Quality Conversion, This Karma thing is weird Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[ProfGast]

So I'm trying out some character creation in SR5 and one of the things that makes me miss looking at 4A is the absolute dearth of Qualities to pick from. Granted they did pick and choose a number of the better ones from Runner's Companion, but I wanted more.

Unfortunately when trying to convert from 4 to 5, I ran into some problems: the Karma cost do not reflect proportionate BP cost at all seemingly and I can't really see any rhyme or reason on why one thing would be 7 karma while another is 4.


Quick Healer (5 BP) is now 3 karma
Ambidextrous (5BP) is now 4 karma
Human Looking (5BP) is now 6 karma
Blandness (10BP) now 8 karma
Jury Rigger (10BP) is now 10 karma
Aptitude (10BP) is now 14 karma (okay this one makes a bit more sense sense skill caps were raised but still)
Exceptional Attribute (20BP) now 14 karma
Lucky (20BP) now 12 karma


I can't seem to find any sort of rhyme or reason.

What would you guys put for
Restricted Gear (5BP)?
Inspired (5BP)? Would you have it work for Performance AND Artisan? Make Performance have its own?
How about negative Qualities?
Signature (10BP)
In debt (Variable BP)

Is there any way I can consistently convert? Or should I just wait for actual supplements and make do?

[SpellBinder]

I don't think there's going to be any consistent conversion. The conversion guide actually says SR4 characters lose Blandness for a skill specialization, even though the quality was carried over and the respective karma cost cut by more than half (10BP = 20 karma). And if you had either form of Erased before, forget about it because you get a program or two at 250¥ each (useless unless you actually bought a cyberdeck). The BP/karma cost for that certainly isn't commensurate for the nuyen of what could potentially be worthless software.

[Curator]

after character gen. qualities cost 2x the listed cost in karma.

[Mäx]

There isn't any conversion rate, most likely because the prices wheren't converted but instead set at what the writer deemed to be balanced and ofcource this edition gave much more room to balance the costs against each other as the cost can be anything not just 5,10,15 etc.

[Kyrinthic]

In debt was always a kind of broken disadvantage anyhow. Look, free build points to get extra money in chargen.
I'm glad that one was removed, and sensitive system was made into something other than a freebie for magic characters.

Both of those always felt a bit abusive in 4th.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In debt was always a kind of broken disadvantage anyhow. Look, free build points to get extra money in chargen.
I'm glad that one was removed, and sensitive system was made into something other than a freebie for magic characters.

Both of those always felt a bit abusive in 4th.

Why? I am curious.
They were pretty significant at our table. Not that they were a common choice (saw In Debt more often than Sensitive System), but when they were they always got play time.

[BlackJaw]

Why? I am curious.
They were pretty significant at our table. Not that they were a common choice (saw In Debt more often than Sensitive System), but when they were they always got play time.

I don't think In Debt was removed, so much as it hasn't been published yet. It was in Runners Companion in 4th, not the core book, so we will need to wait for Run Faster to see if it's still around and if it has been changed.

Happen to agree that Sensitive System was often an abusive trait for magic or resonance based characters in it's 4th edition incarnation. At the 4th edition table I played at, taking Sensitive System on a character with no ware was frowned on. It was basically free Build Points for applying a penalty to something you weren't going to do anyway. It was kind of like taking "Incompetent" for "Pilot:Aerospace," in that you don't really expect you low-lifestyle SINless street-thug troll to ever need to fly a space shuttle. You'll note that Incompetent has been changed in 5th edition as well. It now applies to a Skill Group instead of a single skill.

