[X] My Assistant

[CitM]

You need to check SR4 again - background count rules were in Street Magic. Or perhaps I should specify that I don't mean extended core.

Okay maybe i mixed up some things, but i really think BGC is elemental and since it was in the SRM hotfix, it would be just right to have it in official errata.

[Sponge]

Those people who know should secretly include an unbound third party with a big mouth in their backstage discussions.

http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Cookie_Monster ?

[RHat]

Because logic does not have a chief benefit it in fact does not have any benefit at all for magic, so giving it equally to logic mages would balance things. right now since charsma gets literally everything that is not magc attribute or astral perception(intuition) they are horribly overpowered compared to logic traditions. Every single mention of charisma should be drain stat, not charisma as there is not a single logic mention. want to punch something in the astral, oh charisma, want more bound spirits, charisma, want more watchers/minions charisma, your astral limit is either because oh noes if it was just liogic it might have balanced astral combat instead of again heavily swaying it towards charisma, want to resist a totem penalty guess what its charisma.

and hell outside of magic for mages charisma is more useful, there is a reason people always are building face/mages and not engineer mages.

Edit sorry i found one thing logic does it helps you gather reagents. Lol one thing, compared to a paragraph of crap all of which individually are more important than that benefit and the balance is solid now?

Ah, yes, that's right - Logic lost it's Focus implication. Really, the fix for that is to bring that implication back in some form (such as letting you have more foci active without risk of addiction). Given that Banishing works now, I might also suggest setting Astral Combat to use Logic rather than Willpower (given that Logic is Astral Agility, this just makes sense). In combination with the non-Magic advantages of Logic, specifically the massive Logic skill list, the Mental limit, the ability to directly augment your Drain stat... A Dwarf Mage can get their Drain pool up to 16 without need for active spells or Centering. The leftover Essence after the Cerebral Boosters can be used for something that can be very useful - Cybereyes to get you alternate spell targeting methods, for example.

Taking the spirit advantage away from Charisma traditions doesn't fix anything, and taking the sprite advantage away from Charisma streams makes the looming inter-stream balance issues so very much worse.

[Jaid]

meh. all technomancers kinda suck right now anyways. hard to get worked up over the potential for charisma traditions to suck in the future when quite frankly, unless they massively buff technomancers they're *all* going to kinda suck in the future regardless.

[Smash]

meh. all technomancers kinda suck right now anyways. hard to get worked up over the potential for charisma traditions to suck in the future when quite frankly, unless they massively buff technomancers they're *all* going to kinda suck in the future regardless.

This is another supposed 5th Ed issue I just don't get. Is the main issue with technomancers in most people's eyes that they don't make Deckers totally redundant anymore? If so I can't really share the sentiment.

If anything Living persona still makes them too powerful.

[RHat]

This is another supposed 5th Ed issue I just don't get. Is the main issue with technomancers in most people's eyes that they don't make Deckers totally redundant anymore? If so I can't really share the sentiment.

If anything Living persona still makes them too powerful.

Oh, you're going to have to defend that statement. The basic issue, though, is that technomancers are simply less powerful AND less versatile than Deckers. a gap that begins in chargen and widens over time.

At least in SR4, they both had a place.

[Abschalten]

If anything Living persona still makes them too powerful.

Ahahahahahahahaha....

....oh wait. You were serious.

[Smash]

Oh, you're going to have to defend that statement. The basic issue, though, is that technomancers are simply less powerful AND less versatile than Deckers. a gap that begins in chargen and widens over time.

At least in SR4, they both had a place.

Technomancers can do everything a Decker can do as well as as all their Technomancer specific abilities (like stay online indefinately without fearing GOD) and sprites, which are better than agents. Their living persona is basically a free $200k+ deck at character generation which gets better, for free when you raise your stats which is what you'd be doing anyway.......... Seems pretty sweet to me.

Arguments like I have to have high charisma to pull a technomancer off don't really cut it for me as a valid argument because you have to have high stats of particular types for all builds. A St Samurai with 1 charisma has it's own weaknesses just like a Technomancer with 1 strength has theirs.

[Abschalten]

Technomancers can do everything a Decker can do as well as as all their Technomancer specific abilities (like stay online indefinately without fearing GOD) and sprites, which are better than agents. Their living persona is basically a free $200k+ deck at character generation which gets better, for free when you raise your stats which is what you'd be doing anyway.......... Seems pretty sweet to me.

Arguments like I have to have high charisma to pull a technomancer off don't really cut it for me as a valid argument because you have to have high stats of particular types for all builds. A St Samurai with 1 charisma has it's own weaknesses just like a Technomancer with 1 strength has theirs.

