Let's talk about machine guns, And why Catalyst need to hire someone competent to talk to about guns. Options

[binarywraith]

Never had a little sister but I sure have a little brother and with me was the concept of shock and awe. If he did something to me I would come to him so fast and so hard that his only choices would be to yeld or keep getting pounded.
I would not say that I'm proud of that, but I was always of the philosophy that the best way to stop a fight is to make sure the other side won't be capable of fighting again (killing or maiming it), since it was my little brother and kinslaying is frowned upon by the Old Gods and the New, I had to come up with the next best thing that is to scare the shit out of him.

I found I only had to deal with my younger brother wanting to fight once. He slugged me in the mouth, and I spit blood, looked him in the eye, and said 'You better run.'

He didn't start shit after that, and I didn't have to actually flatten him and get Mom on my case. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Wounded Ronin]

They were a thing in previous editions?

Sorry, I've thought about them for so many years I always think of it as putting the origin back in. It was just a slip on my part.

Man, it just occurs for me that I've thought for YEARS about how to make SR3 more realistic but it seems increasingly unlikely that I will ever actually run or play another SR3 game.

Someday I'll sit down and write the definitive super realistic SR3 edit after years of thinking about this again and again and again. And no one will play it but it will sit on my hard drive as some statuesque profound perfection that finally allows shadowrunners to break contact using suppression fire and realistic movement rates.

[Sengir]

Or would one argue that the victim is at fault for being shot/killed since they chose to resist?

The original question was not "who is legally/morally at fault?", but "did the guy who pulled the gun expect or even want somebody to die?". And my answer was "you sure he expected anything beyond 'bring gun, be boss, no problem'?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Although.... if you wanted that kind of realism, the GM could keep the health tracks for the players behind the screen with him and you only got vague notions of your current damage.

Sure, but my impression of the people constant clamoring for "realism" is that they constantly want more data, not less. Even though that would be anything but realistic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Irion]

@Sengir

but "did the guy who pulled the gun expect or even want somebody to die?". And my answer was "you sure he expected anything beyond 'bring gun, be boss, no problem'?

Thats a mood point, because you can say that about anything. If they would have just gave me the money, I would not have stolen it.

[Sendaz]

Mood Point? Is that the difference between a grumpy gunman and a happy highwayman? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Irion]

@Sendaz
At this note:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1ZA8XLSJB8

[Warlordtheft]

Never had any issues with my USMC Issued SAW. Of Course, that was 25 years ago, so they were pretty new, and in really good shape) at the time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And then I traded up for a Radio, and the resulting devastation was glorious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

From what I've been reading the M4's are pretty much in the same condition as the SAWs. They've been beat-up and used severely over the last 10 years. I guess my hope that someday there'd be a glut of surplus 5.56N ammo on the cheap is gone......

BTW-As somebody whose closest combat experience is paintball and fencing my take is the first thing you do in a firefight is find cover (assuming there is some). Then start shooting back.

Back OT: Machineguns are best employed as static strong points, the game reflects that by allowing you to mount the MG (for no recoil) on a drone or emplacement with no recoil (SR4 base rules). A troll could probably wield one as well. It is the 1,000 rounds of belted ammo that are hard to carry.

[Faelan]

From what I've been reading the M4's are pretty much in the same condition as the SAWs. They've been beat-up and used severely over the last 10 years. I guess my hope that someday there'd be a glut of surplus 5.56N ammo on the cheap is gone......

BTW-As somebody whose closest combat experience is paintball and fencing my take is the first thing you do in a firefight is find cover (assuming there is some). Then start shooting back.

Back OT: Machineguns are best employed as static strong points, the game reflects that by allowing you to mount the MG (for no recoil) on a drone or emplacement with no recoil (SR4 base rules). A troll could probably wield one as well. It is the 1,000 rounds of belted ammo that are hard to carry.

The M4 has other issues, primarily being a carbine it fails to deliver long range return fire capability in the 5.56mm (Many instances in Afghanistan where troops could not return fire because the rounds would not reach). A 6.8 mm might resolve this allowing for that sweet spot where you can have a weapon multi task very well, or an upgrade to 7.62 NATO which would resolve other issues with the 5.56mm, by reducing payload. Not an ideal situation.

