[X] My Assistant

[Glyph]

I think the main goal of the setting should be to explain how shadowrunners continue to exist (Runner's Companion did a good job of explaining data balkanization and the glut of information, as well as hackers planting false information - I think the bit about RFID's in candy bars was imbecilic, though). With a world where large parts of it, including former first world nations, are like crime-ridden, corrupt third world nations; where other parts of it are wildlands populated by fantastical beasts; and where the pockets of civilization have unreliable databases and multiple corporations (and a few other players) working against each other. They have lost track of this sometimes, both early on (with the Tirs and JIS being police states all but impossible to run in) and later (emphasizing omnipresent surveillance to the point that the very existence of shadowrunners does not seem viable - or seems like too much work for what is supposed to be a fun game).

I don't think that keeping the setting trapped in the 80's is a good idea, though, even for pink mohawk-style players (who are just as likely to not like having cyberdecks reintroduced). The setting needs to continue to evolve, with less contrive mini-apocalypses and more logical development of the existing factions and plots. I think the real world needs to influence this development, but not to the extent of re-writing Shadowrun's history - Shadowrun should be considered not only a near-future setting, but a near-future alternate reality setting.

[Glyph]

Double Post.

[shonen_mask]

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly.
I believe that the drift towards PC is to be capable of casting a larger net to try and bring newer players. Then again, this might allienate the old ones.
I mean, Shadowrun Online is coming. How many of you believe that the game will be PG-13? I do. Because if the game was to show the violence, despair and horror of a true dystopia, they would lose all the potential high school kids as clients.

Another thing possibly unrelated, but I've heard stories that pen and paper RPG has becoming more and more niche (than what used to be, exactly because of the rise of MMOs), don't know how true this is.

They would loose all the audience who have no concept of horror, dystopia and despair.....

Who by the way is the majority of the potential media consumers.
Besides, roleplaying games are designed as empty canvases where palying groups propose an abstract to their game motives and build their story.
There is nothing stopping a person from designing a perfectly acceptable game world and playing within it and defining the rules of that world how they wish...

Mass appeal sells a game;
But uniqueness, creativity and support of thoes efforts by the published ruleset makes it legendary...

[CanRay]

It wasn't the Wi-Fi issues with SR4 that had me wondering "WTF happened to Shadowrun", but the Transhumanism and "Hug-A-Ghoul" attempts. Despite including current-day profanity, it felt more... Child-Friendly than old skool Shadowrun.

[Fatum]

Wi-Fi was present in 3E (reading Sprawl Survival Guide just now). Ghoul rights fighters existed even before that.
As for transhumanism, what exactly changed in the fourth about it?

[Neraph]

It wasn't the Wi-Fi issues with SR4 that had me wondering "WTF happened to Shadowrun", but the Transhumanism and "Hug-A-Ghoul" attempts. Despite including current-day profanity, it felt more... Child-Friendly than old skool Shadowrun.

Yeah, if you switch out the current-day profanity for the 6th World profanity it would simply be the standard evolution of what a decade would bring.

[CanRay]

Wi-Fi was present in 3E (reading Sprawl Survival Guide just now). Ghoul rights fighters existed even before that.
As for transhumanism, what exactly changed in the fourth about it?

Didn't have a problem with Wi-Fi. In fact, I even gave a good reason why SR1 had only cel phone technology going around in SR2050 (Infrastructure rebuilding.).

The Ghoul-Rights fights were around for awhile in Shadowrun, I freely admit and even admire. But it just seemed to pushed forward into the "Ghouls are people too", including all Ghouls, including the feral ones. Might just be my imagination.

Transhumanism, well, it just seemed that things were moving away from Cyberpunk and going towards shiny-happy thoughts and taking the dys out of dystopia. Again, might just be me.

[Glyph]

I think there was a meta-plot thingie where infected turned more feral - I think the pro-vampire/ghoul thing was getting to much for some of the writers.

I haven't found Shadowrun less dystopic - it never really was, which I actually found to be one of its strengths. Look at SR1 and see how things like Lone Star cops and security guards were humanized in their descriptions, rather than being one-dimensional jackbooted thugs. What I do miss is some of that wild west feel that the setting used to have - the surveillance state aspect of the game is too prominent, now. I miss shenanigans like that old picture of those gangers joy-riding a Lone Star APC with a hapless Lone Star officer tied upside-down to the hood.

[Moirdryd]

I've been having a think on this one and I think I've spotted where a few things have shifted than can easily be utilised to keep that "old SR universe" feeling we keep talking of.

Now, bare in mind I've never touched SR4 after an initial attempt to like it. So I could be wrong here.

