A matter of being harsh but fair or a D**k ref :vegm:, :noflame: Options

[DMiller]

We've had characters lose gear during a run. Somethims through accident (glitch), sometimes through stupidity (taking a nodachi in the sewers). But anything really important to the character that is on the chopping block is usually discussed off-line and usually a replacement is made available within a reasonable amount of time.

At least that's how we've done it in the past.

[Wounded Ronin]

that might be the case with some things, but in general, a person with a decent computer skill is not going to be a threat with a cyberdeck, no matter how good it is. the deck doesn't determine your dice pools (well, partially for defence, but a high rating commlink has equal defensive stats and costs a lot less). the deck determines your limits. the worst decker in the world with the best cyberdeck in the world is still more useless than a moderately competent decker with the worst deck in the world. it is only when it is a matter of having several moderately competent people that can use the gear while there is only one piece of gear that destroying the equipment is likely to be the better choice.

likewise, the vehicle is likely a lot less important than the driver. the piece of gear you need to disable is the rating 3 VCR in the guy's head, not the car he's driving.

especially in shadowrun terms. in a war, it's very likely the enemy has multiple people trained to use that rocket launcher. in a team of shadowrunners, odds are pretty good that anyone else driving the rigger's vehicle will be less impressive than the rigger driving a tricycle with a control rig in it. also, depending on how strictly you follow the RAW, they may not travel as fast as the rigger on a tricycle either.

as to characters getting shot being more tolerable than gear... honestly, usually not so much. the character without the gear in some cases becomes completely useless. if you are a decker and lose your deck in SR5, the odds of you *ever* getting a replacement are incredibly slim. especially with the official guidelines on how much money your team makes. now, if it's reasonable to expect that your decker has a couple hundred grand in the bank, or if your decker has persuaded the group to not sell off any cyberdecks they may have captured, it's possible for the character to function. but, the simple fact is this: because of how SR5 is set up, it is easier to replace a character than it is to replace a character's equipment.

As far as the decker goes, things must be more complicated in 5e. I haven't really GMed or played since 3rd ed and even then people hardly ever wanted to play deckers. So my memory is a bit rusty but if I recall right a lot of the power was in the cyberdeck and programs so it was much more viable for, say, some other team member to sacrifice some build points towards Computer so that he could then run over and use the deck if the team decker was down.

Also, as I recall, some IC could fry your deck, so sometimes you'd need to repair it in the normal course of play due to IC as opposed to it only happening due to snipers targeting gear. If I were the GM I'd treat a sniper round through the deck as a similar repair to the optical chips and motherboard inside getting fried since in either case you'd think it would come down to replacing a bunch damaged hardware.


You bring up a good point with the rigger. If he can be identified it would make sense to snipe him out. I guess that's the same as real life...the sniper is supposed to ID and prioritize in the following order, according to Plaster: 1.) enemy sniper or designated marksman, 2.) specialized equipment like anti air missiles or sensors on a tank, 3.) officers, and 4.) everyone else.

Thinking this through further, if I'm the corporate security sniper, let's say that I see a runner hunched over a deck near a terminal. I don't necessarily know if he's a poor decker or a great decker and I don't necessarily know if anyone else on the SR team is also a great decker. Maybe they even have 2 deckers on the team. I also have no way of gauging whether or not he's compromised building security, defenses, or how close he is to doing so.

If I shoot the decker that's obviously good, but I don't know for sure that someone couldn't run over and finish what he started. But if I destroy the deck, I feel fairly secure that that won't happen. If I don't really have time to think it over too hard or debate it and lives are on the line, I could see shooting the deck as feeling like the "safer" option if I really don't want the defense turrets to attack allies, or something like that. Considering the horrific possibility of defenses turning on me and my team, it would seem like logically the deck is the greater threat than the decker, since without a working deck, you can't even attempt to deck at all.

EDIT: So, to finalize the thought, if I were a GM today, I would simply state before the game that in my campaign snipers and others are trained to target gear in some cases and I'd point to the background or precedent of some of the info in "The Ultimate Sniper" to demonstrate that this has a basis in real world military practices as opposed to something that I'm simply making up. Next, as far as matrix stuff goes, I would either reduce the prices on decks, adjust matrix stuff so that cheaper decks are OK (for plausibility in a world where decks aren't permanent and character defining investments but rather combat equipment that get used up), or else I would (plausibly I feel) allow the player characters to seize cyberdecks from facilities that contain them as part of the security setup so that rather than having to buy a replacement deck a team could have several decks of various caliber in their possession as spoils of war at all times.

As opposed to adhering to some strange idea that expensive gear taken into combat can never get damaged.