I agree that I never saw a big issue with In Debt though. On the surface it seems great because it gives you cash and build points, but on the other hand you have to pay it back +50% +10% monthly interest, and will regularly tracked down by your loan shark if you aren't at least paying that 10% each month. I built one character with In Debt, and he owed a lot of money to his former go-gang, and it was an issue for him.
I never saw anyone take In Debt at the 5bp level, but I suppose that might be a bit abusive. You get 5bp and $5,000 at character creation, and owe just $7,500 with an interest of $750 per month. You could probably pay that off after your first run or two, making it a fairly easy 5bp to "buy off" once the game starts.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't think In Debt was removed, so much as it hasn't been published yet. It was in Runners Companion in 4th, not the core book, so we will need to wait for Run Faster to see if it's still around and if it has been changed.

Happen to agree that Sensitive System was often an abusive trait for magic or resonance based characters in it's 4th edition incarnation. At the 4th edition table I played at, taking Sensitive System on a character with no ware was frowned on. It was basically free Build Points for applying a penalty to something you weren't going to do anyway. It was kind of like taking "Incompetent" for "Pilot:Aerospace," in that you don't really expect you low-lifestyle SINless street-thug troll to ever need to fly a space shuttle. You'll note that Incompetent has been changed in 5th edition as well. It now applies to a Skill Group instead of a single skill.

I agree that I never saw a big issue with In Debt though. On the surface it seems great because it gives you cash and build points, but on the other hand you have to pay it back +50% +10% monthly interest, and will regularly tracked down by your loan shark if you aren't at least paying that 10% each month. I built one character with In Debt, and he owed a lot of money to his former go-gang, and it was an issue for him.
I never saw anyone take In Debt at the 5bp level, but I suppose that might be a bit abusive. You get 5bp and $5,000 at character creation, and owe just $7,500 with an interest of $750 per month. You could probably pay that off after your first run or two, making it a fairly easy 5bp to "buy off" once the game starts.

Except that the Quality does not go away when you pay the money back... You still need to buy it off with Karma, and therein lies the rub... Because if the quality is still there, you are still beholden to whomever you owed - and that has LOTS of potential for stories. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sensitive system still has ramifications even for the character who never plans to have Cyber. Even when your GM isn't a prick... Those plans don't always work out. Sometimes, in the short term, you do not have a choice.

[Kyrinthic]

It of course depends on the player and the GM. But as mentioned, for certain characters, sensitive system was basically free points, or at least required the GM to think of ways to make it an actual penalty. There will always be traits that are easier to shoulder for certain builds, but the new additions to sensitive system were very well done.

Dept was trickier, but really, if you compare the 'cost' of debt to other similar level traits as far as the bad stuff, it was no worse, if not somewhat tamer than most, and you got extra cash out of the deal. Also I have had different people debate the 'but I paid it all off, how is it still a problem' direction too, both GMs or players. It always just felt like less of a disadvantage than pretty much any other for the same points. You could easily sneak 5-10 bp in that could be paid back quickly, with a low enough debt coming in to be almost a non-issue, since for a lot of characters, karma is worth more than money anyhow.

Considering the way the priority system works, and how much cash rank E gives, and how much you get per nuyen, if debt does make a return, it should be more of a 'you borrowed money, then spent it' kind of disad, without the free money starting the game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It of course depends on the player and the GM. But as mentioned, for certain characters, sensitive system was basically free points, or at least required the GM to think of ways to make it an actual penalty. There will always be traits that are easier to shoulder for certain builds, but the new additions to sensitive system were very well done.

Dept was trickier, but really, if you compare the 'cost' of debt to other similar level traits as far as the bad stuff, it was no worse, if not somewhat tamer than most, and you got extra cash out of the deal. Also I have had different people debate the 'but I paid it all off, how is it still a problem' direction too, both GMs or players. It always just felt like less of a disadvantage than pretty much any other for the same points. You could easily sneak 5-10 bp in that could be paid back quickly, with a low enough debt coming in to be almost a non-issue, since for a lot of characters, karma is worth more than money anyhow.

Considering the way the priority system works, and how much cash rank E gives, and how much you get per nuyen, if debt does make a return, it should be more of a 'you borrowed money, then spent it' kind of disad, without the free money starting the game.

Agreed...