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> SR5: Reworking PAN Rules, House Rule Concept
BlackJaw
post Feb 19 2014, 05:39 PM
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So one of the things I was sorry to see returning from SR4 was the limited number of connections a device can handle. I personally feel it's more complexity than is required for most characters (IE: Street Samurai with a lot of implants and gear may need two or more commlinks to protect all their devices,) the exception being drone riggers and RCC special features. In particular the current rules make it difficult for a Decker to act as matrix overwatch with his Deck limited to (a typically low) Rating x 3 devices for his deck, which flies in the face of the examples of street samurai letting their Decker teammate protect their gear on runs. What I'd hoped for was a system more like Counterspelling, where the team expert can protect most of the group as long as they stay close.

PAN House Rule
Pan rules work more or less as described in the book but with one major change: Ignore the current limit on number of devices that can be connected to the PAN. A Commlink, and by extension devices like Decks and RCCs which can act as a commlink, can have any number of devices slaved to it, but all those devices must be within 100 meters of the Commlink. Devices that become too distant immediately loose the benefits of the PAN but remain on the matrix. They automatically reconnect to the PAN once they are within range again. With this house rule, you can't leave you gun at home and expect it to still be on your PAN, but the Decker can protect his entire team's set of devices as long he remains within 100 meters of them. It also eliminates the need to count devices to see if you've hit your device's connection cap.

This house rule needs a tweak for Drones and RCCs. RCCs are now defined to have special Drone Control Channels equal to their device rating x3. Drones using this channels gain all the benefits of the PAN at any range as long as they on the matrix, and gain all the special RCC benefits like Autosoft sharring, drone hopping, etc. Drones not on a Control Channel do not gain these special RCC benefits, but can still benefit from the basic PAN enhanced matrix defenses while within 100 meters. Changing a drone between being a simple slave or using a Control Channel can be done as a Change Device Mode Simple action on the drone itself, as part of a Reconfigure action on the RCC, or even through the use of the Configurator cyberprogram.

WANs still work exactly as described in the book.
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Lobo0705
post Feb 19 2014, 05:44 PM
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I like it - my only "problem" would be that a decker can no longer remotely protect his teams' equipment I don't know if that is a bad thing as of yet, but it does mean that the team can't split up, or they lose the decker's protection.

Your thoughts on that?
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BlackJaw
post Feb 19 2014, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE (Lobo0705 @ Feb 19 2014, 10:44 AM) *
I like it - my only "problem" would be that a decker can no longer remotely protect his teams' equipment I don't know if that is a bad thing as of yet, but it does mean that the team can't split up, or they lose the decker's protection.

Your thoughts on that?

Immediate thought: If you're going to split off from the team's Decker, you best have a rating 6 commlink on you.

Longer answer: Right now, under RAW, the Decker can only remotely protect Device Rating x 3 devices, and Decks typically have a much lower device rating than commlinks. A decent deck at character creation might have a rating 4 (12 objects for the entire team?) or rating 3 (9 objects.) I suspect a lot of teams are using extra Commlinks to extend these connections, which looses out on the Sleaze rating of the deck for hidding icons, but at least lets the Decker (if he is owner of the commlink) be able to respond to enemy hacker alerts on behalf of the team. In theory this still works under my house rule, so if you know someone is going to need to be farther away, the Decker should hand them a commlink to take with them. As the owner of the link, it will use his ability scores, and alert him (over the matrix as it's not in his PAN) if it or things slaved to it are under matrix attack.

One of the things I like about this potential house rule is that it makes Personal Area Networks actually about Personal Area. Right now under RAW, your PAN can include a device on the far side of the planet, yet it's icon can some how be integrated into your Persona or PAN icon? It also provides further encouragement for the Decker to go on runs, which I think should continue to be encouraged.
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Epicedion
post Feb 19 2014, 06:09 PM
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You may want to do one or more of the following:

1) Deck can protect Device Rating x2 PANs (ie, commlinks with stuff attached)
2) Instead of slaving and taking over for the protection of a device, the Decker can "counterhack" in the way that a Mage might counterspell, adding defense dice versus a hacking attempt. He'd be able to accomplish this either in the immediate (100m) area while in AR, or anywhere in the Matrix in VR.
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BlackJaw
post Feb 19 2014, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (Epicedion @ Feb 19 2014, 11:09 AM) *
You may want to do one or more of the following:

1) Deck can protect Device Rating x2 PANs (ie, commlinks with stuff attached)
2) Instead of slaving and taking over for the protection of a device, the Decker can "counterhack" in the way that a Mage might counterspell, adding defense dice versus a hacking attempt. He'd be able to accomplish this either in the immediate (100m) area while in AR, or anywhere in the Matrix in VR.