It seems that what we have is not so much now the "future" of the 2000's instead of the 80's which in itself imparts a different flavour. But what we have is a setting that is now often Percieved through the Corporate or Glitterazi lense (even if it's not written from that angle). Why do I say this? Because everything "works" things fit together in certain ways and if something goes awry its fixed pretty quick because heavens forbid the contract is ever screwed up. That's how a lot of the sixth world is shown to be, or alluded to as (even when the odd commentary to the opposite is thrown in.)

The truth of the Sixth World (and certainly the one I run) is less shiny. Almost everything that happens at a mass consumer level is going to be done as cheaply as possible. Omnipresent Big Brother? Yeah it's kind of there, but it doesn't really work, because it's mostly an advertising tool and marketing data collector than any security facility. Even when it does do the anti criminal aspect there's still all that extraterritorial jurisdiction happening, corporate squabbles intersecting the Law Agencies and Security services. Those cameras probably don't work all if the time (just like some real life CCTV systems I've seen over the years) and even when they do, well, priority response proceedures for KE and the Star etc may or may not include an immediate (or even quick) response and depending on situation, people involved and so forth, follow up may be lacking. Because the truth is under the shiny chrome covers, the massively enticing media campaigns and the safe and certified communities of corp culture, a lot of the time it all Doesn't work, not altogether and not at the same time.

The System looks Pretty, it looks SOTA and everyone is told how impregnable and perfect it is and for the most part people believe it. They are told they are in a free and apply world where their Rights and Liberties are protected by a System that sees all and that this is a good thing and because they've grown up with it, been indoctrinated with it they've never really challenged it.
The System is imperfect. Omniescient is a goal not a reality. There are Loopholes, Blindspots, Cracks and Flaws waiting to be exploited because most of the time (like 99.9%) the System works well enough. It does okay and any big flaws are rapidly brushed aside in a media blip and maybe a little effort spent in an overhaul and investigation. But that's a far cry from impregnable. There are those who survive outside the System or exploit the odd flaw to get away with things, these are the SINless or the Gangs that prowl the Streets and Highways, they tend to get by because the System doesn't typically care about them or their activities (unless they stray into the better security areas, or the month's arrest quota needs topping up or the Corp needs some Metahuman test subjects that no one will miss). So to the people that live IN the System the system still works most of the time.

Then you have those who do more than "survive" they actively thrive in the flaws of the System. They use it's corruption, greed, vices of the people and just plain failings or vulnerabilities of the tech to prosper in the Sixth World (re: Organised Crime groups etc). They almost become Part of the System while breaking most of its rules and getting away with it while sacrificing the occasional pawn (or pinning it on a rival scapegoat). These groups thrive in this way of extorted power and often bloody rivalry covered by a civil veneer that is markedly to the Corporations they exist within and without the System of.

Finally you have those talented few, numbering something like .01% of any major population, probably less. They don't just survive (though plenty start that way) and sometimes they don't thrive. But what they do is rare. They utterly exploit every failing the System has. They operate, learn and grow in the imperfections of that perfect world the Megas tell their wageslaves they live in. They turn any aspect of the Sixth World into an advantage they can use (or they die) and the brighter the Media Glow the deeper the Shadows. These are the Shadowrunners....

[Sengir]

But it just seemed to pushed forward into the "Ghouls are people too", including all Ghouls, including the feral ones.

Being recognized as a person is not what it used to be, anyway...you know, SINless squatters are also people.

[shonen_mask]

I think the main goal of the setting should be to explain how shadowrunners continue to exist (Runner's Companion did a good job of explaining data balkanization and the glut of information, as well as hackers planting false information - I think the bit about RFID's in candy bars was imbecilic, though). With a world where large parts of it, including former first world nations, are like crime-ridden, corrupt third world nations; where other parts of it are wildlands populated by fantastical beasts; and where the pockets of civilization have unreliable databases and multiple corporations (and a few other players) working against each other. They have lost track of this sometimes, both early on (with the Tirs and JIS being police states all but impossible to run in) and later (emphasizing omnipresent surveillance to the point that the very existence of shadowrunners does not seem viable - or seems like too much work for what is supposed to be a fun game).

I don't think that keeping the setting trapped in the 80's is a good idea, though, even for pink mohawk-style players (who are just as likely to not like having cyberdecks reintroduced). The setting needs to continue to evolve, with less contrive mini-apocalypses and more logical development of the existing factions and plots. I think the real world needs to influence this development, but not to the extent of re-writing Shadowrun's history - Shadowrun should be considered not only a near-future setting, but a near-future alternate reality setting.

If there is a real world development process applied the goal would be two things and only thoes two;

Sell as many units as possible.
Producea newer version as often as possible.