When fired upon fire as you reach for cover or you may never get to that cover because dropping in the open is asking for a round to impact.

Yes. They are sweet in a fixed position.

[Warlordtheft]

The M4 has other issues, primarily being a carbine it fails to deliver long range return fire capability in the 5.56mm (Many instances in Afghanistan where troops could not return fire because the rounds would not reach). A 6.8 mm might resolve this allowing for that sweet spot where you can have a weapon multi task very well, or an upgrade to 7.62 NATO which would resolve other issues with the 5.56mm, by reducing payload. Not an ideal situation.

I have shot a Mauser in 6.5mm (iirc has similar ballistics to the 6.8mm), definitely more accurate than the 8mm mauser. Going back to 7.62 might be plausible, except for the weight and number of bullets carried. Of course barring the balloon going up in Ukraine (god I hope not) or South China sea (One of the top 10 ways to ruin the global economy), or North Korea (my guess the biggest problem there would be the Chinese reaction) or other major conflict, the 7.62 is the better choice for a standard rifle round. The only other advantage for the 5.56 is it is slightly less likley to going through walls and hitting unintended targets when fighting in urban environments.

[nezumi]

Someday I'll sit down and write the definitive super realistic SR3 edit after years of thinking about this again and again and again. And no one will play it but it will sit on my hard drive as some statuesque profound perfection that finally allows shadowrunners to break contact using suppression fire and realistic movement rates.

I WOULD PLAY IT.

I have my rocker character already drafted up and waiting.

[kzt]

From what I've been reading the M4's are pretty much in the same condition as the SAWs. They've been beat-up and used severely over the last 10 years. I guess my hope that someday there'd be a glut of surplus 5.56N ammo on the cheap is gone......

The government keeps buying new ones from FN, so I'd assume they are replacing the ones that are really beaten to hell.

I read recently that current civilian sales of ammo exceed the peak production rates of WW2, so not really likely.

http://bearingarms.com/think-the-ammo-mark...er-think-again/

Note that the current demand is 17 billion rounds of ammunition, just for the commercial market, excluding military and law enforcement markets.

Let me say that again: that excludes the military and law enforcement markets. The government isn’t to blame.

That’s about 5 billion rounds a year more than we were producing during the height of the Second World War.

[psychophipps]

Back OT: Machineguns are best employed as static strong points, the game reflects that by allowing you to mount the MG (for no recoil) on a drone or emplacement with no recoil (SR4 base rules). A troll could probably wield one as well. It is the 1,000 rounds of belted ammo that are hard to carry.

Umm...smart grenades? Fire and maneuver? The AT4 working as one hell of an anti-sniper/anti-machinegun weapon? You put a machinegun in a static position, you better pray to all that is Holy that collateral damage is a big worry for those shooting at you because if it's not and they have anything but low-end weaponry it's gonna be your ass in about 15 seconds as they find and fix your position.

90% of our issue in the fighting in our last several wars wasn't finding and killing the enemy. It was killing the enemy while not killing all the civilians that are around them. Believe me, if US Forces had free-range to unleash the Murder Machine, you'd be seeing a whole lot more of really bad stuff in cable news footage than you see now.

[Faelan]

Umm...smart grenades? Fire and maneuver? The AT4 working as one hell of an anti-sniper/anti-machinegun weapon? You put a machinegun in a static position, you better pray to all that is Holy that collateral damage is a big worry for those shooting at you because if it's not and they have anything but low-end weaponry it's gonna be your ass in about 15 seconds as they find and fix your position.

I was talking about a prepared position with interlocking fire, and definitely not an urban environment. Also fixed as in mounted on a vehicle. However in a SR environment I would not shy away from it even in an urban environment simply due to the defensive measures likely available, and the very real likelihood of it being remotely controlled. As the Megacorp, equipment is cheap, I don't really care about collateral damage in most situations, and the return on my investment is dead runners and the maintenance of my competitive advantage.

90% of our issue in the fighting in our last several wars wasn't finding and killing the enemy. It was killing the enemy while not killing all the civilians that are around them. Believe me, if US Forces had free-range to unleash the Murder Machine, you'd be seeing a whole lot more of really bad stuff in cable news footage than you see now.

