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> Run and Gun "Preview" #3, More Modifiers and other ways to kill people...ish
tasti man LH
post Mar 3 2014, 10:22 PM
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Preview #3 out here.

Basically (from just a quick skim through), some other combat modifiers, additional kinds of Called Shots and...rules for hitting specific body parts?

Yay, now my players can get the VATS they've solely desired!!!
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Sendaz
post Mar 3 2014, 10:37 PM
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The optional rule of 'Putting Bullets around Armor' is certainly interesting and would avoid having you being stunned senseless by ammo, but does mean bleeding more when you are hit.

Will have to play with this a bit and see...
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X-Kalibur
post Mar 3 2014, 10:52 PM
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Dangit, I really wanted to see what a called shot to the ear would do. I could imagine someone glitching their defense roll on that getting hit in the achillies tendon.
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Sendaz
post Mar 3 2014, 11:20 PM
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Hmm.. looking at this I may be missing something here because this looks funny if using RG5

So we have Benny the Snitch over here with an Armor Jacket (Armor 12)

Hi guys.. ooo.. spiffy jacket

Now Tommy the Troll decides to pop a cap in Benny with his throwback Rugar Super Warhawk style.

Wait, WHAT?

*BANG*

OMG you SHOT me!!!

Tommy has 4 Agil and a 6 in Pistols for an initial Attack DP of 10, under RG5 it is now modified by the armor minus AP if using this optional rule so 12 armor reduced by the -2 AP to 10, for a penalty of -10 to the Attack DP, meaning a final dicepool of 0 unless Tommy is using edge or can swing some other modifiers?

Even with a heavier weapon, which will be between AP of -4 to -6 that still means an attack modifier of -8 to -6 dice just against a basic armor jacket.

Or am I missing a step in this?
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apple
post Mar 3 2014, 11:31 PM
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No.

Except maybe APDS. So you need Armor Piercing Ammo do not shoot the armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

To be honest, called shots to specifics body parts donīt work very well (rule and imagination). It works only if you have a clear zone / hit system in the first place.

SYL
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Sendaz
post Mar 3 2014, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE (apple @ Mar 3 2014, 07:31 PM) *
No.

Except maybe APDS. So you need Armor Piercing Ammo to not shoot the armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Fixed that.. but that does make some sense since the APDS is making those nice holes in the armor to get through.

So with APDS, the AP jumps up to -6, modifying the armor value for an attack roll penalty of -6, knocking the 10 dice down to 4 dice.

At least still a chance to hit though Benny still gets a chance to defend.

Wonder if GR5 was originally designed with SR4 armor values in mind before the boost to Armor.

SR4 version Jacket would be equivalent of 8, modified by the -2 AP would be a -6 to attack roll. In the above example, would knock the 10 dice down to 4 dice.

Toss in APDS and the penalty to the attack roll drops to -2, -2AP for gun and -4 for APDS so -6 modifying the armor down to 2, for a final Attack DP of 8.

PRO:
Alot of ammo flattening against armor for more survivability.
No cascading stun as any damage that does get through will stay in its original form.

Con:
It can be ALOT of ammo flattening against even moderate armour by shooters with only nominal skills/gear.
Mil Spec armor is gonna be a monster.
Only Body now for the damage resist of whatever does get through, so those wounds will hurt like hell. So you are either up or you're down.
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Moirdryd
post Mar 3 2014, 11:43 PM
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It's not a great rule that one, no. But it is optional and I more like the sound of there being ruled in Called Shot system for getting around the armour. That makes things like the FFBA potentially more tasty than the Armoured Vest depending on how they do it (plus whatever the concealment rules and charts work out as and so forth.) I get a feeling a bunch of the Optional Rules will become Common Rules at a lot of tables.
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RHat
post Mar 4 2014, 12:21 AM
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Small point regarding RG5... Adept centering?
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psychophipps
post Mar 4 2014, 02:26 AM
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I always treated hit locations as being based upon your successes...flavor text, as it were.
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Sendaz
post Mar 4 2014, 02:38 AM
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QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 3 2014, 08:21 PM) *
Small point regarding RG5... Adept centering?

