Question About Limits Options

[Faelan]

Faelan, I completely disagree with your line of reasoning. I have played D&D since the red & blue box sets and I have always used minis. That is just my style of play. I am a tactical person and I need to see the situation visually. Now over the years things have evolved/devolved for me (i.e. using pieces of paper instead of minis, using glass beads, etc.) in fact I have now switched to VTT (virtual tabletop) programs and use icons. But in the same vein, I have watched games played where they never use minis... even in a 4e game! It totally depends on the group that is playing. In my group we always use minis, even is SR3, but only in combat situations so that everyone knows where the cover is, and where the exits are,... and to keep the GM's brain from frying (that would be mine btw).

Also the game-breaking with feats actually started in AD&D 2e... and there is always a counter to any "game-breaking" combo. You may not have been thought of yet, but there is one out there. I've seen D&D games where the wish spell/items are truly game breakers... however, in my games the players treat wish items as cursed items. It all depends on the thought process of the GM.

YMMV. I hate using miniatures, always have, always will, probably because I have had so many space starved games (the bowels of a ship are not an ideal place for them). So games that lean that way I either completely avoid or bend to work for my table. I have yet to have a group or play with a group that liked miniatures, just lucky for me I guess. Regardless the point is it does not look like 5E will work for me at this time. I have every 4E book, I like 4E, I like some of the clarifications in 5E, but really don't like limits. In other words I have zero pressing reasons to change, so why should I. Also while there is a counter to any game breaking combo it should not have to always be the GM fixing it. How many flaws does 4E have? Many. I have fixes for all of them in my games. 5E starts off from an even more challenging position mechanically to maintain balance, and quite frankly I expect them to at least screw up as much crap as was screwed up in the last edition...why would I sign on to fixing all those mistakes for my game again? Sorry incremental improvement is not compelling unless the game support is there, and based on there history with errata and FAQ's I am not holding my breath.

[mister__joshua]

YMMV. I hate using miniatures, always have, always will, probably because I have had so many space starved games (the bowels of a ship are not an ideal place for them). So games that lean that way I either completely avoid or bend to work for my table. I have yet to have a group or play with a group that liked miniatures, just lucky for me I guess. Regardless the point is it does not look like 5E will work for me at this time. I have every 4E book, I like 4E, I like some of the clarifications in 5E, but really don't like limits. In other words I have zero pressing reasons to change, so why should I. Also while there is a counter to any game breaking combo it should not have to always be the GM fixing it. How many flaws does 4E have? Many. I have fixes for all of them in my games. 5E starts off from an even more challenging position mechanically to maintain balance, and quite frankly I expect them to at least screw up as much crap as was screwed up in the last edition...why would I sign on to fixing all those mistakes for my game again? Sorry incremental improvement is not compelling unless the game support is there, and based on there history with errata and FAQ's I am not holding my breath.

I too hate the use of minis, and so do my group. For me it spoils some of the imagination of a scene, though each to their own. We do use hastily drawn maps with circles and crosses on when we are struggling to picture the layout the GM describes.

We've played 3rd edition DnD, 4th Edition Shadowrun and 5th Editions Shadowrun without using minis and have not seen any need to introduce them. The only rpg I've ever found them to be necessary was 4th DnD and we put that down after one session never to be played again (and a wasted £50). I think 5th works fine without minis, or we wouldn't be playing it. FWIW Limits haven't really impacted on our game at all. I quite like the idea, but so rarely does anyone hit a limit that they may as well not be there, so if that's your concern then you should be fine. Maybe our party isn't min/maxed enough to run into the problems you envisage...

[Faelan]

I too hate the use of minis, and so do my group. For me it spoils some of the imagination of a scene, though each to their own. We do use hastily drawn maps with circles and crosses on when we are struggling to picture the layout the GM describes.

We've played 3rd edition DnD, 4th Edition Shadowrun and 5th Editions Shadowrun without using minis and have not seen any need to introduce them. The only rpg I've ever found them to be necessary was 4th DnD and we put that down after one session never to be played again (and a wasted £50). I think 5th works fine without minis, or we wouldn't be playing it. FWIW Limits haven't really impacted on our game at all. I quite like the idea, but so rarely does anyone hit a limit that they may as well not be there, so if that's your concern then you should be fine. Maybe our party isn't min/maxed enough to run into the problems you envisage...

