Decker vs Decker Options

[Lobo0705]

So - this hasn't happened yet in my game, but I'm curious as to the general consensus what the correct answer is when it does.

My question is, are two deckers who are running silently effectively never able to engage in cybercombat as long as they are more than 100 meters apart in the meat world?

The rules are that you can't spot a silent icon more than 100 meters away - so, when a decker uses his deck to access the matrix, that icon disappears and turns into his persona.

So, lets assume we have two deckers - call them Frick and Frack. Frick is sitting at home, cruising around the matrix, when he sees his nemesis, the street samurai Bob, walking down the street, with his commlink not running silent. Bob is 5km away from Frick. Frick can attempt to hack the commlink - taking into account the noise. Assume that Frack is Bob's friend, and is walking down the street next to Bob, but he is running silent.

Frick cannot see Frack, and assuming that Frick is running silent, Frack cannot see Frick - because the distance between the two deckers is 5km.

So even if Frack wants to protect Bob's commlink (apart from having it slaved to his deck) he can't actually interfere with Frick - unless Frick decides to stop running silently.

The only thing Frack or Bob can do is to start running silently - at which point Frick can't bother them anymore.

Am I interpreting that incorrectly?

[DeathStrobe]

You can't see them for free over 100 meters. They have to roll to spot each other, this also applies if they're running hidden from each other within 100 meters. But over 100 meters, they'll have to deal with noise while making their Matrix perception test. Also, keep in mind, that running hidden gives both deckers a -2 to all Matrix actions, so if one is spotted, it might be beneficial to stop running hidden, just to not suffer that -2 so they can find the other decker quicker to start to engage in cybercombat.

[Lobo0705]

You can't see them for free over 100 meters. They have to roll to spot each other, this also applies if they're running hidden from each other within 100 meters. But over 100 meters, they'll have to deal with noise while making their Matrix perception test. Also, keep in mind, that running hidden gives both deckers a -2 to all Matrix actions, so if one is spotted, it might be beneficial to stop running hidden, just to not suffer that -2 so they can find the other decker quicker to start to engage in cybercombat.

Here is my only question - my understanding of the Matrix rules if you look at the Matrix Perception test is that any icon that is NOT running silent is automatically spotted within 100 meters, and over 100 meters would need to be spotted with a Matrix Perception Check.

Any icon running silently can ONLY be spotted with a Matrix Perception check and ONLY if it is within 100 meters.

If that last part sentence is incorrect (which it may be) - could you point out in the rules where it says that?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The text does support your view, Lobo0705...

If you’re trying to find an icon that’s running silent (or if you’re running silent and someone’s looking for you), the first thing you need to do is have some idea that a hidden icon is out there. You can do this with a hit from a Matrix Perception Test; asking if there are icons running silent in the vicinity (either in the same host or within 100 meters) can be a piece of information you learn with a hit.

[Sponge]

If that last part sentence is incorrect (which it may be) - could you point out in the rules where it says that?

Matrix Spotting Table, top of p241: Spotting a Running Silent icon is the same procedure regardless of the range.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Matrix Spotting Table, top of p241: Spotting a Running Silent icon is the same procedure regardless of the range.

Good to Know... Thanks Sponge... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Lobo0705]

Ok - and not to be a pain - and we can probably just chalk it up to bad editing, but what confuses me is the section on page 235 on Running Silent:

"If you are trying to find an icon that's running silent, the first thing you need to do is have some idea that a hidden icon is out there. You can do this with a hit from a Matrix Perception test: asking if there are icons running silent in the vicinity (either in the same host or within 100 meters) can be a piece of information you learn with a hit.

Once you know a silent running icon is in the vicinity, the next step is to actually find it...."

Emphasis mine - here it seems to indicate that in order to find the icon, it must be within "the vicinity" which was defined as "in the same host or within 100 meters".

Mind you, I'm happy to have it interpreted the other way, but it leads to questions like - what exactly do you need to spot a silent running icon if it isn't within 100 meters?

Assume someone is looking for a car's icon. They know the license plate. Can they make a Simple Matrix Perception to try to find out whether or not it is on the grid, and then an Opposed Matrix Perception test to spot it?

Or is it just an Opposed Test?

Is a just one opposed test too easy to find silent icons? What if Lone Star is trying to track down a Shadowrunner by their commlink?

What information is necessary for them to do a Matrix Perception test and find it?

[RHat]

That line offers one way to find hidden icons, but does not claim to offer the only way.

[Lobo0705]

That line offers one way to find hidden icons, but does not claim to offer the only way.

Ok - I can totally see that - just looking for input as to what you (and others) would think would be the way you would handle searching for silent icons more than 100 meters away.

How much information would you need? I realize this isn't a hard and fast rule, just looking for opinions.

I want to find a car's icon. Can I find it with just the license plate?

I want to find someone's commlink or deck - what info do you think would be enough to find it over 100 meters away?

[Moirdryd]

For the Liscence Plate the number should be sufficient (especially as it is usually linked to a transponder system that includes that same data on broadcast.

The Commlink would require the comm number, the identity of the owner or something similar.

A deck? The name or iconography of the Persona / Avatar Icon. Some piece of code associated with the deck.

[BishopMcQ]

I want to find someone's commlink or deck - what info do you think would be enough to find it over 100 meters away?

A commcode or the Trace action right, depending on whether you are trying to find it in the matrix or the real world...

[RHat]

For the Liscence Plate the number should be sufficient (especially as it is usually linked to a transponder system that includes that same data on broadcast.

The Commlink would require the comm number, the identity of the owner or something similar.

A deck? The name or iconography of the Persona / Avatar Icon. Some piece of code associated with the deck.

That works as requirements to find some specific one. To find an unkown deck, though, such as "the device being used to hack my friend's comm", different criteria would be required. Perhaps "owner of this mark"?

[Moirdryd]

Yep, owner of the Mark or even Source of that Hostile Action (I'd see evidence of an action as falling in to the Code requirement). A lot of the Matrix system is left deliberately loose by the look of it to allow for inventive play by Deckers with how and what they do outside of the hard dice rolls. Matrix perception being a great example of this as the given chart states it's an example list.

I often treat it as a freeform guide Ruleset much like Mage: the Acension magic system.

[Smash]

That works as requirements to find some specific one. To find an unkown deck, though, such as "the device being used to hack my friend's comm", different criteria would be required. Perhaps "owner of this mark"?

I've always gone with the idea that to find a silent icon more than 100m away you have to have seen it on the matrix before, but generally if the device is a fair way away then the noise makes is pretty damn hard anyway.

I kind of like it that way: It provides Deckers with some protection from Corps they may have encountered before and should encourage people to not be so paranoid about having their wireless on............

[RHat]

I've always gone with the idea that to find a silent icon more than 100m away you have to have seen it on the matrix before, but generally if the device is a fair way away then the noise makes is pretty damn hard anyway.

I kind of like it that way: It provides Deckers with some protection from Corps they may have encountered before and should encourage people to not be so paranoid about having their wireless on............

Except the impunity that provides a decker Data Spiking you from 200m away is very problematic.