[X] My Assistant

[Jack VII]

Maybe some kind of "rules wiki" as a live document that people could contribute to (with probably some amount of moderation/validation) could work. There'd be plenty of devilsome and time-consuming details involved - it would probably require some detailed annotation concerning what's official and/or approved and what's still "pending suggestion", voting/"liking" on suggestions, a trusted review committee, and viewing it might have to be login-restricted to those who have purchased a PDF - but ultimately it could alleviate a lot of the apparent bottlenecks involved in finding and fixing stuff.

+11ty Billion

[Fatum]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you defending Catalyst for putting out a broken product and then not offering any official fixes for over 6 months?

I am defending CGL for putting out the best ever Shadowrun edition with just a couple of minor issues, which they addressed in such a prompt manner.

It just comes off as lazy and insulting when there are errors noted in the eratta thread from day one of the PDF release that somehow didn't make it into this eratta document, including several instances where changing merely one word can make a huge difference in understanding the rules as intended, but they didn't address them.

It might surely "come off as lazy and insulting" to us that it takes half a year to push through an errata addressing the errors found on day one after release (and some even prior), all the while adding a few bloopers more, but the fine folks up at CGL are professionals, and who are we to tell them how to do their job?

[KCKitsune]

I just wish they would bring back the cyber/bioware essence discount for the type that has the lower Essence. Without it, Sammies become less worth playing. *MagicRun becomes more real every time they don't help the sammies.*

Also for the love of God, PLEASE fix the damn Wireless bonuses. You need them to make SENSE! Why would a 'Runner run with wireless crap on?!? It's like advertising "Hey look at us! We're doing illegal drek!"

[binarywraith]

I am defending CGL for putting out the best ever Shadowrun edition with just a couple of minor issues, which they addressed in such a prompt manner.

It might surely "come off as lazy and insulting" to us that it takes half a year to push through an errata addressing the errors found on day one after release (and some even prior), all the while adding a few bloopers more, but the fine folks up at CGL are professionals, and who are we to tell them how to do their job?

If this is your idea of a 'couple minor issues', remind me not to let you build anything I might have to interact with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

My vote's still out on best ever edition until they get around to publishing the splatbooks with the actual rules in them for stuff they used in the fiction sections of the core book. Although given the terrible, terrible statting on some of the stuff (especially That Damn Carbine) in GH3, I'm not holding my breath that anyone in charge of rules writing at CGL today is capable of operating a pocket calculator. As for 'who are we to tell them how to do their job?'

We're the people who pay them. If they can't generate and support a quality product, we're the people whose business they're going to lose, to their regret.

That said, hey, we got some errata. Woo! Slightly less shit I have to houserule to make the game playable!

[Samoth]

I am defending CGL for putting out the best ever Shadowrun edition with just a couple of minor issues, which they addressed in such a prompt manner.

Our definitions of "prompt" vary greatly.

It might surely "come off as lazy and insulting" to us that it takes half a year to push through an errata addressing the errors found on day one after release (and some even prior), all the while adding a few bloopers more, but the fine folks up at CGL are professionals, and who are we to tell them how to do their job?

Your right, my purchasing dollar as a consumer shouldn't matter.

[Jack VII]

I think you guys are kind of missing Fatum's sarcasm...

[DrZaius]

Your right, my purchasing dollar as a consumer shouldn't matter.

Your dollars buy you a certain amount of griping, which you are in danger of exceeding.

I can't remember where I read it, but it reminds me of the anecdote of "Two people arguing about how many words Inuits have for snow, without either knowing an Inuit, or having seen snow, or really anything to do with the base of the argument".

I get that you're frustrated with the product CGL released. You also feel the errata is incomplete. My wager would be that they know that. Why isn't the entire errata thread incorporated into that document? I DON'T KNOW. I'M NOT IN PUBLISHING. That's the crux of the argument. This is a niche fan board of a niche game of a niche hobby. As pointed out before, the majority of the people involved are freelancers, i.e. people who get paid to do something else with the majority of their time. Do you know what would make me, personally, hesitate to dedicate my free time to a pursuit? Having people complain that the extra work I'm doing isn't going fast enough for their tastes.