Good to hear. Most of what I envisage is a down the road issue, why run a game you know will result in issues when you reach a certain point in the campaign life is the question I am mulling over.

[RHat]

Good to hear. Most of what I envisage is a down the road issue, why run a game you know will result in issues when you reach a certain point in the campaign life is the question I am mulling over.

An issue that isn't there if people are improving their limits, which is part of progression.

[Faelan]

An issue that isn't there if people are improving their limits, which is part of progression.

Until you hit the wall. Plus people are far more likely to develop skills, now they are forced to also develop attributes to get the benefit of the skills.

[RHat]

Until you hit the wall. Plus people are far more likely to develop skills, now they are forced to also develop attributes to get the benefit of the skills.

You mean progression can't be completely one-dimensional anymore? Ye gods!

[Faelan]

You mean progression can't be completely one-dimensional anymore? Ye gods!

So obviously you are fine with that. That's your prerogative for your games. I am not fine with that, and that is equally my prerogative. Skill is something I always prefer to see emphasized over raw talent in any game system, not seeing how that is really the case any more, and yes I had this same problem with 4E where skills were capped at 6.

[Smash]

So obviously you are fine with that. That's your prerogative for your games. I am not fine with that, and that is equally my prerogative. Skill is something I always prefer to see emphasized over raw talent in any game system, not seeing how that is really the case any more, and yes I had this same problem with 4E where skills were capped at 6.

That's a totally legitimate position for you to have. However, I can't help but feel that you had already come to that position before posting your initial questions and that you are simply fishing for validation.

That's fine as well, it's just that you could have framed it as such and gotten what you were looking for.

[RHat]

So obviously you are fine with that. That's your prerogative for your games. I am not fine with that, and that is equally my prerogative. Skill is something I always prefer to see emphasized over raw talent in any game system, not seeing how that is really the case any more, and yes I had this same problem with 4E where skills were capped at 6.

Skills represent a larger overall contribution to your dice pools, however, given that skill+specialization can be up to 14/15 dice for mundanes, and for adepts (Improved Ability included) 20-22. And given that there's already a wide array of non-attribute ways to increase limits, characters have other options than increasing their attributes - and that variety will only increase in time.

[Jhaiisiin]

One thing on limits: If you're hitting your limits consistently, it means one of two things. Either you need to improve the stats linked to that limit, or you need to make different choices about how you act. Limits were installed to make it so all the mechanics worked more similar. Previously, only spellcasting had a limit (Force). Everything else was unlimited. To bring everything else in line with that mechanic, they built limits.

And really, the idea has a basis in real life. No matter how skilled you are in something (skill and knowledge), you're not going to be exceptional unless you also have the inborn talent (your stats and attributes). Similarly, no matter how skilled a person is, if they're using the wrong or inferior tools, their performance will suffer. Skilled people will know how to coax more out of their gear than someone less so (called shots, adjusting weapon choke, etc, all doable because they have the extra dice to spare on these options). Is the limit system the best way of modeling this? Maybe not, but it's not completely out of left field either.

An example from my own group is that we have a berserker viking troll with a combat axe. He consistently hits his accuracy limit when making single attacks, so he started splitting his dice pool for multiple attacks. Now he attacks twice, doesn't hit his limit as often, and that second swing is always putting the opponent at a negative due to previous dodging. It racks up the modifiers quick for our team, given those negatives are cumulative. This works well with the rest of the team, including our face who, as he says "I shoot fast. Not accurate." So we rack up "dodged previous attack" modifiers quick on big bads, and they suddenly find themselves lacking in defense when it matters.

Everyone is going to have their preferences. 5E is forcing people to branch out and improve more than just one facet of a character. That's fine in my world. Clearly you aren't okay with that. That's fine too. Your decision to not move to 5E may be the best for your group. That's also fine. To each their own.

