The little details I don't like Options

[BlackJaw]

Ok, I'm starting this thread to find all the little rules bits of 5th edition that probably could have been better/different.
This is not a thread to complain wireless bonuses, for which we have plenty of threads already covering that. Also, there are a lot of thread about the editing mistakes, which are also bad in some places, and many of which are not yet in the official errata. I'm not here to talk about those errors where the wrong word or number is written in either.

I'm interested in specific little bits of the rules can be easily tweaked. I'm looking for little rules oddities that might make their way into a list of simple house rules.

• Pistols covers the use of handguns and tazers, but not the Dartgun Pistol. In fact there is a tazer that shoots small electric darts, but somehow a pistol that shoots chemical filled darts is too different to be covered by the same skill? It seems silly to me that Dartguns are exotic weapons, possibly even two separate exotic weapons depending on interpretation. I think Dartgun Pistols should be covered by the Pistol skill, and Dartgun Rifles by the Longarms skill. It would add some more diversity to those groups and help them compete a bit with the Automatics skill.
• Rigger Control Consoles and Cyberdecks can both use Cyberprograms, but for some reason they have to have separate programs. An RCC's Wrapper program can't run on a Deck, nor the reverse. This seems unnecessarily complex for no real added game-play purpose.
• Control Rigs add to a vehicle's speed, which means having the right computer implanted in your brain somehow making the engine run twice as fast or more. It's a simple rule to make this bonus only apply for chase rolls, but not for determining actual vehicle speed.
• Cross-Grid and Public-Grid penalties would be a lot easier to handle in gameplay if they were simply source of Noise instead of penalties that apply under particular sets of circumstances. In particular, having Public grid penalties count as noise means a non-matrix-action device (like a gun) wouldn't be better protected on the public grid then on a "real" grid. In fact, it would be more susceptible to jamming.
• Satelite Uplinks, as they are written now, don't actually help you get online from remote locations. They cap distance related noise, but don't help with static zones (which the noise chart on page 231 includes being in places where you should need a satellite uplink to get online.) Even if you simply switch it to cap static zone penalties instead of noise ones, it's cap is 5, which is the penalty for being in a place requiring a satelite uplink anyway, so it's not helping. I think the device should continue to limit distance noise to 5, and it should reduce spam/static zone penalties to 0 as long as the device has a clear view of the sky. Noise from blocking it's view of the sky, like a cave or bad weather, still applies.

Edit:

• Trodenets are typically described as not being as good for VR as a datajack, but the rules still don't back that up. I like the house rule that Trodenets can only handle Cold VR, and that cyberware is needed for Hot Sim.

[Drace]

[*]Control Rigs add to a vehicle's speed, which means having the right computer implanted in your brain somehow making the engine run twice as fast or more. It's a simple rule to make this bonus only apply for chase rolls, but not for determining actual vehicle speed.

This could be explained by the Control Rig allowing the rigger in question to be able to control minute details about grip consumption, RPM, and the like to optimize the vehicles speed. Even today thy have compute programs that do this, it was even bastardized in the original fast and the furious.

Things I don't like (very small list to be honest)

-Equality of trode nets to DNI through data jack (agreed on blackjacks point)

-No more need for chip jack to slot Chips and BTLs. Goes against fluff and flavour for me

-High skills levels among npcs and opponents, rewarding extreme optimizing

-lack of clarity regarding host legality (is the host legally beholden to the grid it is on? GOD has no jurisdiction, but physical locations government may? What if the host is in the public grid? Etc)

Though most of what I don't like can easily be altered by GM abilities with little effort.

[Jaid]

This could be explained by the Control Rig allowing the rigger in question to be able to control minute details about grip consumption, RPM, and the like to optimize the vehicles speed. Even today thy have compute programs that do this, it was even bastardized in the original fast and the furious.

the other half of that equation is that a couple of points of speed (VCRs add 1 per rating) makes the difference between a minivan and a fighter jet.

[Sendaz]

[*]Control Rigs add to a vehicle's speed, which means having the right computer implanted in your brain somehow making the engine run twice as fast or more. It's a simple rule to make this bonus only apply for chase rolls, but not for determining actual vehicle speed.

Actually the added speed is not from the Control rig directly, but rather the complimentary case of red spray paint they send along to put on the vehicles. That does the trick.