YMMV.

-DrZ

[Fatum]

This is a niche fan board of a niche game of a niche hobby.

Agreed, this alone should silence any and all cavils.

As pointed out before, the majority of the people involved are freelancers, i.e. people who get paid to do something else with the majority of their time. Do you know what would make me, personally, hesitate to dedicate my free time to a pursuit? Having people complain that the extra work I'm doing isn't going fast enough for their tastes.

There is some part of me that doubts it takes more than a dozen writer man-hours to plug the most obvious holes in the rules (which have been specially prepared and listed in a separate thread at that), and more than a week month playtesting to check if the suggested fixes contradict the existing rules, which to that part of me suggests the six month reaction time is dictated purely by the professionalism of the publisher's inner workings. But then I realize I am not in publishing, either, and I silence that part with extreme prejudice.

[RHat]

There is some part of me that doubts it takes more than a dozen writer man-hours to plug the most obvious holes in the rules (which have been specially prepared and listed in a separate thread at that), and more than a week month playtesting to check if the suggested fixes contradict the existing rules, which to that part of me suggests the six month reaction time is dictated purely by the professionalism of the publisher's inner workings. But then I realize I am not in publishing, either, and I silence that part with extreme prejudice.

I'm pretty sure part of the delay is set by all the other projects they have going on and contracted - working through freelancers, who are given a contracted deadline on the specific thing they are working on, is necessarily less flexible than working with in-house writers you can shuffle around as needed (not trying to insult the freelancers here at all - you guys are awesome, and I really want to thank Patrick for the extra work we all know he did here). So when you have to start looking at putting Errata generation into an already active and highly inflexible project schedule which includes:

[...]the Beginner Box Set, Stolen Souls, Splintered State, Gun H(e)aven 3, Run & Gun, Coyotes, Runners Toolkit: Alphaware, Shadowrun: Crossfire, Missions, Street Grimoire (upcoming magic core rulebook), and more[...]

[source: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index....68009#msg268009]

I highly doubt it was remotely as simple as you make it out to be.

[Samoth]

Your dollars buy you a certain amount of griping, which you are in danger of exceeding.

Thanks for telling me what I'm allowed to expect from a product I spent real life dollars on...? It's just a game and doesn't impact my life in any meaningful way, but I don't think it's expecting too much to receive the product I paid my own money for in the form it should be used.

[Fatum]

I'm pretty sure part of the delay is set by all the other projects they have going on and contracted - working through freelancers, who are given a contracted deadline on the specific thing they are working on, is necessarily less flexible than working with in-house writers you can shuffle around as needed (not trying to insult the freelancers here at all - you guys are awesome, and I really want to thank Patrick for the extra work we all know he did here).

It could also happen that a certain freelancer who started the thread for gathering the errors, is listed in the special thanks section, and then presents it to the general public, did most if not all of the writing. Which, judging by the issues pointed out in this very thread, nobody bothered to really edit or playtest. It'd actually stand to reason to question the degree of his influence on this errata appearing at all, minding the precedents.
But of course, knowing CGL's extreme professionalism, we can but guess and celebrate getting this fine work.

[RHat]

It could also happen that a certain freelancer who started the thread for gathering the errors, is listed in the special thanks section, and then presents it to the general public, did most if not all of the writing. Which, judging by the issues pointed out in this very thread, nobody bothered to really edit or playtest. It'd actually stand to reason to question the degree of his influence on this errata appearing at all, minding the precedents.

I find the suggestion that the creation of Errata would be a one-person process to be frankly ludicrous.

[KCKitsune]

I find the suggestion that the creation of Errata would be a one-person process to be frankly ludicrous.

I find the idea of it taking six months to publish this 'errata' to be ludicrous.