That's a good point, so the gunslinger adept could be very popular in this scenario, at least once they got a few grades under the belt....
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RHat
post Mar 4 2014, 02:38 AM
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QUOTE (psychophipps @ Mar 3 2014, 07:26 PM) *
I always treated hit locations as being based upon your successes...flavor text, as it were.


There's the odd situation where they can be pretty handy, though - such as slamming heel or the "blade" (outside edge, you might note that it's harder and thinner than the inside edge) of the foot onto the instep of an attacker, which is commonly taught as a rudimentary self-defense technique.
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Sendaz
post Mar 4 2014, 02:46 AM
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If they are allowing for ankle and ear, that probably means they are going to have a modifier for head shots and how is armor going to run for that?

The helmet is listed as a + value, but that was for stacking purposes. They are going to need a value like the great coats, one value is worn alone since for a head shot that's the only armor reasonably there and the other value as part of a stack.

I remember targeting systems in battletech let you target specific parts of the mech, except the head/cockpit as that would have made short work of the mech.
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psychophipps
post Mar 4 2014, 02:56 AM
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QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 3 2014, 08:38 PM) *
There's the odd situation where they can be pretty handy, though - such as slamming heel or the "blade" (outside edge, you might note that it's harder and thinner than the inside edge) of the foot onto the instep of an attacker, which is commonly taught as a rudimentary self-defense technique.


How so? The better they roll, the better <insert random trick> works. It's not rocket surgery.
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RHat
post Mar 4 2014, 02:59 AM
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QUOTE (psychophipps @ Mar 3 2014, 07:56 PM) *
How so? The better they roll, the better <insert random trick> works. It's not rocket surgery.


Having specific effects in the rules is useful, if only because it makes it easier to adjudicate. I'm sure there's some players who would have more difficulty thinking of something to do that's outside of the rules, so it's useful for them.

As far as headshots go - or in general called shots for greater lethality - I don't think that fits the mold of what they appear to be going for; it looks more like hit locations for specific effects.
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Sendaz
post Mar 4 2014, 03:09 AM
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QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 3 2014, 10:59 PM) *
As far as headshots go - or in general called shots for greater lethality - I don't think that fits the mold of what they appear to be going for; it looks more like hit locations for specific effects.
Granted, plus there will probably be things like Blood in the Eye where you graze/cut them on their brow so blood drips down into the eyes, blurring their vision.

They mention chopping at the neck so maybe the old karate chop KO is back, well stunned anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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psychophipps
post Mar 4 2014, 03:09 AM
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QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 3 2014, 08:59 PM) *
Having specific effects in the rules is useful, if only because it makes it easier to adjudicate. I'm sure there's some players who would have more difficulty thinking of something to do that's outside of the rules, so it's useful for them.

As far as headshots go - or in general called shots for greater lethality - I don't think that fits the mold of what they appear to be going for; it looks more like hit locations for specific effects.


Well, you *do* tend to shoot people in the head because you want them dead...
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Draco18s
post Mar 4 2014, 03:49 AM
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QUOTE (psychophipps @ Mar 3 2014, 09:56 PM) *
How so? The better they roll, the better <insert random trick> works. It's not rocket surgery.


Ok, say you're standing toe-to-toe with a guy. Karate style. This is a fist fight, so you've only got your right flank towards him (or your left, if you prefer) because that presents a smaller target.

He's doing the same to you.

Take your forward foot and kick his forward foot.

How hard is that?

Answer:
Really fucking easy. His foot like is like six inches from yours.
It's also a great distraction. It says "hey, hey, look at my foot, hey, foot, hey" and then you punch him.
(My favorite tactic, back when I took karate, was actually a double or triple-feint with my foot, then I'd feint with a punch or chop and follow it up with a real kick. Because it's such a good tool for distraction people stop paying attention to it)
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Drace
post Mar 4 2014, 03:57 AM
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Really reminds me of the hit location system for wfrp and the sci if versions by FFG, perhaps that was he basis of their inspiration for this?

