Let's talk about machine guns, And why Catalyst need to hire someone competent to talk to about guns. Options

[Faelan]

For clarification to those who know: two-tab blackbelt in MCMAP and a total of 21 years of other martial arts. He has me beat by one year (and a MCMAP black belt - I just picked that one up).

Just out of curiosity do they go over all the weak points in MCMAP during training or not. I was a LINE Instructor in the 90's, and have 32 years in a mixed bag of martial arts, so it is at least somewhat knowledgeable curiosity. A few years ago I did a film study of different demos and training videos I managed to track down (always looking to add good techniques to my repertoire), and I noticed a large number of techniques I found very dubious. Also I have yet to see any training in full gear, so make that two questions. If you think we should take this to PM or do another thread let me know, I don't want to hijack the thread.

[psychophipps]

I think you only read half of what I typed. Please note certain important contextual items:

Knives are fairly close to pistols in aggregate survival rates, once you include multiple wounds in a particular event, and allow for the range in size of knife wounds hitting the ER - because your shadowrunner will be using a purpose designed stiletto, not a small steak knife, right? Or a military fighting knife of some description at any rate.

Also, it's not all firearms wounds that are 80+% survivable. .308 softpoint wounds tend to go to the morgue, not the ER. A .44 Magnum is a powerful round, but has nothing on most hunting rifles at comparable ranges.

• If you shoot someone with a pistol, it's because you don't like him and want him to eat hospital food for a while.
• If you stab someone once, it's because you're in a duel to first blood, or you want to distract him, or you're a knife adept.
• If you stab someone multiple times, it's because you're actively looking for vital organs.
• If you chop someone with an axe, it's because he inconveniences you and you wish him to be removed from your world.
• If you repeatedly chop someone with an axe (or machete for that matter), it's because he has not only inconvenienced you but substantially angered you as well.
• If you shoot someone with a rifle it was either a hunting accident, or because you actively intend for him to be dead in the very near future.

Interesting way to put it, but the harsh reality is that when comparing one bullet wound vs one stab wound with all other "woulda, coulda, shoulda...didn't" factors out of the equation, firearms of any ilk are far more lethal across the board than knives. A bullet is the liver tends to be more lethal, all other factors aside, than a stab. Same goes for a bullet in the heart vs a stab. The fact that bullet wounds cost, on average, about three times as much to treat as a stab wound also points to the higher complications in treatment you see with bullet wounds. Higher rates of complications = higher chances of the person wounded by a bullet eventually dying or not healing to be combat-effective.

The main factor in multiple stabbings isn't lethality of the tool, it's the psychology of the assailant. To paraphrase one of the premier knife combat trainers in the US, SouthNarc, "I wouldn't suggest to anyone to select a knife as their primary defensive weapon because I can't, in good conscience, suggest someone primarily focus on a tool that relies on an assailant's willingness to quit." The fact that the vast majority of knife wound "stops" is based upon psychology rather than physiology (and yes, the same can be said of handguns as well but to a lower percentage) further points out that knives, to be frank, really suck at killing people. Add the fact that 12-inch dirks are no longer the norm and are largely replaced with 4-inch or less folding blade knives and you get yet another drop in their lethal potential except in extreme circumstances. By the way, a pissed-off ork slamming your character into a wall and sewing-machining a 10-inch Ka-Bar into your character's guts counts as "extreme circumstances". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So knives aren't common killing tools because of the inherent lethality of knives as a tool for killing people, it's because humanity just so happens to be really good at killing each other...

[Sendaz]

Can't we have BOTH? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[kzt]

He was lucky it was bird shot on a small gauge.

And got rapid medical attention. It was not a minor wound, ended up with cardiac involvement IIRC.