That's like saying the Stalight Scopes used in the Vietnam War that at the time cost tens of thousands of dollars were never damaged in combat or accidentally broken because they were an important part of someone's abilities at the time and the person could get into a lot of trouble over a missing or damaged unit.

[Jaid]

5th edition matrix is definitely different. it's been a while since i looked at it, but iirc 3rd edition cyberdecks and programs adjusted your target numbers, and your matrix attributes, so were crazy important. in 4th edition, your dicepool was determined by your programs plus your skill, so they were pretty important then, too.

in 5th edition, your dice pool for hacking is skill + attribute (usually logic), and the deck sets your limit. however, even on the worst deck you can swap your deck's attributes pretty much on the fly, which means that your limit for any given action can be made pretty high right off the bat. not amazing, but you can have a limit of 4 even on the worst deck out there (which is still 50k nuyen, give or take, with no software).

your deck's attributes also contribute to your defensive dice pool, so not completely irrelevant (especially if you can't get your defensive stats to be the two highest after taking an action), but basically... if you are not good at hacking, you're gonna fail miserably at it, even with an amazing deck. an amazing deck will generally let you use really awesome rolls, and doesn't drastically improve your chance to make said really awesome rolls.

as to someone else being a decker... unlikely. it's a pretty big investment of resources. you need 5 skills to be good at all hacking tasks (plus one if you want hardware, plus another 2 for technomancers). having a second decker who doesn't own a deck after investing so many skill points into it is unlikely. plus you also need logic, willpower, and sometimes intuition to make up your dice pools. the only people likely to have good attributes in those areas but not be deckers are magicians and technomancers. magicians already need a crudload of skills, and have plenty of karma sinks that improve them in their main area of focus (and seldom want the distraction of getting good at something they're very very very rarely likely to need to do), and technomancers don't need the deck anyways (and also actually make a lot more sense as a "second decker" on a team, since about the only thing they're legitimately great at right now is making an actual decker better at decking).

[Rubic]

as to someone else being a decker... unlikely.

Technomancers, from my look in, can get as much benefit out of using a Deck as the decker that bought it, possibly more as the flexibility and the availability of programs changes the game for them. Then, if the Deck is shot or bricked, the technomancer can STILL keep hacking, but without the buff from their teammate's paperweight.

[Xystophoroi]

The other issue is that you don't want the mediocre decker fiddling around in the matrix until after the alarms are already raised.

Decking is a race against Overwatch count and the decker who rolls worse is going to lose that race. Once OC hits the target number up go the alarms.

You really want the best decker you can get doing the hacking during the stealth/infiltration/etc. parts of the run. The mediocre one can join in once alarms are up.

[Jaid]

Technomancers, from my look in, can get as much benefit out of using a Deck as the decker that bought it, possibly more as the flexibility and the availability of programs changes the game for them. Then, if the Deck is shot or bricked, the technomancer can STILL keep hacking, but without the buff from their teammate's paperweight.

sure, but you'd still have the same basic problem with or without the deck. if you shoot the deck, a technomancer can hack. if you don't shoot the deck, the technomancer can hack. it's even possible the technomancer has taken the time to preemptively set up a few marks on important things on their own persona, which would provide some motivation to not switch to the deck (also the fact that certain actions can magically only be performed by the owner of something).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah. How is the Decker going to contribute on the 5+ runs he needs to get paid for in order to buy a new Deck.
At best he's splashed some points into a couple of combat and stealth skills but most of his skills, attributes and 'ware are going to be focused on Decking. At best he's a mediocre combat support guy with good medical skills (due to high logic), , certainly not on par with the rest of the group.

Which is why the SR4A Method of Hacking is superior. No Multi-Hundreds of Thousands of nuyen sunk into the required hardware. Lose a Custom Hacking Link, and you just go get another one (they are still pretty expensive, but nothing compared to the prices of Decks in SR5 - I think the one my Cyberlogician ran with ran just over 60,000 Nuyen). The Economy adjustments do not make up for it in SR5.

[Teulisch]

I had an issue with this, in one game i ran. The male rigger was an alcoholic, and the plan was to use a 'rented' van to sneak in, and have the decker set the package they wanted as outgoing on that company van. the rest of the team was nearby, but the rigger was physically alone in the van.