Idea 1 is actually something I contemplated for a "Tacnet" cyberprogram. It does extend the ability of the Decker (or tehcnomancer with an echo) to protect the group's gear, but the more I thought about it, the more I disliked counting connections. I figured the 100 meter idea might actually be easier in play without really breaking things. "Are you near the Decker? Did you slave your gear to him? Cool, he's got you covered."

Idea 2 feels too much like counterspelling to me, but would probably make a really cool Technomancer ability.
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Epicedion
post Feb 19 2014, 06:22 PM
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Regarding my #2 option, I was also removing the meat attribute from defense in my own house rules (as seen in Overhaul thread below). Without getting into the rework surrounding damage, this would mean that a commlink would provide

Rating + Firewall (that is, Rating x2).

Also, I made it such that you can't see anything subscribed to a PAN without first putting a mark on it. While the commlink is still operational, any device below it is protected with its own Rating + (Commlink Rating + Firewall). That is, a standard-grade smartlink (rating 2) with a rating 4 commlink would get 10 dice to defend with.

If the commlink ever crashes, all its device icons pop out into the free matrix and are attackable on their own (generally really crappy) statline.

Make it so that the decker gets a "counterhacking" pool equal to his Hacking skill. Each turn (pass?) he can use a reaction to allocate dice to defend against a potential hack.

So if a hacker tries to crash the samurai's wired reflexes, the samurai with his rating 6 commlink and alphaware cyber would get 15 dice to defend

I'd also make it so that within 100 meters, the deck could contribute its Sleaze rating to some number of PANs to help hide them.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Feb 19 2014, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Feb 19 2014, 11:03 AM) *
Immediate thought: If you're going to split off from the team's Decker, you best have a rating 6 commlink on you.

Longer answer: Right now, under RAW, the Decker can only remotely protect Device Rating x 3 devices, and Decks typically have a much lower device rating than commlinks. A decent deck at character creation might have a rating 4 (12 objects for the entire team?) or rating 3 (9 objects.) I suspect a lot of teams are using extra Commlinks to extend these connections, which looses out on the Sleaze rating of the deck for hidding icons, but at least lets the Decker (if he is owner of the commlink) be able to respond to enemy hacker alerts on behalf of the team. In theory this still works under my house rule, so if you know someone is going to need to be farther away, the Decker should hand them a commlink to take with them. As the owner of the link, it will use his ability scores, and alert him (over the matrix as it's not in his PAN) if it or things slaved to it are under matrix attack.

One of the things I like about this potential house rule is that it makes Personal Area Networks actually about Personal Area. Right now under RAW, your PAN can include a device on the far side of the planet, yet it's icon can some how be integrated into your Persona or PAN icon? It also provides further encouragement for the Decker to go on runs, which I think should continue to be encouraged.


I just get around that by not having matrix linked devices. *shrug*
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Epicedion
post Feb 19 2014, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 19 2014, 01:44 PM) *
I just get around that by not having matrix linked devices. *shrug*


How is that in any way useful to a house rule discussion?
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BlackJaw
post Feb 19 2014, 06:52 PM
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Actually right now I'm thinking about a Technomancer ability which works like counterspelling and gives them a unique function to replace their inability to use their Living Persona as a Master in a PAN. Being able to add bonus dice from a pool to aid matrix defenses would work well. While an Echo that works almost exactly like Counterspelling comes to mind first, I think I'd want this to be available to starting players, so it either needs to be a new Resonance Action, or it needs to be a Complex Form.

Let's try building it as a Complex Form.