[Irion]

Funny. Again a case of nerdrage without first taking a look at the case in general...
To make "guns" realistic you first need to be able to simulate the differences.
To align a pistol is much easier/faster than to align an MG or even an assault rifle. (One of the reasons for SMGs)
The same thing with fireing while realigning etc. works much better with an SMG than with an MG.
Shooting while moving, same thing again.
This all does not exist in SR. (Not to talk about running around with it and then aiming with it (which was brought up in this threat)

So before you get in the face of the damage value (which has due to the lack of everything else address those things, too) you should think about that.
And to think you get balance into an game by making several values super realistic and ignoring other things completly is an interesting point of view, but definitly wrong.

So if you would start doing it realistically you will end up with Shadowrunners never using anything heavier than an assault rifle, not because everything else would be stupid to use and has no application in general, but simply because of the fact, that it is from a game perspective always better to have something you can use in 99% of cases with at least 70% effectivity than to have something which allows you 85% in 50% of the cases but can easy drop below 50% for 30% of the cases.

@psychophipps
The problem with the statistical argument is, that you normally do not count the bullet that missed or the one which was never shot.
Then there is the whole issue with knives as an improvised weapons with no intention to kill. (Which is quite pointless to argue with shooting a gun at somebody)

[psychophipps]

@psychophipps
The problem with the statistical argument is, that you normally do not count the bullet that missed or the one which was never shot.
Then there is the whole issue with knives as an improvised weapons with no intention to kill. (Which is quite pointless to argue with shooting a gun at somebody)

Yeah, it's kind of funny how the statistics become a bit less relevant when you're busy trying not to get dead. Also keep in mind how many firearms homicide cases (justifiable and otherwise) have statements from the perpetrator along the lines of, "Yeah, but I didn't mean to kill them..."

[Neraph]

Just out of curiosity do they go over all the weak points in MCMAP during training or not. I was a LINE Instructor in the 90's, and have 32 years in a mixed bag of martial arts, so it is at least somewhat knowledgeable curiosity. A few years ago I did a film study of different demos and training videos I managed to track down (always looking to add good techniques to my repertoire), and I noticed a large number of techniques I found very dubious. Also I have yet to see any training in full gear, so make that two questions. If you think we should take this to PM or do another thread let me know, I don't want to hijack the thread.

A big part of MCMAP is ground fighting, so we learn the basic moves and then wrestle the crap out of each other to refine it. Additionally, often you'll practice MCMAP in at least boots & utes, but sometimes in cammies - cover and sometimes with a SAPI plate carrier or flak on. Not really full gear but a fairly functional training simulation.

If you want to bring it to PMs about these dubious moves (dubious as in probably wouldn't work or dubious as in potentially too damaging?) feel free.

[Sendaz]

Also keep in mind how many firearms homicide cases (justifiable and otherwise) have statements from the perpetrator along the lines of, "Yeah, but I didn't mean to kill them..."

Yes and No.
How much of that is down to not wanting to admit to 1st degree murder (premeditated) as versus 2nd degree (no foreplanning or intent).
A gun has the advantage you can act quickly and with minimal effort. Trying to claim the same with a knife is harder as you had to close with the person.

When the mother decapitated her own child, she was later to have said she didn't mean to kill the child.

When someone pulls a gun on someone else, what did they expect as an outcome? It's not a toy, even if some folk do seem to treat it as one.

[X-Kalibur]

No lawyer worth his salt would ever tell you to admit to intent to kill, even in self defense.

[Wounded Ronin]

Funny. Again a case of nerdrage without first taking a look at the case in general...
To make "guns" realistic you first need to be able to simulate the differences.
To align a pistol is much easier/faster than to align an MG or even an assault rifle. (One of the reasons for SMGs)
The same thing with fireing while realigning etc. works much better with an SMG than with an MG.
Shooting while moving, same thing again.
This all does not exist in SR. (Not to talk about running around with it and then aiming with it (which was brought up in this threat)

So before you get in the face of the damage value (which has due to the lack of everything else address those things, too) you should think about that.
And to think you get balance into an game by making several values super realistic and ignoring other things completly is an interesting point of view, but definitly wrong.