I wouldn't call that deck free, not after you've used a fairly high Priority slot to become a technomancer. You give up a pretty hefty opportunity cost in that regard. Then that "free" deck you get can barely be upgraded unless you a.) gut your Resonance abilities getting various implants or b.) spend oodles of karma to raise your attributes, meanwhile you're neglecting everything else, like your skills.

The deck the decker has is going to be upgraded more easily than the TM's living persona. And let's not forget the decker can actually provide protection to the team, something that TMs can't even do anymore.

The complex forms are a joke. If they are useful, they're typically way too high in their Fading values to be of any use. The one you mentioned Static Veil, just prevents your OS from going up over time, and does nothing to keep your score from going up due to your illegal actions. Which is great if you just want to sit there doing data searches at -2, but not so great if you want to actually be a hacker.

I could go on and on, but I've wasted too many words rebutting what is really an indefensible position - that technomancers can compete and keep up with a decker in SR5. The case against ever playing a techno in SR5, aside from RP purposes, is a slam dunk.

[RHat]

Technomancers can do everything a Decker can do as well as as all their Technomancer specific abilities (like stay online indefinately without fearing GOD) and sprites, which are better than agents. Their living persona is basically a free $200k+ deck at character generation which gets better, for free when you raise your stats which is what you'd be doing anyway.......... Seems pretty sweet to me.

Being a hacker is all a technomancer gets to do. And in that vein, they're worse at it (lower dice pools), and they're abilities are both generally weak and impose stupid-high Fading - and the few forms that are useful can just about knock you out from a single use. And for all that, there's a number of ridiculous costs associated with it.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you've really looked at the Technomancer rules as they compare to the Decker and Mage rules - especially if you can have the impression that sprites aren't horribly underpowered.

[tjn]

This is another supposed 5th Ed issue I just don't get. Is the main issue with technomancers in most people's eyes that they don't make Deckers totally redundant anymore? If so I can't really share the sentiment.

If anything Living persona still makes them too powerful.

Uhh... wow, do we have completely different takes on Technomancers in 5th.

What made hackers totally redundant in 4th was Adepts, not technomancers. I felt each had their strong points, but absent an infinite karma setting, it was close enough to balanced that I could work with players wanting to play either or add a few house rules to make everyone happy. In 5th, the only advantages a technomancer has are that bio-nodes can't be hacked, having a sprite for however long until GOD is automatically called on the sprite simply for existing, and the few tricks that resonance actions give you. However, in specific to complex forms, not only is the drain out of whack but every complex form requires two tests: one to thread the form and the second, which is a resisted roll, to actually do anything. Also since the second roll is limited by the successes of the first roll, this functions as a form of rolling for failure. On top of that, there is a significant amount of complex forms that be accomplished in another way, without drain or significant expenditure of character creation resources.

For those privileges, the character is going to be almost completely incompetent outside of the matrix, unable to slave any other icons to provide overwatch, unable to use cyber or bioware without serious impingement on his/her ability as a technomancer, unable to use normal decking while using anything technomancer related, and being unable to rig anything without going through submersion, and even then they're going to suck at it compared to a normal rigger until the character submerges twice more. Meanwhile that's Karma you're not spending on actually improving your role in the matrix, or on anything else, and to top it off, it's not like the character can spend Nuyen in any meaningful way to improve in his/her primary role. The only way to get programs is to submerge, which the character gets one program per submersion, which not only competes with other echos (see rigging), but is also a large karma sink. Oh, and guess what? The entire setting is prejudiced against technomancers and there is bounties on the character just for existing and some nations make it a crime to exist as a technomancer... which is punishable with death.

But what are Technomancers best at that are hard to replicate? Buffing/debuffing other matrix personas. Which turns out decently if you want to troll someone else, summoning a sprite to do everything for you, or working as sidekick to the team's decker. Trolling doesn't actually get anything done. Summoning sprites can either lead to narrative problems where the player tries to summon a sprite to do accomplish everything without any risk to the character, or it has tactical problems when it gives the player another set of actions per sprite per turn. Playing sidekick has spotlight issues in tabletop play, and unless the player specifically signed on for that, can cause OOC problems due to always being in the shadow of another player. Further, if the technomancer is using the debuffing to enable his decking, he's taking two actions (one to lower the resistance, one to do something) that generally takes a decker just one action.

I might be missing something... but for the life of me, I cannot think of a reason anyone would want to play a technomancer outside of infinite karma games, the general novelty and roleplaying experience of playing a technomancer, or if the team has already got a decker and the player specifically wants to play a supporting role. On top of that, it's also probably one of the most demanding roles on the player as far as rule mastery, so I can't even tell the new player to play the "bard" until they find a role they want to explore further.

[Smash]

Being a hacker is all a technomancer gets to do. And in that vein, they're worse at it (lower dice pools), and they're abilities are both generally weak and impose stupid-high Fading - and the few forms that are useful can just about knock you out from a single use. And for all that, there's a number of ridiculous costs associated with it.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you've really looked at the Technomancer rules as they compare to the Decker and Mage rules - especially if you can have the impression that sprites aren't horribly underpowered.