90% of our issue was fighting a war with no real strategic objectives much like Vietnam (outside of secure oil, secure lithium, get one man). Our forces were designed for quick reaction, counter terrorism, small brush war scenarios, get in and get out. Instead we fought two wars of occupation. Undermanned, and unfunded with a military that had changed a whole lot between 1992 and 2001. We were not equipped for nation building like we were after WWII and the historical conditions on the ground never supported it. So yeah if we had gone in and done our dirty deeds quickly and efficiently we would have accomplished the things that were really necessary; capture/kill Osama bin Laden, disrupt Al Qaeda, remove Saddam Hussein and get out almost immediately after. You can get away with civilian casualties if they happen during the initial phase of operations, after that you are just begging for trouble and like you said the murder machine is canned.

[X-Kalibur]

I WOULD PLAY IT.

I have my rocker character already drafted up and waiting.

Do a glam rock runner team. It would be glorious.

[Umidori]

Doing runs to hijack shipments of novacoke and sequin encrusted fabrics...
Blowing up corporate research facilities with hairspray bombs...
The team's fixer is secretly David Bowie who ended up being an immortal elf...

~Umi

[X-Kalibur]

Doing runs to hijack shipments of novacoke and sequin encrusted fabrics...
Blowing up corporate research facilities with hairspray bombs...
The team's fixer is secretly David Bowie who ended up being an immortal elf...

~Umi

Secretly?

[Umidori]

Yeah, secretly. Kinda like JetBlack, I guess.

I mean, being David Bowie has its perks, but you can't exactly work in the shadows if you're David Bowie, neh?

So maybe he faked his death to hide his nature as an immortal elf or whatever. That's like the standard operating procedure for immortal elves, ain't it? So he's a member of their little club, he knows the secret handshake and the sacred oath, he goes out for drinks and body-glitter with Harlequin, and he secretly manipulates the world through the Shadows.

He once tried to run them himself under the alter ego of Ziggy Stardust, but it didn't end well so he shifted to working as a fixer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

~Umi

[X-Kalibur]

Yeah, secretly. Kinda like JetBlack, I guess.

I mean, being David Bowie has its perks, but you can't exactly work in the shadows if you're David Bowie, neh?

So maybe he faked his death to hide his nature as an immortal elf or whatever. That's like the standard operating procedure for immortal elves, ain't it? So he's a member of their little club, he knows the secret handshake and the sacred oath, he goes out for drinks and body-glitter with Harlequin, and he secretly manipulates the world through the Shadows.

He once tried to run them himself under the alter ego of Ziggy Stardust, but it didn't end well so he shifted to working as a fixer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

~Umi

Part of me can see David Bowie and Ziggy Stardust being free spirits.

[Sendaz]

Part of me can see David Bowie and Ziggy Stardust being free spirits.

so he would be an earth elemental due to his ties to 'rock'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Umidori]

Part of me can see David Bowie and Ziggy Stardust being free spirits.

No, come to think of it, Bowie clearly needs to be a Mentor Spirit. An awful, awful Mentor Spirit.

~Umi

[X-Kalibur]

I somehow knew that would get linked. Good show!

[Ed_209a]

Someday I'll sit down and write the definitive super realistic SR3 edit after years of thinking about this again and again and again. And no one will play it but it will sit on my hard drive as some statuesque profound perfection that finally allows shadowrunners to break contact using suppression fire and realistic movement rates.

I tried that once. I would "fix" one thing only to break another. I eventually realized my edit became more and more like another game system, so I stopped and started thinking about porting Shadowrun's fluff to that system. (whose name is an acronym and comes from Austin TX)

[kzt]

I tried that once. I would "fix" one thing only to break another. I eventually realized my edit became more and more like another game system, so I stopped and started thinking about porting Shadowrun's fluff to that system. (whose name is an acronym and comes from Austin TX)

There was a HERO port done once, but it had problems. Like not acknowledging SR magic has invisible ranged NND killing attacks, and hence the whole balance thing that you would try to achieve using HERO doesn't work.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I tried that once. I would "fix" one thing only to break another. I eventually realized my edit became more and more like another game system, so I stopped and started thinking about porting Shadowrun's fluff to that system. (whose name is an acronym and comes from Austin TX)

Well, I do like Systems to Role-Play who are Generic and Universal.
It's the system with which God designed the Universe... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Umidori]

Any god that designed GURPS would necessarily be malevolent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umi