So if you would start doing it realistically you will end up with Shadowrunners never using anything heavier than an assault rifle, not because everything else would be stupid to use and has no application in general, but simply because of the fact, that it is from a game perspective always better to have something you can use in 99% of cases with at least 70% effectivity than to have something which allows you 85% in 50% of the cases but can easy drop below 50% for 30% of the cases.

@psychophipps
The problem with the statistical argument is, that you normally do not count the bullet that missed or the one which was never shot.
Then there is the whole issue with knives as an improvised weapons with no intention to kill. (Which is quite pointless to argue with shooting a gun at somebody)

I would argue if SR became totally realistic with suppression fire then SRs would carry 1 LMG per team. I am recalling my history about SEAL teams in the Mekong Delta with their famous Stoner LMGs. Part of the reason MGs are a bit silly is because there has never been a really satisfactory suppression fire mechanic.

[binarywraith]

No lawyer worth his salt would ever tell you to admit to intent to kill, even in self defense.

Nope. Intent to stop, always. If lethal force is justified, then the fact that the necessary force to create a stop was deadly is not a problem.

[psychophipps]

I would argue if SR became totally realistic with suppression fire then SRs would carry 1 LMG per team. I am recalling my history about SEAL teams in the Mekong Delta with their famous Stoner LMGs. Part of the reason MGs are a bit silly is because there has never been a really satisfactory suppression fire mechanic.

100% agreement here.

To be honest, it's also strongly dependent on what you use as your inspiration for your game. Some folks look at movies like 'Commando' and the 'Rambo' movies as to what they want their combat to be like. If you want to make Sam Peckinpah blush with your mil-spec firefights and make the Omaha Beach scene in 'Saving Private Ryan' pale in comparison, that's all in the good as long as your players feel the same way. I have personally gone in a different direction with using Michael Mann movies like, 'Heat', 'Miami Vice', and 'Collateral' along with what I personally call "The SR movie without magic", 'Ronin' as being hugely influential on how I set up my game world, how the various players will act, and to reflect the weaponry that will likely be used.

I personally think that you can do a whole mess of very tense carnage in a game scene with a pump shotgun and a smattering of pistol-caliber weapons and the willingness to use them. Tossing in mil-spec slaughterhouse weaponry doesn't necessarily add anything if you're doing your job right as a GM, in my own experience.

[kzt]

I would argue if SR became totally realistic with suppression fire then SRs would carry 1 LMG per team. I am recalling my history about SEAL teams in the Mekong Delta with their famous Stoner LMGs. Part of the reason MGs are a bit silly is because there has never been a really satisfactory suppression fire mechanic.

I had a seal who did that (though I think he carried a 60) as an instructor at Gunsite. He mentioned that they would practice by tossing a beer can out in a field and then bounce it around the field firing the 60 from the hip in short bursts. He said it just takes practice. Somehow I suspect it's a LOT of practice.

[Smash]

Funny. Again a case of nerdrage without first taking a look at the case in general...
To make "guns" realistic you first need to be able to simulate the differences.
To align a pistol is much easier/faster than to align an MG or even an assault rifle. (One of the reasons for SMGs)
The same thing with fireing while realigning etc. works much better with an SMG than with an MG.
Shooting while moving, same thing again.
This all does not exist in SR. (Not to talk about running around with it and then aiming with it (which was brought up in this threat)

So before you get in the face of the damage value (which has due to the lack of everything else address those things, too) you should think about that.
And to think you get balance into an game by making several values super realistic and ignoring other things completly is an interesting point of view, but definitly wrong.

So if you would start doing it realistically you will end up with Shadowrunners never using anything heavier than an assault rifle, not because everything else would be stupid to use and has no application in general, but simply because of the fact, that it is from a game perspective always better to have something you can use in 99% of cases with at least 70% effectivity than to have something which allows you 85% in 50% of the cases but can easy drop below 50% for 30% of the cases.

Couldn't agree more. I've often wondered why you would use an SMG in shadowrun besides that you could possible conceal it under a lined coat.