And called headshots I've always ruled were using the armour in the head (the +3). But that was a house rule more tan anything, and required an aim action with no bonus prior to the headshot.
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tasti man LH
post Mar 4 2014, 04:07 AM
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From my limited understanding of combat with firearms, pulling off headshots are actually really difficult, especially if it's from a precise shot. If you're spraying and praying someone in the general direction of their head, yeah chances are good that you'll put several holes in their noggins. But a precise shot to the head is significantly harder to pull off. Mostly because the head is just a much smaller target then everywhere else on the body. Military snipers are always taught to aim for center of mass of the body (aka the chest) when making their shots and will rarely ever do headshots.

For me, I slap as low as -4 to as high as -6 penalty on players that attempt Called Shots to the head, which would usually bring their DP down a third or almost half of their original DP. Although the plus side being if they hit, I rule that the guy dies instantly.
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binarywraith
post Mar 4 2014, 04:41 AM
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I feel like we've entered the realm of recursion, where we're about to see a whole book of additional alternate combat rules that need errata published before the basic rules get errata that will, in turn, require more errata to the new rules.
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Drace
post Mar 4 2014, 05:26 AM
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For all we know, Catalyst could be doing all these levies to test the waters an seeing how Ds and their forums react. And then deal accordingly. So let's hope tats no th case of the errata being made before it's even been released
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Medicineman
post Mar 4 2014, 06:46 AM
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I wonder how Armor is integrated into Hit Location Shots
Example Ear.
When my Char succeeds with an aimed shot to the Ear.
what is the other guys Soak Pool ?
mere Body? Or Body and Armor(argue Point: He's not wearing his armored vest around his ear. I hit his Ear not his Chest)

with a Hit location Dance
Medicineman
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Sendaz
post Mar 4 2014, 07:15 AM
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QUOTE (Drace @ Mar 4 2014, 01:26 AM) *
For all we know, Catalyst could be doing all these levies to test the waters an seeing how Ds and their forums react. And then deal accordingly. So let's hope tats no th case of the errata being made before it's even been released

That's a lovely thought, but the SOP to date has been it will release with what they have, with errata later as they probably have moved the bulk of the people onto the next project and any errata would want to be examined and playtested before commiting to final errata.But that is sort of the advantage of buying the downloads as the errata can then be downloaded as well.
Or let the Germans do it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

QUOTE (Medicineman @ Mar 4 2014, 02:46 AM) *
I wonder how Armor is integrated into Hit Location Shots
Example Ear.
When my Char succeeds with an aimed shot to the Ear.
what is the other guys Soak Pool ?
mere Body? Or Body and Armor(argue Point: He's not wearing his armored vest around his ear. I hit his Ear not his Chest)

with a Hit location Dance
Medicineman

In the ear example they mention its not an actual hit but so close the pressure change of its passing impacts on your ear drum so I think they are playing this as bypassing armor unless you have something specific providing ear protection.

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X-Kalibur
post Mar 4 2014, 07:19 AM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Mar 3 2014, 11:15 PM) *
That's a lovely thought, but the SOP to date has been it will release with what they have, with errata later as they probably have moved the bulk of the people onto the next project and any errata would want to be examined and playtested before commiting to final errata.


In the ear example they mention its not an actual hit but so close the pressure change of its passing impacts on your ear drum so I think they are playing this as bypassing armor unless you have something specific providing ear protection.


Call my crazy... but wouldn't that do nothing to your ear except maybe scare the frag out of you? I know they tested really hard to get a .50 from a rifle to break glass just by passing close to it to no avail.
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tasti man LH
post Mar 4 2014, 07:24 AM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Mar 3 2014, 11:15 PM) *
In the ear example they mention its not an actual hit but so close the pressure change of its passing impacts on your ear drum so I think they are playing this as bypassing armor unless you have something specific providing ear protection.

Well we can't know for sure right now, since the rest of that entry has been cut-off.
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