RESONANCE SHIELD
Target: Self • Duration: S • FV: L
You build up a bulwark of protective resonance which you can use to protect icons from matrix threats. Make a simple Software + Resonance [Level] test. On a success you gain a Resonance Shield at that level, which acts as a dice pool with a number of dice equal to it's level, plus any net successes. This shield remains as long as you sustain the power or until all the dice in it are used up. When an icon you are protecting makes a matrix defense roll, you can choose to add any number of dice to the icon's roll, but those dice are used up. When in AR, you can extend your protection to any icon within 100m of you. When in VR, you can extend your protection to an icon in the same Host as you, or within 100m of your Persona.

EDIT: Power is sustained, not permanent.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Feb 19 2014, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE (Epicedion @ Feb 19 2014, 11:50 AM) *
How is that in any way useful to a house rule discussion?


Perfectly useful... no channels/devices connections to track at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Makes the Hackers job even easier. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Epicedion
post Feb 19 2014, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Feb 19 2014, 01:52 PM) *
Actually right now I'm thinking about a Technomancer ability which works like counterspelling and gives them a unique function to replace their inability to use their Living Persona as a Master in a PAN. Being able to add bonus dice from a pool to aid matrix defenses would work well. While an Echo that works almost exactly like Counterspelling comes to mind first, I think I'd want this to be available to starting players, so it either needs to be a new Resonance Action, or it needs to be a Complex Form.

Let's try building it as a Complex Form.

RESONANCE SHIELD
Target: Self • Duration: P • FV: L
You build up a bulwark of protective resonance which you can use to protect icons from matrix threats. Make a simple Software + Resonance [Level] test. On a success you gain a Resonance Shield at that level, which acts as a dice pool with a number of dice equal to it's level, plus any net successes. This shield remains as long as you sustain the power or until all the dice in it are used up. When an icon you are protecting makes a matrix defense roll, you can choose to add any number of dice to the icon's roll, but those dice are used up. When in AR, you can extend your protection to any icon within 100m of you. When in VR, you can extend your protection to an icon in the same Host as you, or within 100m of your Persona.


That's not bad, but I'd make it a Sustained power and have it grant a flat +hits dice to (up to Level) targets.
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BlackJaw
post Feb 19 2014, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (Epicedion @ Feb 19 2014, 11:22 AM) *
Make it so that the decker gets a "counterhacking" pool equal to his Hacking skill. Each turn (pass?) he can use a reaction to allocate dice to defend against a potential hack.

Hacking is already a useful skill. If I wanted to go this route, I'd probably pick Electronic Warfare or Cybercombat. Electronic Warfare in particular would allow riggers some extra counter hacking options, and is otherwise a less utilized skill than Hacking or Cybercombat is right now.
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Epicedion
post Feb 19 2014, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Feb 19 2014, 01:56 PM) *
Hacking is already a useful skill. If I wanted to go this route, I'd probably pick Electronic Warfare or Cybercombat. Electronic Warfare in particular would allow riggers some extra counter hacking options, and is otherwise a less utilized skill than Hacking or Cybercombat is right now.


Electronic Warfare. I like it.

So, I'd work it like this:

Technomancers and Deckers can use their Electronic Warfare to boost a target's defenses with an "Electronic Warfare Pool" similar to a Mage's Counterspelling, replacing the slaved device rules. This pool refreshes only at the end of a Combat Turn.

(Also I'd keep the PAN rules I specified)

Technomancers additionally can get the Complex Form (Sustained rather than Permanent) that gives +hits defense to up to Level targets. In this way Technomancers get an actual edge on deckers when it comes to team defense, since they can do either/both.
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BlackJaw
post Feb 19 2014, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE (Epicedion @ Feb 19 2014, 11:55 AM) *
That's not bad, but I'd make it a Sustained power and have it grant a flat +hits dice to (up to Level) targets.

That's essentially Infusion of Firewall on steroids isn't it?

QUOTE (Epicedion @ Feb 19 2014, 12:23 PM) *
Technomancers and Deckers can use their Electronic Warfare to boost a target's defenses with an "Electronic Warfare Pool" similar to a Mage's Counterspelling, replacing the slaved device rules. This pool refreshes only at the end of a Combat Turn.