The setting is wide enough for anyone to fill a story twists and turns, intregue and segways to other plots. What you don't want is a system that every two years or so, obsoletes your efforts to build a playable game framework....

Plus, I see plenty of people supporting D&D pathfinder, 3rd.ed, 4th ed, and now 5th ed.....

Does the mass production style make thoes games more enjoyable and the chatacters more enjoyable than Shadowrun? It must since I rarely see support for anything else around the playing tables.....

Game of Thrones? Really?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[Sponge]

The truth of the Sixth World (and certainly the one I run) is less shiny. Almost everything that happens at a mass consumer level is going to be done as cheaply as possible. Omnipresent Big Brother? Yeah it's kind of there, but it doesn't really work, because it's mostly an advertising tool and marketing data collector than any security facility. Even when it does do the anti criminal aspect there's still all that extraterritorial jurisdiction happening, corporate squabbles intersecting the Law Agencies and Security services. Those cameras probably don't work all if the time (just like some real life CCTV systems I've seen over the years) and even when they do, well, priority response proceedures for KE and the Star etc may or may not include an immediate (or even quick) response and depending on situation, people involved and so forth, follow up may be lacking. Because the truth is under the shiny chrome covers, the massively enticing media campaigns and the safe and certified communities of corp culture, a lot of the time it all Doesn't work, not altogether and not at the same time.

The System looks Pretty, it looks SOTA and everyone is told how impregnable and perfect it is and for the most part people believe it. They are told they are in a free and apply world where their Rights and Liberties are protected by a System that sees all and that this is a good thing and because they've grown up with it, been indoctrinated with it they've never really challenged it.
The System is imperfect. Omniescient is a goal not a reality. There are Loopholes, Blindspots, Cracks and Flaws waiting to be exploited because most of the time (like 99.9%) the System works well enough. It does okay and any big flaws are rapidly brushed aside in a media blip and maybe a little effort spent in an overhaul and investigation. But that's a far cry from impregnable. There are those who survive outside the System or exploit the odd flaw to get away with things, these are the SINless or the Gangs that prowl the Streets and Highways, they tend to get by because the System doesn't typically care about them or their activities (unless they stray into the better security areas, or the month's arrest quota needs topping up or the Corp needs some Metahuman test subjects that no one will miss). So to the people that live IN the System the system still works most of the time.

This is actually already SR4 as written, pretty much.

[Neraph]

This is actually already SR4 as written, pretty much.

Glad that I wasn't the only one who thought that.

[Moirdryd]

Cool enough then I suppose. It's just how I have always seen things. The original SR4 material I was exposed to was just bland to me compared to the style of SR2-3. Sr5 hasn't had the chance to develope the it's style yet, but I hope it's more of what I've postulated.

[Cain]

I actually didn't like the jump to an all-wifi matrix. Leaving aside the many rule issues, the Shadowrun Matrix was a bold, iconic view of the future. Like Star Trek, it might not age well, but it was a classic. But all of a sudden, that classic view of the future was replaced with a boring view of the present. We weren't given any really cool future tech to play with, we were given advanced cellphones and google glasses.

[Fatum]

But it just seemed to pushed forward into the "Ghouls are people too", including all Ghouls, including the feral ones. Might just be my imagination.

Well, isn't this kinda the point? A horrible disease turns people into abominations, and now you have to decide if you can just kill them like monsters, etc.

Transhumanism, well, it just seemed that things were moving away from Cyberpunk and going towards shiny-happy thoughts and taking the dys out of dystopia. Again, might just be me.

While I agree with you that the Fourth did a lot to move away from dystopia (which was kinda the point of my original post), I just don't really see what transhumanism as an ideology of surpassing the limitations of the human form has to do with it.
Otherwise, sure, you're right, 4e massively reduced the focus on the dregs of society, and all but removed the characteristic feelings of day to day hopelessness, fight against the system and community associated.

Look at SR1 and see how things like Lone Star cops and security guards were humanized in their descriptions, rather than being one-dimensional jackbooted thugs.

I think you have too narrow a definition of dystopia. Wageslaves are mostly decent people, too, this is kinda the point - the society is built in such a way that normal people are forced to participate in horrible things.

[tjn]

But all of a sudden, that classic view of the future was replaced with a boring view of the present. We weren't given any really cool future tech to play with, we were given advanced cellphones and google glasses.

I feel that it was something of either a failure of imagination or a failure at communication.

Because when I think AR I think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmjqudbf_RE

What SR described, I felt, was akin to "you have a constant connection to the matrix overlaid in your vision and there's like spam zones, and they're like bad and stuff."