[Faelan]

That's a totally legitimate position for you to have. However, I can't help but feel that you had already come to that position before posting your initial questions and that you are simply fishing for validation.

That's fine as well, it's just that you could have framed it as such and gotten what you were looking for.

I have never fished for validation. I have never been an "Edition Hound", I really want to like the new edition, I am just having issues accepting the direction of the game, not a thing I have had an issue with in the past with pretty much any system.

[Faelan]

Skills represent a larger overall contribution to your dice pools, however, given that skill+specialization can be up to 14/15 dice for mundanes, and for adepts (Improved Ability included) 20-22. And given that there's already a wide array of non-attribute ways to increase limits, characters have other options than increasing their attributes - and that variety will only increase in time.

Except only one third of that will ever matter...ever...unless you use edge. It ain't rocket science, the average is what is burning me.

[RHat]

Except only one third of that will ever matter...ever...unless you use edge. It ain't rocket science, the average is what is burning me.

One third, on precisely what basis?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

One third, on precisely what basis?

Well, average Limits that I have encountered are in the 5-8 Range (I think I have looked at a Character than had a Mental Limit of 10, which is the highest I have seen)... If you can get, as a Starting Character (and I know that you can), a DP of 18-20... then you are potentially losing hits. Sadly, I have witnessed many games where a DP of that magnitude can often gain 12+ Hits (did so last night with a DP of 17 with NO EDGE expenditure, though it is an SR4A Game currently). So, the Limits of the Character in SR5 would have denied me the benefit of that pretty awesome roll. Even if it is a fluke. The dice are rolled often enough that such things will happen on a routine basis if you have enough people involved (Hell, I have seen Small DP's net hits equal to their DP often enough to know that I would be pretty peeved to lose 2-3 Hits routinely). Maybe it won't ever happen in SR5, but I am not going to hold my Breath, since I see it happen in each and every game session at least a few times.

[Faelan]

Well, average Limits that I have encountered are in the 5-8 Range (I think I have looked at a Character than had a Mental Limit of 10, which is the highest I have seen)... If you can get, as a Starting Character (and I know that you can), a DP of 18-20... then you are potentially losing hits. Sadly, I have witnessed many games where a DP of that magnitude can often gain 12+ Hits (did so last night with a DP of 17 with NO EDGE expenditure, though it is an SR4A Game currently). So, the Limits of the Character in SR5 would have denied me the benefit of that pretty awesome roll. Even if it is a fluke. The dice are rolled often enough that such things will happen on a routine basis if you have enough people involved (Hell, I have seen Small DP's net hits equal to their DP often enough to know that I would be pretty peeved to lose 2-3 Hits routinely). Maybe it won't ever happen in SR5, but I am not going to hold my Breath, since I see it happen in each and every game session at least a few times.

Exactly what my thinking on the matter is since I have had a very similar experience at the table.

[RHat]

I'm sorry, but the idea that someone would have a skill that high and do nothing at all about their limit is frankly disingenuous. Maybe they don't want to raise attributes, but they'd certainly be doing SOMETHING about it.

If an Adept has that 20 dice from skill and specialization, and an attribute of 4 (since you want characters who don't really focus on attributes), that's 24 dice. Now, they are going to want to crank their limit pretty high - up to about 11, for example, if they want to be losing hits less than 10% of the time. So they find thigns that help them increase that limit.

[Faelan]

I'm sorry, but the idea that someone would have a skill that high and do nothing at all about their limit is frankly disingenuous. Maybe they don't want to raise attributes, but they'd certainly be doing SOMETHING about it.

Not trying to be disingenuous, just looking at costs. Attributes are expensive, skills are cheap comparatively. As to doing SOMETHING about it please share, if you know something we don't I would love to hear it.

If an Adept has that 20 dice from skill and specialization, and an attribute of 4 (since you want characters who don't really focus on attributes), that's 24 dice. Now, they are going to want to crank their limit pretty high - up to about 11, for example, if they want to be losing hits less than 10% of the time. So they find thigns that help them increase that limit.

Once again how? Outside of jacking up Attributes is there any way (I know you can get 1 for an Adept Power)? 24 dice with an 11 limit is still going to result in blow through at lest at my table. My players often get pretty lucky, without Edge.