What do you expect a sprite to be able to do? I'm seeing them as free agents with special abilities. What more do they need.

I don't understand how a deck is easily upgraded when in fact they can't be upgraded at all, besides adding a program or 3 for some minor effects. So essentially if you want your deck to be better you have to throw your $250k deck in the bin and spend another $300K on another one! The games I play in that's probably hard that accumulating 100 karma for a few stat upgrades.

[RHat]

What do you expect a sprite to be able to do? I'm seeing them as free agents with special abilities. What more do they need.

I don't understand how a deck is easily upgraded when in fact they can't be upgraded at all, besides adding a program or 3 for some minor effects. So essentially if you want your deck to be better you have to throw your $250k deck in the bin and spend another $300K on another one! The games I play in that's probably hard that accumulating 100 karma for a few stat upgrades.

As far as sprites, I expect them to be balanced against their closest comparator - which is not agents, but rather spirits.

And decks are easily upgraded in that rather than spending a crapton of Karma, you can just go an buy yourself a new deck while using that Karma to actually get better at decking.

[Smash]

As far as sprites, I expect them to be balanced against their closest comparator - which is not agents, but rather spirits.

And decks are easily upgraded in that rather than spending a crapton of Karma, you can just go an buy yourself a new deck while using that Karma to actually get better at decking.

As opposed to the technomancer who can go spend his money on rocket launchers and VTOLs?

Karma is only limiting in campaigns where people get given too much money. you can quite easily halve the money you give out and double the karma and suddenly you have the opposite problem.

As for sprites being equivalent to spirits: What do you expect them to be able to do? And then think to yourself, if they do whatever that is, why would you play a decker?

[Jaid]

a technomancer can buy a VTOL or a rocket launcher (well, a rocket launcher anyways)... and then realize they don't have the skills. physical attributes, or augmentations to make that matter. frankly, i'd rather have the guy who can't hit the broad side of a barn *not* armed with a weapon that has chunky salsa rules attached to it.

with that said, if you meant that he can basically give up his share of the loot since he has no meaningful way to spend it, and give it to others that do have meaningful ways to spend it... i'm still waiting to hear how that's an advantage for a technomancer.

[Smash]

a technomancer can buy a VTOL or a rocket launcher (well, a rocket launcher anyways)... and then realize they don't have the skills. physical attributes, or augmentations to make that matter. frankly, i'd rather have the guy who can't hit the broad side of a barn *not* armed with a weapon that has chunky salsa rules attached to it.

with that said, if you meant that he can basically give up his share of the loot since he has no meaningful way to spend it, and give it to others that do have meaningful ways to spend it... i'm still waiting to hear how that's an advantage for a technomancer.

If you can't build a technomancer who can make use of VTOLs or heavy weapons mounted on said VTOLs then I don't know what to say. Yes you might have to wait a little bit but your unlikely to have the money to buy those things initially anyway.

This still just feels like 'we hate Technomancers now because you might actually choose to play a Decker instead' to me.

[Jaid]

ok, so you remember how we covered the fact that a technomancer needs:

- high priority for attributes since each mental attribute is rather important
- high priority for technomancy since otherwise you can't be a technomancer
- high priority for skills to cover the full set of skills that a regular decker needs (two skill groups, or 8 skills), plus either another skill group or two more skills. all of which need to be at high values.

and then you remember how we also covered that they can't effectively compensate for their low physical attributes with augmentations or magic, right?

and at this point, they also have to be human or elf, with at best moderately good edge.

none of this is sounding new to you, i hope?

so then, they need 8 skills *just to have basic levels of proficiency* in their specialized area.

now, in addition to this, i'm going to posit that in order to function on a basic level as a shadowrunner, they're also going to need a defensive skill, at least one offensive skill (general purpose), and at least 1-2 social skills, all at a moderately decent level. plus perception. more is better, of course; our current theoretical technomancer likely won't have any melee capability at all, for example, and stealth is a very useful skill to have as well.

so then... you tell me. what priority is going to skills that you expect them to have *any* room at all for heavy weapons which are unsuitable for general use? bearing in mind that even with priority A in attributes, the best they're going to be able to put into their mental attributes is a total of 16 points above baseline (so they could have 1/1/1/1/5/5/5/5, for example. of course, realistically, this individual will be useless in attacking others, useless in defending himself, and useless in any other sort of physical activity such as being stealthy or climbing a wall (both of which are examples of fairly common requirements in a shadowrun) unless you really max out the related skills as well.

or, maybe you could put attributes to B so you can put skills in A, and have only C for resonance. [sarcasm]i'm sure your 3 points of resonance and 1 complex form are going to make the average decker green with envy.[/sarcasm].