Personally I think there should be penalties with using big weapons in small spaces (like assault rifles in corridors for example), maybe bring back minimum ranges for sniper rifles (more for balance reasons than realism reasons although possibly for realism reasons as well. I just don't want to send all the realism nuts into a spin on that point) Maybe give all large weapons penalties to shoot out of moving vehicles (again maybe something a pistol or SMG has over assault rifles and long-arms).

I would always want to approach this from a mild realism base but then end on a point that is more about game balance.

[Shortstraw]

You could add overheating fairly easily. Just base it on shots fired like recoil but have it continue across turns with cooling systems reducing it by an amount each turn. Overheated weapons would add a stacking gremlins quality till you eventually glitch either jamming or barrel melting or whatever. You would have to tinker a bit to get it balanced but it wouldn't be that hard.

[kzt]

Those kind of fiddly bits don't add much but complexity. At cyclic you need to fire for a minute straight before you should change the barrel, so how would you plan to track this in 3 second turns?

[FuelDrop]

And this is why I think there should be a book called 'Gun Harder' which is composed entirely of optional rules such as jamming, overheating, durability, dirt, cumbersome weapons in CC, ect. The basic rules don't need to be at that level of detail but the option should be there.

[kzt]

The base rules are so screwed up that you can't do that. Adding better quality chocolate to your mud pie doesn't make it not a mud pie.

[Neraph]

Personally I think there should be penalties with using big weapons in small spaces (like assault rifles in corridors for example), maybe bring back minimum ranges for sniper rifles (more for balance reasons than realism reasons although possibly for realism reasons as well. I just don't want to send all the realism nuts into a spin on that point) Maybe give all large weapons penalties to shoot out of moving vehicles (again maybe something a pistol or SMG has over assault rifles and long-arms).

US Marine here. Assault rifles work fine in corridors. Sewer tunnels, maybe not so well, but office buildings, laboratories, and hospitals are just fine. Same goes for close combat. We actually have specific training just for those events (MOUT).

You could add overheating fairly easily. Just base it on shots fired like recoil but have it continue across turns with cooling systems reducing it by an amount each turn. Overheated weapons would add a stacking gremlins quality till you eventually glitch either jamming or barrel melting or whatever. You would have to tinker a bit to get it balanced but it wouldn't be that hard.

Right, but considering it takes two minutes to reach a hot barrel... How many Combat Turns do you know SR firefights normally last?

EDIT: For elaboration.

[binarywraith]

I don't think I've ever seen a 40 turn firefight in SR.

[FuelDrop]

I don't think I've ever seen a 40 turn firefight in SR.

well, assuming 2 action phases per turn and suppressing fire every action phase (in order to overheat the barrel as fast as possible) you're looking at, what, 16 hundred rounds of ammunition used? I've never seen a runner team who took that much on a run between them. Even if you say that reloading costs enough actions to drop it down to 15 hundred rounds and you're using normal ammunition then you just blew 3 grand in ammo and I'm fairly sure the cops are on their way at this point because your suppressor died after the first three hundred rounds or so.

How much does 15 hundred rounds of machine gun ammo in 100 round belts even weigh? you'd need a backpack full of the stuff!

[thorya]

I don't think I've ever seen a 40 turn firefight in SR.

I saw one that was going that way until I just GM hand waved it to be over. Both of them had taken big wound penalties, used up their ammunition, had the rest of their teams occupied or taken out and were reduced to one-on-one with one of them trying to pistol whip while the other tried to stab with a combat knife. I think they were rolling 3 or 4 dice each. Both of them were wearing at least armored jackets and I think they had more armor to boot. After about the 4 or 5 hits that were completely soaked, I suggested that the player just roll an intimidate check to convince the other guy to give up.

But neither one of them was likely to melt their barrels in that fight.

[KarmaInferno]

How much does 15 hundred rounds of machine gun ammo in 100 round belts even weigh? you'd need a backpack full of the stuff!

You need some of these.




-k

[FuelDrop]

You need some of these.




-k

I like that.

[binarywraith]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNAohtjG14c