[DeathStrobe]

An example from my own group is that we have a berserker viking troll with a combat axe. He consistently hits his accuracy limit when making single attacks, so he started splitting his dice pool for multiple attacks. Now he attacks twice, doesn't hit his limit as often, and that second swing is always putting the opponent at a negative due to previous dodging. It racks up the modifiers quick for our team, given those negatives are cumulative. This works well with the rest of the team, including our face who, as he says "I shoot fast. Not accurate." So we rack up "dodged previous attack" modifiers quick on big bads, and they suddenly find themselves lacking in defense when it matters.

I totally forgot about dual wielding. That's the best way to handle high dice pools.

Lets say we got our munchkin Street Sam, 10 agility, 12 skill, so 22 dp. 11dp per hand. We tack on some situational bonuses; 2 specialization, 2 smartlink, ambidextrous (so we can ignore the off hand penalty); so that's now 15dp per hand.

Lets say we're dual wielding the SCK Model 100, which has an accuracy of 7. The odds of getting over 7 hits is something like 9% or something. Meaning pretty unlikely, but lets say we want it even lower than that. Sadly, we spent our free action to dual wield, so we won't be able to do a called shot, but what we can do, since we're using SMGs, we can do a full auto burst. The SCK only has 1RC using its folding stock, so lets add some more RC. Gas Vent 3, and a Shockpad for a total of 5RC. Then since we're a munchkin we'll probably have 10 str so that's 5 natural RC, so that's 10 RC, so our first burst will sadly not take any recoil. However, our target does take a -9 to dodge from the first gun's burst, and a -10 from the second gun's burst.

I'm going to be honest, if you are at the point of the game, where you are firing fullauto long bursts, while dual wielding, and your biggest concern is limits. I just have no idea what it is you think you are going to have a problem with. I guess a dragon would put up a good fight, but...shouldn't they?

[RHat]

Things that increase Inherent Limits:

Indomitable: +1 to an Inherent Limit; may be taken 3 times, with the cumulative +3 being to 1 Limit or split as the player likes
Special Work Area: +2 to Mental Limit while working in the space
Novacoke: +1 to Social Limit
Enhanced Articulation: +1 to Physical Limit
Tailored Pheromones: +Rating to Social Limit
Mnemonic Enhancer: +Rating to Mental Limit
Hydraulic Jacks: +Rating to Limit for jumping and sprinting
Skillwires Wireless Bonus: +1 to relevant inherent limit
Medkit: +Rating to limit on First Aid tests
Autopicker: +Rating to limit when picking mechanical locks
Spatial Recognizer: +2 to limit on Perception tests to locate source of sound
Audio Enhancement: +Rating to limit on aural Perception
Vision Enhancement: +Rating to limit on visual Perception
Shopsoft: +1 to Social Limit for Availability and Negotiation tests to buy and sell items in 'soft's category.
Mapsoft: +1 to Limit for Navigation in their area
Datasoft: +1 to Mental Limit on related Knowledge tests.
Thermal Damping: +Rating to limit on Sneaking against thermo.
Chameleon Suit: +2 to limit when making Sneaking tests to hide
Psyche: +1 Mental Limit
Nitro: +2 Physical Limit
Kamikaze: +2 Physical Limit
Jazz: +1 Physical Limit
Deepweed: +1 Mental Limit
Street Cred: Bonus to Limit in all Social Tests where reputation would be known.
Voice Control: +Level to Social Limit
Improved Potential: +Level to Limit of choice


So... A lot more than one Adept power.

Once again how? Outside of jacking up Attributes is there any way (I know you can get 1 for an Adept Power)? 24 dice with an 11 limit is still going to result in blow through at lest at my table. My players often get pretty lucky, without Edge.

Right, I was grabbing a statistical number: That dice pool would roll 12 or more successes 6.77% of the time. Take the limit to 12, and you're looking at losses 2.84% of the time, or 1.03 at 13.