But on a more serious note:

Defaulting / Substituting Skills:
I realize specialization is the hip thing, but they could bring back a better way to default skills that the current method of Attribute -1, especially for the variety of firearms. If you can handle a rifle and a handgun normally, picking up a shotgun in an emergency should get a bit more dice than Agi-1. Yes it does handle a little differently and the ranges are different, but for most cases the range isn't as big an issue given most will be up close anyway.

Personally I miss the old days of just have Firearms and then you specialize from there, if you wanted to, but that would be a bit more of an overhaul than what this thread is for.

Yes, there is a cute red box in the corner saying you may be able to substitute a skill with a dice penalty, but it does not really give any guidelines on this and only one example.

[Drace]

True enough, but to be honest, if a player ever tried that and I was GMing I would say no (and no I am not saying it is solely the GMs responsibility to fix it and no onus is on Catalyst, but until errata common sense should be used). If the player insisted since it is RAW, I would smile. If they didn't take my predatory grin as warning to stop, I would allow it, then take the fact that a fighter jet is built to e able to go those speeds, while a minivan has trouble holding up without wobble at 100kph, and have the vehicle lose all control and then come apart at the seams since the frame itself is not designed for those speeds. Then consider the speed as the velocity of he person now flying carless and determine impact damage modified by anout of shrapnel his car is peppering him with (pretty sure if you hit Mach-anything a van would essentially turn into flèchette ammunition, several tons of it).

[tjn]

True enough, but to be honest, if a player ever tried that and I was GMing I would say no (and no I am not saying it is solely the GMs responsibility to fix it and no onus is on Catalyst, but until errata common sense should be used). If the player insisted since it is RAW, I would smile. If they didn't take my predatory grin as warning to stop, I would allow it, then take the fact that a fighter jet is built to e able to go those speeds, while a minivan has trouble holding up without wobble at 100kph, and have the vehicle lose all control and then come apart at the seams since the frame itself is not designed for those speeds. Then consider the speed as the velocity of he person now flying carless and determine impact damage modified by anout of shrapnel his car is peppering him with (pretty sure if you hit Mach-anything a van would essentially turn into flèchette ammunition, several tons of it).

And I would stand beside the player in moving to kick any GM from the group that tried to pull that passive-aggressive crap. You want to discuss the difference in opinion so that the table can come to a compromise on how to fix RAW when it is absurd, I'm with you. But the player made assumptions that RAW is the basic foundation for shared gameplay and any deviation from it should be discussed before creating characters for this shared world, or failing that, the player should be given the chance to amend his character to be the same as if he knew this information before creating it.

Playing lame gotcha games is the last resort of a GM who can't come to a compromise with his players, who are ostensibly his friends.

But getting back on topic: what I dislike is the absurd number of rolls to accomplish some actions. Threading is a prime example: you roll first just to see the limit of the next roll, then you get to roll that, which is resisted, and then there's fading to contend with.
And then there's Hacking, which had a prime opportunity to gut and start over with a better core mechanic, but it remains; it is slightly better than SR4, but still a roll-a-thon.
I dislike that there is isn't much of a reason to go full mage over a MysAd.
I dislike the vast incomparable differences in drop offs between the different priorities as a choice goes lower in priority.
I dislike that Technomancers best role is as the guy that lets the decker do cool stuff, while being almost inept outside of the matrix.
I dislike cyberlimbs having a separate attribute and would rather it automatically be adjusted to the PC's normal attribute, and that the cyberlimb could accept modifications for capacity to be used against the normal +4 augmented limit.
I dislike how the standard suggestions for nuyen awards would barely cover the cost of doing business in the shadows and how usually something stupid (like stealing cars in SR4) is usually a better use of a shadowrunner's time if he wants to make money, even forgetting the risk of life and limb inherent in running.
I dislike how resource (attributes, skills, AND nuyen) intense the Rigger role is, and how they tend to have to choose between having all the necessary skills at their role and having the necessary toys to fulfill their role.
I also dislike how expensive decks are now, how this then both removes everyone but the decker from meaningful interaction with the matrix and how the expensive deck now becomes loot priority number one on any run with matrix security.

