some folks prefer, I dunno, the more cinematic gameplay of recent Call of Duty games, with scripted terrain destruction, scripted spots for enemy unlimited spawning, take-cover-and-you'll-heal mechanics, and that sort of thing. Folks might like their tabletop RPG sessions more in line with that, where it's not the details that matter, it's the rolling of thunderous handfulls of dice and the telling of awesome stories. Here, a GM might just say "Yeah, you get the floorplan. What sort of details are you after, and why? Huh? Oh, yeah, sure. I guess there's air vents you can fit into, why not?" Some players are this way because they're burnt-out and feel like the other end is "working" instead of playing, some are this way because they're new to gaming and just want to focus on the action, some are this way because they're used to cons where there isn't time for that much detail...lots of reasons.

Neither way's right or wrong, but the players and the GM should be on the same page, I think.

In a way, I think it's sort of the "black trenchcoat" versus "pink mohawk" divide, but even more starkly OOC in origin.

Wow, very well said. Our group tends to be more on the "gather all info" side of things. I do think it is because both the GM and one player a steeply from the "map dungeons on graph paper" group. I don't mind though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ProfGast]

A couple of "unavailable" methods have been covered so far like having hardcopies only, data lost to crash or incorrectly/poorly updated blueprints but here's another idea: complications arising from overly enthusiastic stakeouts/prepwork.

I'm not saying punish your players for trying to be prepared, but breaking into nodes or staking out a spot too much prior to a heist or run is liable to draw more attention. "Hey the node was broken into 3 days before..." or "There was that black Roadmaster parked out front 4 days last week." They might get the info they need, but they may also kick the location into higher alert.

This is especially true given SR5's Big Brother-esque approach to the Matrix where sufficient illegal accesses in a given zone may trigger slient alerts that cause them to ramp up security or bring in extra overwatch for that week.

[ShadowDragon8685]

One way to cut down on their planning/research is to simply give them an immediate type of mission. Have them called in to meet Mr. Johnson and told to bring their gear with them. If their smart they'll charge extra, but at least they won't have time to plan for the run. Next thing you know they're in the action.

This can backfire spectacularly on the GM. Some players/groups will think about an offer like that for approximately twenty seconds and turn down the Johnson flat, no matter how much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) he's offering. They feel that no reasonable reward can be worth walking blind into a clusterfuck, and if the Johnson is offering an unreasonable reward, it's a trap, set-up, he doesn't intend to pay them, or a suicide mission, and either way they won't get to spend the money.


Instead, I'd say either roll with it most of the time, and to mix it up, have the job be somewhere regular legwork won't work. I don't know SR5, because screw SR5, but Redmond Barrens are Redmond Barrens no matter which edition you're playing in. You're not going to be getting much in the way of useful floor plans for the Barrens off the 'trix, guard schedules are likely to be ad-hoc and based primarily around who's not on drugs tonight, door codes and access keys are likely to be nonexistant unless you run into a corp black site, getting pictures of someone who lives in a Barrens bunker or a renovated Toxic Castle won't be easy at all, the only guys called "Butchers" are the ones you want to stay way the hell away from and/or collect reward money on, and there ain't no bakers or candlestick makers.

Not every run involves stealing things from megacorps, either. You could do what I did and have some more-or-less benign group of collective-living farmers like those out in the Plastic Jungles contact your group. Put a different spin on it by having the group be hired for security rather than to breach it, or (since they seem to like knowing everything about security design,) to design and implement a security system for these Barrens-dwellers.

[Blade]

A great way to handle this is to use a a posteriori system.
Instead of having your decker say "I'm looking for the blueprints", "I'm looking for the guard schedules", etc. You have him say "I gather information about the building.", roll his dice, and write down the number of hits. The other characters can do the same "I spend some time with the guards at the local bar", roll charisma+etiquette, write down the number of hits.

The number of hits go into a (or multiple, if you want to keep some details) "planning pool". Then when on the run, they can spend points from this planning pool to avoid trouble. For example:

"The backdoor is locked."
"When I did the rounds, I've noticed that the guy from the delivery company keeps the door unlocked when he's here."
"Ok, you spend 1 planning point and you're in. But you can hear a guard coming down the hallway."
"It's Barry, I've befriended him at the local bar. He shouldn't give us too much trouble..."
"Ok, spend 2 planning points."