As others are saying, there is a 30+ page thread detailing all of the frak ups. They couldn't have just looked at that and go "Hey guys... we might have messed up on a few things." and FIXED them?

[RHat]

I find the idea of it taking six months to publish this 'errata' to be ludicrous.

As others are saying, there is a 30+ page thread detailing all of the frak ups. They couldn't have just looked at that and go "Hey guys... we might have messed up on a few things." and FIXED them?

And who was supposed to immediately turn around to do that? Other than Hardy, I don't think there's anyone who'd be in a position to do so; freelancers had contracts and deadlines to worry about, and there might not have been any mechanism in said contracts for Catalyst to say "hey, can you actually work on this instead?".

[Smash]

I find the idea of it taking six months to publish this 'errata' to be ludicrous.

As others are saying, there is a 30+ page thread detailing all of the frak ups. They couldn't have just looked at that and go "Hey guys... we might have messed up on a few things." and FIXED them?

It would take 6 months to seperate the wheat from the chaff in that thread.

Considering all the 'Wireless is stoopid because of NOW' bollocks that permeates the 5th Ed talk I'm surprised at the speed that it came out or that it came out at all!

[Shinobi Killfist]

Imagine applying the same to magicians and spirits for a second - certainly you can see where the issues with inter-tradition balance would set in, yes?

It would help balance the traditions quite a bit, which are currently fairly unbalanced towards Shamans. Though in this case logic helps technomancers a lot as they are already stretched hard in attribute dependency with charisma being he one stat in the mental arena they can dump the most especially now.

[RHat]

Really? I don't see how taking away the chief benefit Charisma traditions have helps balance, particularly when that balance is pretty solid. That would horribly overpower Logic traditions.

[Samoth]

It would take 6 months to seperate the wheat from the chaff in that thread.

Considering all the 'Wireless is stoopid because of NOW' bollocks that permeates the 5th Ed talk I'm surprised at the speed that it came out or that it came out at all!

BS, the mods did a great job of keeping that thread to just eratta discussion, and if you need 6 months to read a couple of pages of an internet thread you might want to get your eyesight checked.

[Shortstraw]

And who was supposed to immediately turn around to do that? Other than Hardy, I don't think there's anyone who'd be in a position to do so; freelancers had contracts and deadlines to worry about, and there might not have been any mechanism in said contracts for Catalyst to say "hey, can you actually work on this instead?".

Ze Germans? Get on the phone to Pegasus and say "yeah, we made some mistakes and since you are going to fix them anyway we will give you monies to fix them now so we can use them in our next printing".

[Jack VII]

Ze Germans? Get on the phone to Pegasus and say "yeah, we made some mistakes and since you are going to fix them anyway we will give you monies to fix them now so we can use them in our next printing".

On that note, I am interested to know what the deal is with some of the reported changes in the German edition that did not make it into this errata document.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

After six months I surely expected more than a four page document.
Also, people really need to take their sarcasm-meters to an annual check-up.

[Bigity]

EDIT: Nevermind, can't read.


Also, hot damn I am building all my shooters around firing bursts with simple actions every pass.

[Jaid]

EDIT: Nevermind, can't read.


Also, hot damn I am building all my shooters around firing bursts with simple actions every pass.

the obvious choice is to take aim (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

but yeah, looks like if you want errata for all the stuff that's borked, you're probably best off checking the missions forums - CGL can ignore borked stuff all they want, but missions kinda has to work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Bigity]

Yea, I keep trying to get myself fired up for SR5 - and then stuff happens.

Like the example combat spell cast in the box using SR4 rules (where successes add to the base damage). Or no rigging rules despite having a rigger character provided as a starter character.


EDIT: Corrected statement about the combat spell.

[Jack VII]

Like the example combat spell cast in the box using SR4 rules (where successes still pump up the damage).

Uh... I hate to point this out, but successes do pump up the damage. In fact, they're the only component of the damage value. The problem is that they were including the Force of the spell as a base damage value. But yes, I agree, QC is a pretty big concern on my part.