[Faelan]

Things that increase Inherent Limits:

Indomitable: +1 to an Inherent Limit; may be taken 3 times, with the cumulative +3 being to 1 Limit or split as the player likes
Special Work Area: +2 to Mental Limit while working in the space
Novacoke: +1 to Social Limit
Enhanced Articulation: +1 to Physical Limit
Tailored Pheromones: +Rating to Social Limit
Mnemonic Enhancer: +Rating to Mental Limit
Hydraulic Jacks: +Rating to Limit for jumping and sprinting
Skillwires Wireless Bonus: +1 to relevant inherent limit
Medkit: +Rating to limit on First Aid tests
Autopicker: +Rating to limit when picking mechanical locks
Spatial Recognizer: +2 to limit on Perception tests to locate source of sound
Audio Enhancement: +Rating to limit on aural Perception
Vision Enhancement: +Rating to limit on visual Perception
Shopsoft: +1 to Social Limit for Availability and Negotiation tests to buy and sell items in 'soft's category.
Mapsoft: +1 to Limit for Navigation in their area
Datasoft: +1 to Mental Limit on related Knowledge tests.
Thermal Damping: +Rating to limit on Sneaking against thermo.
Chameleon Suit: +2 to limit when making Sneaking tests to hide
Psyche: +1 Mental Limit
Nitro: +2 Physical Limit
Kamikaze: +2 Physical Limit
Jazz: +1 Physical Limit
Deepweed: +1 Mental Limit
Street Cred: Bonus to Limit in all Social Tests where reputation would be known.
Voice Control: +Level to Social Limit
Improved Potential: +Level to Limit of choice


So... A lot more than one Adept power.

Impressive certainly more than I thought, but just another thing to buy so they can use their skill. I guess if the intent was to make people diversify they achieved it. I'll wait and see what else comes down the pipe. Right now it seems like they want you to play an augmented character, or a drug addict, and everyone will be running around with Indomitable. I get why they did it, but I will reserve judgement until I see more.

[Smash]

Not trying to be disingenuous, just looking at costs. Attributes are expensive, skills are cheap comparatively. As to doing SOMETHING about it please share, if you know something we don't I would love to hear it.

Raising skills is not cheap, as raising a skill group costs the same as raising a stat.

So what you're proposing is that you may want to spend say 14 karma raising a melee skill from 6 to 7, but not spend 20 karma to raise your agility from say 3 to 4 which raises your dice pools on almost ALL the physical skills in the game and your limit (potentially) AND choose not not raise your edge and then be upset with the system because you now have a crappy limit? That seems pretty counter intuitive.

Can I ask something? If run and gun has a karma cost for raising a weapon's limit will that make the system more acceptable?

Actually, in hindsight I'm kind of amazed that specializing in a weapon doesn't already do it.............

[Sendaz]

Actually, in hindsight I'm kind of amazed that specializing in a weapon doesn't already do it.............

That may be a good houserule to consider when you figure a specialist is going to squeeze that little bit more out of the weapon than someone just walking up and picking up a weapon they are only moderately familiar with.

[Faelan]

Raising skills is not cheap, as raising a skill group costs the same as raising a stat.

So what you're proposing is that you may want to spend say 14 karma raising a melee skill from 6 to 7, but not spend 20 karma to raise your agility from say 3 to 4 which raises your dice pools on almost ALL the physical skills in the game and your limit (potentially) AND choose not not raise your edge and then be upset with the system because you now have a crappy limit? That seems pretty counter intuitive.

Can I ask something? If run and gun has a karma cost for raising a weapon's limit will that make the system more acceptable?

Actually, in hindsight I'm kind of amazed that specializing in a weapon doesn't already do it.............

Certainly, it will go a long way towards helping it, of course if everyone wants it, well that is generally considered poor game design.

In most of my games Skill Groups are quickly abandoned after character creation. Some players will stick with them, they are also the ones who will raise Attributes with karma, while the rest of the group goes for the quick joy of getting lots of dice to roll by raising a single skill in that skill group. If a GM is really pushing them the immediate need of more dice is the slot that is going to get filled instead of the carefully picked "greater benefit", since the benefit that pays immediate dividends will likely be the one keeping them alive.