Or, if you want to keep the control over the use of planning point:
"The backdoor is locked."
"How much planning point would it take to get it open?"
"One, you've noticed that the guy from the delivery company keeps the door unlocked when he's here."
"Ok, I spend it."

[sk8bcn]

Even if it's a good idea, I wouldn't love that much as a player. Part of my fun is to be rewarded for the qualities of my ideas, not a simple roll.

[attilatheyeon]

Is there still a data search skill in sr5? If so, make some of this a simple data search so you all can keep moving in the story.

[MADness]

It sounds like the other two team members dump all the extra footwork on the decker. Instead of curtailing the legwork, over reward the guy doing all of it. If they spend half the session "planning" and that work is why the run succeeded, then the decker should get the most Karma, and possibly extra bonuses (black book bank accounts, r&d documents, the hot secretary's contact info). At the very least that should encourage the ohter two to do something. Also, as has been said, not everything is available to the public.

[sk8bcn]

It sounds like the other two team members dump all the extra footwork on the decker. Instead of curtailing the legwork, over reward the guy doing all of it. If they spend half the session "planning" and that work is why the run succeeded, then the decker should get the most Karma, and possibly extra bonuses (black book bank accounts, r&d documents, the hot secretary's contact info). At the very least that should encourage the ohter two to do something. Also, as has been said, not everything is available to the public.

Nope. Id on't agree. The one having the ideas should be rewarded at least as much as the one making the rolls (IMO)

[Warlordtheft]

I like the planning, but yes this is shadowrun. Typically the groups I've run plan for everything but the one thing they don't know (or get wrong) usually is the thing that screws them up. I play a sandbox style game where the PC's are free to do as they please (though if they don't take the run I'll pocket it for later with a few tweaks). As to the information gathering I usually start of with PC knowledge skills. Not because they give them something specific (unless they roll really well), but because it gives them and idea of where to start.

Regarding data searches, the first thing you have to keep in mind is what information is publicly available, and how much useless information there is, and if the source got it wrong. First priority for a GM is to determine this. Also, I'd strongly encourage the -1 per extra roll on threshold test, and if they glitch give them the wrong information (this might be a good reason to keep those rolls secret from players).

Contacts: Again keep in mind that the contact may not have the information (or might be wrong) or might be on the payroll of the organization the PC is running against.

Let the players plan to their hearts content if that is what they enjoy, and if the group seems stuck on something a good knowledge roll on the PC's part might give them an idea. I.E. The PC doesn't know for sure of course but can recall that standard procedures for BAD WOLF security is to run patrols in 10 minute intervals, and have constant drone or camera coverage of sensitive areas.

[nezumi]

Yeah, I also have runners who will basically do their own, totally unrelated run to get a tiny bit of unnecessary data in support of the original run. Unfortunately, most of the in-game changes push them to do MORE research or over-preparing.

Out of game, there are a few changes you can try. RL time limit on planning is a big one. Or just saying "hey look, this is all of the data you're going to get in this time frame, so move on."

One thing I've heard about, but haven't tried yet, is a mechanic similar to the Leverage RPG. During the run, you can spend a point and say "hey, remember when?" to define what you've already done. An easy mechanic for this might be letting your decker roll up "research points" based on the time and success at researching. THe party can then spend research points to find (or decide) the answer to certain basic questions.

[Sponge]

A great way to handle this is to use a a posteriori system.

I like the player agency aspect of this, but on the other hand it seems like it could reduce legwork to farming points without much context or role-playing.

[CloisterCobra]

So I've been thinking about my little band of runners, and I've come to the realization that the fact that my players, or at least some of them, seem to hate going on runs where they don't have every single little bit of info possible. I'm talking floorplans, guard schedules, door codes/access keys, pictures of potential targets, butchers, bakers, and candlestick makers. They'll spend an hour having the decker go diving to try and find as much of this stuff as possible.

