Let's talk about machine guns, And why Catalyst need to hire someone competent to talk to about guns. Options

[Faelan]

So. Yeah. Axes will spoil your whole day, better even than pistols.

Oh, and yes, some soldiers do carry tomahawks. They might not be issue weapons, but they are very useful. Check into that. Armes blanches didn't stop working when the Garand was invented.

Always had a hatchet in my kit. Chopping down trees was a right pain in the ass with an e-tool.

[psychophipps]

Real dope, straight from the streets follows:

• Yes, rifle bullets which actually hit the head, body, or upper limbs including arteries, are killers. Very capable killers. This is why hunters use them.
• Handgun bullets just don't compare. The physics of expanding gases and short barrels mean that handgun wounds, including head wounds in the numbers, have lethality rates of under 20%. Seriously, the survival rate is somewhere over 80% with today's medical care on tap.
• A knife wound is close to a pistol wound in lethality, but since stabbings usually entail multiple knife wounds, and the torso hit rate tends to be better, the knife is on balance more lethal than the pistol.
• Two handed, swung, weighted weapons are killers on a level very close to rifles. The accumulated energy is plenty to crush joints, split skulls, sever limbs and penetrate all the way through a body.

Actually knives aren't even close to firearms. Firearms wounds survival rates are around 80%+ and knife wound survival rates are around 96%+. It's the psychology of cutting someone open and getting their blood squirting all over you while they screech and moan, the fact that knives make horrible fight stoppers, and the typical "bad breath range" that their maximum effectiveness is attained at.

[psychophipps]

I recommend you do something other than make shit up, and maybe go play with the equipment before you decide to act the pro when there are plenty of us here who have done it for a living, BOOT.

Now do you have anything constructive and real to add to this discussion or are you going to continue talking out your ass?

I take great affront to your use of the term "BOOT" in that instance, sir! Comparing the aforementioned personage to a "boot" does great disservice to "boots" everywhere! I mean, at least a "boot" is typically willing to learn!

[psychophipps]

As to axes: things like that already exist. In my MOS school we had a blackbelt SSgt talking about how he had one and wanted to go on another deployment just to get a confirmed kill with an axe in a combat zone.

Typical BudK garbage. Those in the know go with quality items from places like RMJ Tactical or Winkler II...

[Faelan]

I take great affront to your use of the term "BOOT" in that instance, sir! Comparing the aforementioned personage to a "boot" does great disservice to "boots" everywhere!

You are correct, however I did not want to get completely offensive and go Full Metal Jacket on here, at least a boot has earned the right to be called a boot. Off to the sand pit of infinite mountain climbers for me.

[psychophipps]

I personally think that if this M27 thing pans out with the Devil Dogs, we're looking at the end of the purpose built LMG, at least in military forces to be taken seriously. Why have all the extra weight, the lower reliability, and incompatibility with other weapons in the squad that a LMG creates?

[Faelan]

I personally think that if this M27 thing pans out with the Devil Dogs, we're looking at the end of the purpose built LMG, at least in military forces to be taken seriously. Why have all the extra weight, the lower reliability, and incompatibility with other weapons in the squad that a LMG creates?

I would have to agree that for most missions, and most situations it would be the superior solution. If they approve the 100 round magazines at some future date it takes away the reload argument completely. I carried the SAW for a year and a half, it was a pain in the ass in MOUT situations especially when you take into account full gear, gas mask, helmet, and body armor. Plus with an open bolt weapon nothing is as shitty as hearing that wonderful kthunk sound as it slams home on a dud round.

[KarmaInferno]

For those not aware, there are several current or former military and law enforcement folks on the Dumpshock boards.

Be careful who you try to call out as ignorant. You may make yourself the bigger fool.




-k

[psychophipps]

And now for the rules:

Double recoil = stupid. Ignore it.

Extra range = Good. Add a bit of extra range (like 25% or so) for machineguns vs assault/battle rifles and you should be good to go.

Trolls packing the mega-heaters like HMGs and AGLs? Sounds fine to me. It's a bit of a stretch, but it's all in fun, right? The issue then becomes, of course, finding the SuperGat 2000s in the first place and keeping them in the high-cost ammunition to keep them running.

Also keep in mind that there is a definite difference in police responses, and response times, for more reasonable weaponry like what you typically see and seeing full-on SmashTV "TOTAL...CARNAGE!" I can say with great certainty that chopping down half a neighborhood with a 2060s version of the Ma-Deuce (let alone an autoloading grenade launcher) is gonna bring down some serious-ass heat.

[psychophipps]

I would have to agree that for most missions, and most situations it would be the superior solution. If they approve the 100 round magazines at some future date it takes away the reload argument completely. I carried the SAW for a year and a half, it was a pain in the ass in MOUT situations especially when you take into account full gear, gas mask, helmet, and body armor. Plus with an open bolt weapon nothing is as shitty as hearing that wonderful kthunk sound as it slams home on a dud round.

Or when you bump the belt box and you now have a kink in your belt or a lovely strand of ammunition dragging in the dirt behind you...

[kzt]

I personally think that if this M27 thing pans out with the Devil Dogs, we're looking at the end of the purpose built LMG, at least in military forces to be taken seriously. Why have all the extra weight, the lower reliability, and incompatibility with other weapons in the squad that a LMG creates?

There were more then a few people who suspected the entire plan was really a back door way for the Marines to replace the M16. I have no idea what is really going on or how successful this has been in combat.

One thing is that light machine guns are not always the same as a squad automatic weapon, though in many armies they are. For example, the Russians consider a variant of the PK machine gun as an LMG and it fires 7.62, not 5.45.