So, first he botched a disguise check to put on makeup to defeat digital cameras looking at him. this makes him look weird, but thats not too bad overall as long as the decker has things under control. While waiting at the gate, the player says he offers a drink from his hip flask to the guard on duty. *RED FLAG* goes up, and internal security starts to go 'wait, what?' but the decker gets the van loaded and on the move in time. the decker, however, fails to fully check security or remove camera records.

so they get tailed, and lose the 'rented' van in a firefight at a local mall where the decker stops smartphone pictures from hitting the matrix. they got the r7 goods, and are out of there... so i ask the rigger 'where did you park your van with all the drones?' he tells me his apartment (which is linked to his fake SIN). i ask if hes sure, he says yes. so we soon find lone star at his apartment. he started packing up his bag to leave the game right then and there.

now, i thought i was being nice- i politely refrained from starting a TPK fight with security at the warehouse when the player voluntatily screwed himself over hard. and yet he saw only the character creation cost of those precious toys that lone star impounded. he also strongly resisted the idea of changing his face/SIN for a good while. he was sadly in the habit of volunteering information that would screw his character over in other games as well. it was how he 'roleplayed'.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Heh... That is entertaining.

My Cyberlogician got captured by Mitsuhama after a plan went horribly south (admittedly the group was a major thorn in their side, and at least 2 of the characters had rolled over and were informing for them by that point). Accused of Corporate Espionage and with the vast majority of this High-End Beta Grade Cyber removed (along with some 40 or so drones, 3 major vehicles and assorted other gear seized), he was sent to Prison. It sucked, but was oh so fun breaking out and re-equipping and recovering what he had lost. Sadly, I retired the character after the Emergence fiasco settled down. Something about my GF wanting to hunt down the bastard that killed her. Ahh well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[binarywraith]

Which is why the SR4A Method od Hacking is superior. No Multi-Hundreds of Thousands of nuyen sunk into the required hardware. Lose a Custom Hacking Link, and you just go get another one (they are still pretty expensive, but nothing compared to the prices of Decks in SR5 - I think the one my Cyberlogician ran with ran just over 60,000 Nuyen). The Economy adjustments do not make up for it in SR5.

Or the Decker just makes a deal with somebody. One of his contacts, the group's Fixer, or even someone shadier, to get the money. Boom, suddenly you have a plot hook to spin those five or so runs around that lets you as the GM lead the players a little into taking runs a bit outside their comfort zone.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Or the Decker just makes a deal with somebody. One of his contacts, the group's Fixer, or even someone shadier, to get the money. Boom, suddenly you have a plot hook to spin those five or so runs around that lets you as the GM lead the players a little into taking runs a bit outside their comfort zone.

That is true too... I'm always good with something like that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jaid]

provided you don't use the screwed up payout system that the core book recommends.

"oh hey look guys, we're running against Ghostwalker! sweet, we get a 3,000 nuyen bonus! totally worth it!"

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

provided you don't use the screwed up payout system that the core book recommends.

"oh hey look guys, we're running against Ghostwalker! sweet, we get a 3,000 nuyen bonus! totally worth it!"

Yeah, whoever came up with that system, really missed the boat, I think. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[binarywraith]

provided you don't use the screwed up payout system that the core book recommends.

"oh hey look guys, we're running against Ghostwalker! sweet, we get a 3,000 nuyen bonus! totally worth it!"

God, no. I still base my payouts in SR2/3 era thought processes, combined with $1 = 1 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in the players' heads. It all bleeds out in ammo costs and lifestyle anyway.

[Daier Mune]

seeing as how gear-based SR is, I'd consider major equipment loss would be taken as seriously as considerations for outright killing player characters. something to be done in moderation, with a lot of thought put into it by the GM, and should have a direct link to the ongoing plot.

[Smash]

Yeah, whoever came up with that system, really missed the boat, I think. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

On this I think we all agree (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

I think messing with a PCs gear is inherently dangerous to player happiness, but I think it can be pulled off on a case by case basis.

The key, really, is to make sure that any losses the PCs suffer have a chance to be made up.

Gunbunny Gloria has her favorite modded assault rifle blasted to pieces by a mage with an acid spell? Give her the opportunity to geek the bastard, and maybe on his corpse she finds paydata which gives the team access to a secret weapons cache, or the time and place of a major illegal gun shipment, letting the team make some profit snagging it and letting Gloria find a fancy replacement weapon in the crate marked "Ares Prototype System XF-150".

~Umi

[tasti man LH]

Heheh, well conversely...

I did get evil thoughts, as a GM, when I saw that Springfield Model 1855 Reproduction in GH3.

"What happens if you kidnap some PC runners, lock them in a room, take away all their gear, and the only readily available weapons are these crates of ancient musket rifles complete with their ammo? Wireless bonuses? Hah! You don't have to worry about these weapons bricking!!!"

"Oh, and I hope you took a Firearms Design or Firearms History knowledge skill so you know how to handle these, because otherwise it's about as useful as an empty stapler!!!"

[FuelDrop]

Heheh, well conversely...