Some are easier fixes than others, but I still want to grab the designers and shout "WHY! EXPLAIN THIS TO ME!"

[Neraph]

Some are easier fixes than others, but I still want to grab the designers and shout "WHY! EXPLAIN THIS TO ME!"

Bull has already spoken on why. He didn't like wireless in SR4 and felt a need to move back in time towards SR2-3. Most of the backsliding towards decking was a direct result of his vendetta against 4th Ed.

[psychophipps]

Tazers and handguns are completely different tools. They have about as much as much in common as Chihuahuas and horses. If anything, match up handgun and dart gun under the same skill, and make tazers an exotic weapon.

[Draco18s]

Bull has already spoken on why. He didn't like wireless in SR4 and felt a need to move back in time towards SR2-3. Most of the backsliding towards decking was a direct result of his vendetta against 4th Ed.

Suffice to say, the result wasn't any better.
(The beatings will continue until the dead horse improves)

And then there's Hacking, which had a prime opportunity to gut and start over with a better core mechanic, but it remains; it is slightly better than SR4, but still a roll-a-thon.

I'm toying around on a side project right now that if I ever get anything playable might make people a little happier about playing hackers.

Might want to dust off Thief first though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[tjn]

Bull has already spoken on why. He didn't like wireless in SR4 and felt a need to move back in time towards SR2-3. Most of the backsliding towards decking was a direct result of his vendetta against 4th Ed.

Well I meant that as an overall anguished why and not directed specifically at my last point, the price of decks. However as to that specifically, I get the point was to reinforce deckers as a separate role, but I do think there are other ways than making decks into portable treasure hoards. Seriously, with a decent contact, even the lowest deck is an instant 10k payday, no questions asked. If you manage to grab a fairlight, that's more money in one go than most of my characters have ever been able to save up across entire campaigns, in a single item that probably was tangential to the run itself, and the run probably paid out 1/10th of what they would get for the fairlight.

[tjn]

I'm toying around on a side project right now that if I ever get anything playable might make people a little happier about playing hackers.

Before 5th, someone here floated an idea of bring back ACIFS and the basic hacking roll was Log+Skill, limit was program, difficulty was formed by the ACIFS system in some manner, and one roll accomplished the task. I really liked that train of thought as it both simplified hacking actions and the devices themselves. Not sure how to throw decks with attack and sleaze attributes back into that paradigm though.

Might want to dust off Thief first though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Guessing you'd recommend it? =p Loved the original Thief with the multitude of different ways to accomplish any one goal, did the new Thief keep that?

[Sendaz]

Guessing you'd recommend it? =p Loved the original Thief with the multitude of different ways to accomplish any one goal, did the new Thief keep that?

depends, you count jumping? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Samoth]

Dart Guns should fold into their respective skills (Pistols or Longarms). I'm sure it's just a game balance decision since 15s from a narcoject dart is incredibly powerful so you may as well pay more to use it efficiently, and you can't get a specialization on the skill.

The Remington Roomsweeper should be allowed to use the Longarms skill to give Longarms users a little more versatility. You can get a sawn-off T-250 but it still conceals like a bullpup assault rifle (+4). There is some basis for this in that Machine Pistols can be used either by the Pistols or Automatics skill, but bizarrely only in SA mode if using Pistol skill despite several pistols having BF mode.

[Draco18s]

Guessing you'd recommend it? =p Loved the original Thief with the multitude of different ways to accomplish any one goal, did the new Thief keep that?

TBH, I never played it.
I saw TotalBiscuit's review of the new one and his take on it was that the missions are pretty much "one solution" depending on what skills you take (that is, if you take skill X, then missions will feel very single-solutiony using skill X, whereas if you take skill Y instead, it'll be the same way but for skill Y).

So not that there aren't multiple solutions, but rather that in order to have multiple solutions you have to generalize rather than specialize.

Also, combat is deadly and you only have a blackjack, no sword for you: You're a thief, not an assassin.

The point I was making is that I want to have that kind of feel for the person playing it, but make the success/failure line a little blurry. i.e. getting spotted shouldn't mean game over (this is Shadowrun, getting detected by an IC doesn't mean you get booted, you can still enter cybercombat or run away and hide in a different node, etc. etc.)

At the moment I don't even have level generation complete, I've only been working on it for a few days.