If it works for you. A couple of questions:
1) Wouldn't security spiders in a Host get the same defense pool to counter hackers?
2) Wouldn't anyone with the Electronic Warefare skill be able to do this? Counterspelling is limited to people with the Magic attribute, and my Technomancer idea is only for those with Resonance. Anyone (riggers, deckers, street samurai, mages, etc) Can take the Electronic Warefare skill. I think you implementation needs a limiting factor of some kind that keeps it just to Technomancers, Deckers, and Riggers. Limiting it to Deckers and Technomancers would be to some how tie it to Attack or Sleaze, but if you want it to be an option for Riggers defending their drones, then you need some other way to do this, even if it's just allowing RCCs to do it by fiat.
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Sendaz
post Feb 19 2014, 08:08 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 19 2014, 02:44 PM) *
I just get around that by not having matrix linked devices. *shrug*

Don't mind TJ, he is just trying to push their new SpiderWire™ alternative tech.

QUOTE
Terrified of having your precious Stun Baton hi-jacked by unscrupulous Hackers? Of Technomancers invading the privacy of your own PAN?
Become the King of your own Castle once more with SpiderWire™
SpiderWire™ provides a hardwired connection between all your various devices without bogging you down with heavy cables.
Rather through the use of an ultralight, ultrathin nanowire that is nearly invisible as it plays out from the lightweight easily attachable minispools (each good for up to 100m range), it feeds back to a Dedicated MasterMind Unit.
Rated at a whopping 0.98 Turing this is the closest thing you can get to a functional AI without the CC coming down on you with the Black Hammer of G.O.D..
Sporting a full sensory suite and impressive computational power, the various devices connected through your private 'Web' are provided with the electronic chatter necessary to gain the added benefits normally only associated with an active wireless presence without the unnecessary risk of exposing oneself to virtual predators of the Matrix.

Note: MedTech Compliant Modules available for an additional cost as an add-on. Now have a virtual surgeon watching over you and orchestrating your field surgeries knowing you are in good hands.

So go ahead, extend that Stun Baton instantly with confidence knowing you're secure in your own Personal Web and leave those Matrix Malcontents behind.

QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Feb 19 2014, 03:43 PM) *
2) Wouldn't anyone with the Electronic Warefare skill be able to do this? Counterspelling is limited to people with the Magic attribute, and my Technomancer idea is only for those with Resonance. Anyone (riggers, deckers, street samurai, mages, etc) Can take the Electronic Warefare skill. I think you implementation needs a limiting factor of some kind that keeps it just to Technomancers, Deckers, and Riggers. Limiting it to Deckers and Technomancers would be to some how tie it to Attack or Sleaze, but if you want it to be an option for Riggers defending their drones, then you need some other way to do this, even if it's just allowing RCCs to do it by fiat.


Maybe anyone with EW could do it, but Epic did point out there can be a form that would do this with a bigger bonus. Just have to tweak the numbers to taste.
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Epicedion
post Feb 19 2014, 08:19 PM
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QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Feb 19 2014, 02:43 PM) *
That's essentially Infusion of Firewall on steroids isn't it?


Appears to be. Hmm. Not a huge fan of the depleting pool, however.

QUOTE
If it works for you. A couple of questions:
1) Wouldn't security spiders in a Host get the same defense pool to counter hackers?
2) Wouldn't anyone with the Electronic Warefare skill be able to do this? Counterspelling is limited to people with the Magic attribute, and my Technomancer idea is only for those with Resonance. Anyone (riggers, deckers, street samurai, mages, etc) Can take the Electronic Warefare skill. I think you implementation needs a limiting factor of some kind that keeps it just to Technomancers, Deckers, and Riggers. Limiting it to Deckers and Technomancers would be to some how tie it to Attack or Sleaze, but if you want it to be an option for Riggers defending their drones, then you need some other way to do this, even if it's just allowing RCCs to do it by fiat.


1) Wouldn't apply to personas. I suppose the spider could protect files and attached devices in his host.