How do you guys gracefully say "You don't find that info" without making it seem like a cop-out? Some stuff, I can see that being a valid answer for (pictures of a shadowy behind-the-scenes syndicate players, for example), but stuff like building floorplans they've reasonably argued should be public record, and having the decker do a netdive every session to try and get to the target building/complex's node to get stuff like guard schedules and whatnot is getting a little tiring. Then again, since we're playing SR5, I may be doing that wrong, since I also haven't really been able to determine if the 100m "visible" radius in the Matrix is the absolute limit of where a decker can go (which would mean that if they wanted to get into the building's public node, like a museum's public info section for example, they'd have to be standing right in front of it, which does seem a bit silly).

Thoughts?

I used to be in a game similar to this, it was fine, but occasionally we would have an entire session of planning before a session of play, that was a bit much.

I suggest letting them plan to the nth degree and then hit them with unexpected events during the run. You've got your plans and guard patrols, that's great, but when the sneaky person finds a guardpost full of knocked out guards and clear signs that there is another Shadowrunning team onsite, what do they do?

Overall, they may need to work it out of their system, I'd let them.

Cheers
CC

[Blade]

I like the player agency aspect of this, but on the other hand it seems like it could reduce legwork to farming points without much context or role-playing.

Not necessarily. You can still roleplay some situations or give context. If a character befriends a guard or a secretary for planning pionts, you can roleplay this. But when they put the plan in motion, the player will be able to say "Remember when I got drunk with the guard? When he was completely wasted, I took his badge and made a copy."
You could go even further with a flashback mechanism, but that would bog down the game, and could create temporal inconsistencies.

That's why when I use that system I like the players to give at least some details about what they do in the legwork phase, to have a basic plan for the job and to come up with explanations on how their planning points can get them out of trouble.

[AccessControl]

A great way to handle this is to use a a posteriori system.
Instead of having your decker say "I'm looking for the blueprints", "I'm looking for the guard schedules", etc. You have him say "I gather information about the building.", roll his dice, and write down the number of hits. The other characters can do the same "I spend some time with the guards at the local bar", roll charisma+etiquette, write down the number of hits.

The number of hits go into a (or multiple, if you want to keep some details) "planning pool". Then when on the run, they can spend points from this planning pool to avoid trouble. For example:

"The backdoor is locked."
"When I did the rounds, I've noticed that the guy from the delivery company keeps the door unlocked when he's here."
"Ok, you spend 1 planning point and you're in. But you can hear a guard coming down the hallway."
"It's Barry, I've befriended him at the local bar. He shouldn't give us too much trouble..."
"Ok, spend 2 planning points."

Or, if you want to keep the control over the use of planning point:
"The backdoor is locked."
"How much planning point would it take to get it open?"
"One, you've noticed that the guy from the delivery company keeps the door unlocked when he's here."
"Ok, I spend it."

I actually really like this idea. I'm going to run it by the players to see if it'd work for them rather than just implementing it, but this sounds like it could help speed things up.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far, but don't hesitate to keep em coming if anyone's got any more!

[Fatum]

I'm surprised nobody has really pointed out the most obvious option. That is, in-game time. Data searches and hacks take a lot of time, so just place your runners on a schedule. It's not "get me that macguffin" but "get me that experimental macguffin that is to go into production tomorrow", not "kill me that guy" but "kill me that guy on the run before he escapes".

Shadowrun Campanion also offers an additional mechanic: each time you call upon your contacts or the contacts of your contacts for info, there's a chance something goes wrong. Someone slips a word, your talk is overheard by the wrong people, etc. Anyway, the target hears a blip. While these are few and wide apart, no need to worry; if they keep coming, most targets will go on alert, run disinformation or actively lash out against the runners.
I see no reason why the same can't apply to the Matrix. Someone broke into the security company host? Okay, maybe that's a random accident. Then similarly looking someone broke into the building's host? Maybe a coincidence, but better to perk ears up. That someone again orders ten tonnes of high-grade explosives from the corp's distant subsidiary? THEY'LL BE COMING THROUGH THE WALLS.

[BishopMcQ]

Fatum -- Having time-sensitive runs was mentioned above, along with some of the ways that pushing the urgent run can fail. That said, the time frame for data searches varies wildly between editions and based on what is being sought -- any where from a few minutes to days. Having 24-48 hours to do a job in SR3/5 means you get one data search if you're lucky, and you are probably better off hacking your way in during the approach. SR4, you could easily get a dozen searches done and still have time to probe the firewall slowly to avoid getting caught in the same timeframe.