I did get evil thoughts, as a GM, when I saw that Springfield Model 1855 Reproduction in GH3.

"What happens if you kidnap some PC runners, lock them in a room, take away all their gear, and the only readily available weapons are these crates of ancient musket rifles complete with their ammo? Wireless bonuses? Hah! You don't have to worry about these weapons bricking!!!"

"Oh, and I hope you took a Firearms Design or Firearms History knowledge skill so you know how to handle these, because otherwise it's about as useful as an empty stapler!!!"

"All good, I went and minmaxed the Clubs skill as high as it would go. Hell, I reckon these things are more dangerous as Clubs than as guns!"

Also, I believe they could default longarms on that knowledge check, though granted at a penalty.

[psychophipps]

"All good, I went and minmaxed the Clubs skill as high as it would go. Hell, I reckon these things are more dangerous as Clubs than as guns!"

Also, I believe they could default longarms on that knowledge check, though granted at a penalty.

Had a Korean War vet as my History and Law class teacher. He told us a story once of how his unit was the target of a human wave attack and the big ol' corn-fed Hoss of a machinegunner ran out of machinegun ammo so he picked up the empty M1 Garand rifles of two dead US soldiers by the barrels and started hacking away with them at the charging Chinese. Heads popped right the fuck off necks, smashed skulls squirting out eyeballs, the whole nine yards...pretty intense shit, to say the least.

Ask any Korean War vet the sound they hate more than anything else and I can guarantee "Those fucking bugles" tops their lists...

[Glyph]

I think Wounded Ronin's approach would be the optimal one from a realism standpoint. The problem is that Shadowrun's gear is so messed up, cost-wise (and mechanics-wise; too many archetypes need certain expensive gear merely to function). It should be - your gear gets trashed, you spend part of what you got paid to replace it. What is is - you spent hundreds of thousands on a piece of gear that is integral to your very functionality, and you get paid a few thousand for the run where you are risking it. If you lose it, good luck getting another one. The costs need to come down, or runner pay needs to go up, or other avenues (looting, etc.) need to be opened up.

I think a PC losing a choice piece of gear can make for a dramatic moment, although it is better to get player buy-in beforehand rather than springing it on them. Unless you really know your players. It is a crappy way of enforcing "game balance", though, and anyone deriding such a tactic as GM dickery would be right on the money. If Mr. Christmas Tree is breaking your campaign, talk to him about it. If you would like him to pare down his gear, sit down with him and work out a dramatic way for it to happen in-game. But reimburse him for the resources that he invested in it in the first place; it's only fair.

[FuelDrop]

you know, rules for cobbling together a DIY deck on the fly will really impact on this. Sure the expensive deck is far better but losing it doesn't stop the decker doing their job. Also, having rules that let you upgrade an existing deck's hardware rather than having to buy an expensive new monstrosity every time you want to upgrade would be nice.

[tasti man LH]

you know, rules for cobbling together a DIY deck on the fly will really impact on this. Sure the expensive deck is far better but losing it doesn't stop the decker doing their job. Also, having rules that let you upgrade an existing deck's hardware rather than having to buy an expensive new monstrosity every time you want to upgrade would be nice.

Well, considering that the intro fiction of the core book teases us with the possibility of being able to construct your deck with from a bunch of scrap, AND that the worst possible RCC is made from the stuff, I'm under the impression that the thought crossed their mind.

Well, we'll see what Data Trails gets us...

[Shortstraw]

My players tend to steal everything in sight so they really don't mind when their stuff gets destroyed. The turnover leads to weekly changes in ability which they like.

[Pendaric]

I think a PC losing a choice piece of gear can make for a dramatic moment, although it is better to get player buy-in beforehand rather than springing it on them. Unless you really know your players. It is a crappy way of enforcing "game balance", though, and anyone deriding such a tactic as GM dickery would be right on the money. If Mr. Christmas Tree is breaking your campaign, talk to him about it. If you would like him to pare down his gear, sit down with him and work out a dramatic way for it to happen in-game. But reimburse him for the resources that he invested in it in the first place; it's only fair.

It's not really a problem in my game, as am a SR3 ref. I was thinking more of it resetting the clock for further expansion IC. So precisely needing more karma/cred/favours/debt to build up the arsenal again and the surprise and hard slog of getting their making the surprise hit home. I think surprise and rebuild is inherent to gear destruction drama.
If they know its coming OC the rping dosent have the same intensity. Also returning a cyberdeck very quickly might deminish the fear factor.

I agree it is a lot safer and 'fairer' to discuss ahead of time though. But some players would rather not know to get the biggest hit emotionally IC. Trust is essential and its I think as shown by this thread, a hard call.