2) I'd give it the "only decks/RCCs" treatment, with the extra caveat that RCCs can only provide help for subscribed drones (rather than just anyone willy-nilly).
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Sendaz
post Feb 19 2014, 08:31 PM
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Think you should consider the depleting pool, if only to reflect you can only cover/counter so much at any given time, otherwise it is just a second firewall adding a blanket defense.

Your pool refreshes every Combat Turn in any case.
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Epicedion
post Feb 19 2014, 08:38 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Feb 19 2014, 03:31 PM) *
Think you should consider the depleting pool, if only to reflect you can only cover/counter so much at any given time, otherwise it is just a second firewall adding a blanket defense.

Your pool refreshes every Combat Turn in any case.


You could phrase it as a static penalty to any non-Resonance-based hacking versus targets within Level meters.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Feb 19 2014, 09:08 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Feb 19 2014, 01:08 PM) *
Don't mind TJ, he is just trying to push their new SpiderWire™ alternative tech.


I really need to plug that hole in R&D that you keep exploiting.
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Moirdryd
post Feb 19 2014, 11:46 PM
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Adding this to my House Rules list and inspired by some of the topic here....

Some Love for the Cyberdeck and RCC:

Icons, PANs and Overwatch.
Just like the book says you can have Device Rating x3 other devices slaved to a Master (in the form of a CommLink or Cyberdeck) this forms a PAN. However the CyberDeck being the matrix cutting computer marvel that it is can instead of acting as a Master for a device can act as Matrix Overwatch for a number of PANs equal to it’s Device Rating. Each PAN slaved though removes the possibility of 3 individual devices slaved. (Example, a Device Rating 3 Deck can slave 9 devices, 3 PANs, 3 devices and 2 PANs or 6 devices and 1 PAN). Once the defence of the Deck Overwatch has been breached (By a Mark being successfully on a PAN protected by the Deck) the PAN must rely on it’s own defences until the friendly Decker can Erase the unwanted Mark.



Rigging, Decking and Electronic Warfare.
Anyone with access to a Commlink, RCC or a similar device that allows for encoding and access to the Matrix can attempt to protect their Devices and PAN using the coding portion of the Electronic Warfare skill. For Joe Citizen or Johnny Ganger such a thing typically doesn’t even occur to do. To Rent-A-Cop security it’s usually a hassle and expense that is often unwarranted. For higher rated private security, military operations and for Shadowrunners it’s the difference between success and failure.

A character can Encrypt their Device or PAN with an Extended Electronic Warfare + Logic [Fire Wall] roll. Each Hit adds a dice to any defence test for that Device or PAN against Hacking attempts. This roll has an interval of One Hour and the Maximum Hits achievable is [Fire Wall]. Due to the nature of its functionality an RCC has a Maximum Hits of [Fire Wall + Device Rating], this can make an RCC very difficult for a Decker to hack into if the Rigger has the time and talent to set up an EW Encryption.

An EW encryption can be broken with a Complex Matrix action of Electronic Warfare + Logic [Data Processing]. Each Hit reduces the Encryption by 1 until it is broken.

The Encryption is good until broken (it’s rating remains reduced if it has been partially decrypted) or until a new device is added to the RCC PAN or if the PAN is added to a Matrix Overwatch. Under all such cases the Encryption is considered voided and must be re-coded.

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Sengir
post Feb 20 2014, 01:06 PM
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QUOTE (BlackJaw @ Feb 19 2014, 07:52 PM) *
Actually right now I'm thinking about a Technomancer ability which works like counterspelling and gives them a unique function to replace their inability to use their Living Persona as a Master in a PAN

Why not just ditch that inability? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Sendaz
post Feb 20 2014, 01:30 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 20 2014, 09:06 AM) *
Why not just ditch that inability? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

What? Go with the easy way? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

NEVER!

Now if you please direct your attention to this 16 page formula for an TM version of Counterspelling.......
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Sengir
post Feb 21 2014, 12:29 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Feb 20 2014, 02:30 PM) *
What? Go with the easy way? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

NEVER!

Now if you please direct your attention to this 16 page formula for an TM version of Counterspelling.......

You must have a really small monitor if that single paragraph spans 16 pages for you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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