I was an artillery guy, though I ran around with infantry companies as an FSO I'm not a MG expert by any means, so I'm not sure. The main advantage of belt-fed guns is their ability to deliver sustained fire, but not all armies have chosen to use belt fed weapons as squad automatic weapons, like the Russians with the RPK. So if the Marines experiment works out them maybe squad automatic weapons will be less and less belt fed.

The Germans seem to be going to 5.56 for their general purpose machine gun (the MG4) which seems kind of an odd thing to do.

[Bigity]

My idea of a machine gun is an A-10 or AC-130 on close air support, but I guess being Air Force makes you biased.

And they are getting ready/talking about retiring the Warthog. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Faelan]

Or when you bump the belt box and you now have a kink in your belt or a lovely strand of ammunition dragging in the dirt behind you...

Or the box that absolutely refuses to stay attached to the damn weapon, so you have to tie it to the SAW, and load belts into your now semi permanent magazine, because that RAMBO shit don't work IRL.

[Faelan]

My idea of a machine gun is an A-10 or AC-130 on close air support, but I guess being Air Force makes you biased.

And they are getting ready/talking about retiring the Warthog. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

It will indeed be a sad day when it is retired, I share your pain. It was like the old Timex commercials, takes a lickin but keeps on tickin.

[psychophipps]

True enough. Apache support is fine, A10 support is final.

[Shortstraw]

Just think of all the youtube videos that won't get made if it's retired.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just to address a couple of things. If you are firing cyclic you have lost your mind, are scared shitless, and will soon be dead because your barrel will melt, and you will run out of ammo stupid quick. You never fire on cyclic except if you are screwing around on a nice safe range, and want to think about how cool it is. If you know a damn thing about how to properly deploy a MG you would know that you never, ever, fire cyclic. Yes those war movies get it completely wrong.

The SAW is and always has been a piece of shit, primarily becaus eof the caliber of round it fires. The only part on the damn thing that wears out easily, very regularly, and rarely gets replaced because it never seems to be in the budget is the extractor. Slight wear+sand=failed extraction=bolt action weapon that weighs more than it should.

Sorry about that, SAW=pet peeve.

Never had any issues with my USMC Issued SAW. Of Course, that was 25 years ago, so they were pretty new, and in really good shape) at the time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And then I traded up for a Radio, and the resulting devastation was glorious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Faelan]

Never had any issues with my USMC Issued SAW. Of Course, that was 25 years ago, so they were pretty new, and in really good shape) at the time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I vaguely remember us having a similar discussion a long time ago in an edition far far away, or not that far away or long ago, with similar commentary on the SAW. My love/hate affair with the SAW was 22 years ago, amazing what three years of abuse will do to a weapon. It operated fine for about 5000 rounds, once that was done it was back to the extractor blues.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I vaguely remember us having a similar discussion a long time ago in an edition far far away, or not that far away or long ago, with similar commentary on the SAW. My love/hate affair with the SAW was 22 years ago, amazing what three years of abuse will do to a weapon. It operated fine for about 5000 rounds, once that was done it was back to the extractor blues.

Yeah, I can see that. I far preferred the M60, personally, but it was a pain to hump around, It was heavy as hell, and I never had what I would consider to be enough ammo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Faelan]

Yeah, I can see that. I far preferred the M60, personally, but it was a pain to hump around, It was heavy as hell, and I never had what I would consider to be enough ammo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No such thing as enough ammo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[FuelDrop]

They don't make them like they used to...

Seriously, sustained for more than 48 minutes 12 seconds (over 21,000 rounds) without failing.

[Koekepan]

Actually knives aren't even close to firearms. Firearms wounds survival rates are around 80%+ and knife wound survival rates are around 96%+. It's the psychology of cutting someone open and getting their blood squirting all over you while they screech and moan, the fact that knives make horrible fight stoppers, and the typical "bad breath range" that their maximum effectiveness is attained at.

I think you only read half of what I typed. Please note certain important contextual items:

• Knives tend not to penetrate very deeply, but can penetrate enough to reach vital organs, depending on the size (and fat layer) of the victim and the length of the blade.

• A knife wound is close to a pistol wound in lethality, but since stabbings usually entail multiple knife wounds, and the torso hit rate tends to be better, the knife is on balance more lethal than the pistol.

Knives are fairly close to pistols in aggregate survival rates, once you include multiple wounds in a particular event, and allow for the range in size of knife wounds hitting the ER - because your shadowrunner will be using a purpose designed stiletto, not a small steak knife, right? Or a military fighting knife of some description at any rate.

Also, it's not all firearms wounds that are 80+% survivable. .308 softpoint wounds tend to go to the morgue, not the ER. A .44 Magnum is a powerful round, but has nothing on most hunting rifles at comparable ranges.

• If you shoot someone with a pistol, it's because you don't like him and want him to eat hospital food for a while.
• If you stab someone once, it's because you're in a duel to first blood, or you want to distract him, or you're a knife adept.
• If you stab someone multiple times, it's because you're actively looking for vital organs.
• If you chop someone with an axe, it's because he inconveniences you and you wish him to be removed from your world.
• If you repeatedly chop someone with an axe (or machete for that matter), it's because he has not only inconvenienced you but substantially angered you as well.
• If you shoot someone with a rifle it was either a hunting accident, or because you actively intend for him to be dead in the very near future.

[Sendaz]

You forgot to add: If you shoot someone with a shotgun, you might be a former VP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

You forgot to add: If you shoot someone with a shotgun, you might be a former VP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

He was lucky it was bird shot on a small gauge.

[Neraph]

...a blackbelt SSgt...

For clarification to those who know: two-tab blackbelt in MCMAP and a total of 21 years of other martial arts. He has me beat by one year (and a MCMAP black belt - I just picked that one up).