so then, maybe we put attributes to C, skills to A, and resonance to B? oh wait, now we only have *16* attributes to spread around. that's enough for 1/1/1/1/3/3/3/3 in the attribute line. yeah, i'm sure that decker, with only needing to max log and have a decent willpower for most tests (and being able to use augmentations to boost his lackluster physical stats and increase his log even further), is just *quaking* in his boots in terror that he might meet this guy in a dark (matrix) alley. plus, that still leaves us with only 2 complex forms. which isn't all that bad, really, since the most we can start off with given our trash stats is 3 anyways. also not that bad since most of the complex forms suck royally. too bad our fading resistance stat sucks unless we go human and dump edge. (elf isn't even an option if we want higher than 3 resonance from priorities).

so please, do tell... how is this competitive with a decker that needs two fewer skills, can spend priority A on resources and B on skills (C can go to race, there's not a *huge* difference between C attributes and D or E, and our decker doesn't need incredible attributes like our technomancer), gets to use a deck that swaps attributes and programs around at will, gets to use programs *at all*, doesn't need to spend karma or priority on an extra special attribute, and can upgrade both his core and secondary skill sets with augmentations? heck, if we *really* want to drive the point home, we *could* choose adept in priority D since we only really need 1-2 points of essence in augmentations, and now we've got even more bonuses (increase our limits, add to our hacking dice pools, etc) plus the ability to use qi focuses to adjust our abilities as needed.

[Redjack]

This is a niche fan board

Surely you mean that other board, not this one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Sponge]

or, maybe you could put attributes to B so you can put skills in A, and have only C for resonance.

I don't disagree that TMs have some tough choices in terms of priority, but IMO this is actually one of the better ones. Spend 3 points from Meta Priority D (Human 3) on Resonance, and some Karma on CFs. Sure, low Edge is a downside, but there's a downside to any other selection, and this is one of the cheapest downsides (karma-wise) to address and you have some pretty strong dice pools out of the gate.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Any Edge value below 3 and you are asking for trouble, in my opinion (at least this wwas true on 4th edition, haven't had the chance to play 5th yet).

[Sengir]

Technomancers can do everything a Decker can do

Like running programs, you mean?

as well as as all their Technomancer specific abilities (like stay online indefinately without fearing GOD) and sprites, which are better than agents

Being able to put the GOD timer on pause is not an advantage, it's a stopgap measure against the shitload of OS sprites generate.


Did you know that Resonance actions actually do produce OS? It's just that when the guys at GOD have a TM on their radar, the reaction is like "meh, that dude will fry his own brain with Fading in the next few minutes"

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you can't build a technomancer who can make use of VTOLs or heavy weapons mounted on said VTOLs then I don't know what to say. Yes you might have to wait a little bit but your unlikely to have the money to buy those things initially anyway.

This still just feels like 'we hate Technomancers now because you might actually choose to play a Decker instead' to me.

Entertainingly, it was always the other way around for me.... I ALWAYS chose Hacker over Technomancer in SR4A. Yes, a TM is strong and their sprites are pretty cool, but my Cyberlogician ALWAYS gave the TM a run for his money, and was often better than he was, both IN the Matrix, and Most Definitely OUT of the Matrix.

I had to come up with reasons to play a TM in SR4A. And in the end, I never actually played one, because Hackers were just better in most ways, in my opinion. *shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Any Edge value below 3 and you are asking for trouble, in my opinion (at least this wwas true on 4th edition, haven't had the chance to play 5th yet).

Really? In my book, any Edge value above 3 was a waste of resources. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[psychophipps]

Thanks to all that have commented on this thread thus far, y'all have saved me $60! You're like GEICO, but more interesting.

[Jaid]

I don't disagree that TMs have some tough choices in terms of priority, but IMO this is actually one of the better ones. Spend 3 points from Meta Priority D (Human 3) on Resonance, and some Karma on CFs. Sure, low Edge is a downside, but there's a downside to any other selection, and this is one of the cheapest downsides (karma-wise) to address and you have some pretty strong dice pools out of the gate.

sure, hope you don't mind only being able to choose human. you now have what is perhaps least crappy option for technomancer.

oh, and don't mind the fact that you're still about as effective outside of matrix actions as a newborn baby, and that the decker is both more versatile (can do more things outside of the matrix, is very flexible in the matrix compared to you with the ability to rapidly change their setup to match the situation) and more effective than you (better dice pools). and can add insult to injury by being an adept, and thus pushing even further back your theoretical extremely far off superiority in the matrix that may someday come.

there's basically 2 possibilities: one, they will introduce some completely ridiculous broken nonsense for technomancers, and technomancers become situationally extremely powerful but still completely useless outside of the matrix and mediocre in any matrix task they don't have a special superpower in. two, they don't, and technomancers are just trash compared to deckers all the time.