AR has all the potential of being just as much of a classic view of the future in a similar manner to the way Gibson portrayed cyberspace, but different in ways so that it could accentuate current modern day fears of corporatization, social networks, virtual lives and the consequences of always being connected, privacy and surveillance concerns, big data or any thing else the developers wanted to explore. The metaphor for what AR could represent was not fully explored... so it ended up just being a button for the PCs to push to get information. Which... sucks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

The advantage of using Gibson's cyberspace is that Gibson already did all the heavy working on how to evoke cyberspace. AR needed that same groundwork laid because it's a new concept and couldn't just rest on what had came before, but I felt it never got it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I actually didn't like the jump to an all-wifi matrix. Leaving aside the many rule issues, the Shadowrun Matrix was a bold, iconic view of the future. Like Star Trek, it might not age well, but it was a classic. But all of a sudden, that classic view of the future was replaced with a boring view of the present. We weren't given any really cool future tech to play with, we were given advanced cellphones and google glasses.

To be fair, Wi-Fi was not global and all-encompassing. Wired systems are still out there.

[Fatum]

In 4e, most serious systems are still wired. A few can have much more than one host, too.
Matrix backbone is all wires, too.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In 4e, most serious systems are still wired. A few can have much more than one host, too.
Matrix backbone is all wires, too.

Yes Indeed... Pretty much how we see it too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Not of this Worl...]

I do not know what 4th edition rulebook you read (I never read the anniversary edition) but when I read 4th the default assumption was that everything was now suddenly wi-fi (which is not incredibly futuristic or realistic).

As for the setting changes. A theme of cyberpunk is that as society focuses on things other than itself, then society decays and crime and prejudice become more prevalent. In Transhumanism it is the opposite, as bodies become customizable then our physical differences and prejudices are supposed to disappear.

The other part that bothers me is the loss of high fantasy motifs. Cyberpunk is amoral or morally shades of grey, but High Fantasy is very black and white. In 1st through 3rd this was represented in spiritual ideals such as Totemic principles and Karma rewards for good moral choices on the "white" side versus "black" threats such as Horrors, Toxic spirits, blood magic, vampiric cabals, and insect totems. 4th edition kind of wiped all that out. Now you have the amoral or shades of grey and you are all just cogs in the machine with no hope of changing it.

You don't have to play the black vs. white fantasy plots, but a lot of players liked it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The other part that bothers me is the loss of high fantasy motifs. Cyberpunk is amoral or morally shades of grey, but High Fantasy is very black and white. In 1st through 3rd this was represented in spiritual ideals such as Totemic principles and Karma rewards for good moral choices on the "white" side versus "black" threats such as Horrors, Toxic spirits, blood magic, vampiric cabals, and insect totems. 4th edition kind of wiped all that out. Now you have the amoral or shades of grey and you are all just cogs in the machine with no hope of changing it.

You don't have to play the black vs. white fantasy plots, but a lot of players liked it.

See, I have never seen High Fantasy Morality being prevalent, even in the Editions of Shadowrun you espouse as such. Shadowrun has always been amoral to me, with thousands of shades of Grey. Which his VERY Cyperpunk.

[Stahlseele]

SR5 actually mentiones in the rules that GM's should dock Karma for "evil" choices made by characters and dock money for "good" choices made by characters as far as i remember . .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

SR5 actually mentiones in the rules that GM's should dock Karma for "evil" choices made by characters and dock money for "good" choices made by characters as far as i remember . .

Dock money for Moral Choices and Karma for Immoral Choices. Truly? That is just stupid on so many levels. *shakes head*

[Glyph]

I blame D&D and its pigeonholed alignment system, rather than high fantasy itself, for black-and-white morality. Conan the barbarian was a complex, grey-hat character if there ever was one. Even Lord of the Rings had moral ambiguity and complexity, with distrust between dwarves and elves, characters like Boromir who do bad things but redeem themselves, good characters like Saruman or Denethor who tragically fall but still retain some of their nobility, distrust between the elves and the dwarves even in the face of a common threat, a sympathetic villain in gollum, a hero who has feet of clay in the end, despite being one of the more morally upright characters, in Frodo, and so on.

Shadowrun has always seemed to emphasize a more noir morality - not in a sense of everything being muddled gray, but in the sense that people may try to do good things, but often wind up doing bad things, or having to choose the lesser of two evils, or having to make significant sacrifices to do the right thing, or even succumbing to their flaws and weaknesses in the end. But I don't think the game is amoral (although it can be played that way, just as it can be played with a more Manichean view of good and evil). Characters still have, and struggle with, morality, they just don't all conveniently fit into "good" and "evil" categories.