Hackers in 5th Edition, Decker vs. Technomancer Options

[Moirdryd]

Well, this is the first time out using a TM with my House rules in effect (or indeed using a TM). This group has played only a little SR before (two runs back in 3rd a few years ago) so they're pretty new to it all and my experience with 5th is still farly new (did a few one off test runs with prepare chars). So we're learning together a little. Will probabley drop the Resonance Veil back to closer to RAW for is usage (it didn't really matter for the intro session/session zero) but will try and keep people abreast of developments.

[SpellBinder]

Sounds like you all skipped SR4 entirely. A word a friend of mine who did just that has a word for how he feels about technomancers as they are written in SR5: phenomenal.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Sounds like you all skipped SR4 entirely. A word a friend of mine who did just that has a word for how he feels about technomancers as they are written in SR5: phenomenal.

I like them, but they do have design flaws. Many if not all fo the complex forms have too high of a drain making them virtually unusable being the biggest flaw. They will roll 2 less dice on average compared to a decker and honestly their growth is hamstrung too much as they only have 1 resource to pull from(karma) when the decker gets to use both his karma and cash to improve himself. Still people devalue sprites far far too much, its pretty easy to spin up a force 6 one at char gen, hell even a fore 8 isn't that hard though the drain is physical and you can't heal it. Once they get their resonance up a bit the can spin up force 8s without physical drain. And a couple of their complex forms are solid even with the overly high drain.

-2 drain across the board, and I think I'd allow resonance to be the attribute that all decking skills worked off of, not just the 3 resonance ones. Those 2 things would get them more in line with balance as opposed to somewhat weak.

[DMiller]

-2 drain across the board, and I think I'd allow resonance to be the attribute that all decking skills worked off of, not just the 3 resonance ones. Those 2 things would get them more in line with balance as opposed to somewhat weak.

I like this idea. But I'd make one minor change...

If the Technomancer is using her Bio-node, decking skills are based on Resonance, however if she is using a cyberdeck they work as normal for a Decker.

[Jaid]

I like them, but they do have design flaws. Many if not all fo the complex forms have too high of a drain making them virtually unusable being the biggest flaw. They will roll 2 less dice on average compared to a decker and honestly their growth is hamstrung too much as they only have 1 resource to pull from(karma) when the decker gets to use both his karma and cash to improve himself. Still people devalue sprites far far too much, its pretty easy to spin up a force 6 one at char gen, hell even a fore 8 isn't that hard though the drain is physical and you can't heal it. Once they get their resonance up a bit the can spin up force 8s without physical drain. And a couple of their complex forms are solid even with the overly high drain.

-2 drain across the board, and I think I'd allow resonance to be the attribute that all decking skills worked off of, not just the 3 resonance ones. Those 2 things would get them more in line with balance as opposed to somewhat weak.

registering sprites took a few very harsh nerfs, actually, so getting sprites beforehand is not so easy.

for example, telling your sprite to leave for a day: costs you a task.

re-registering your sprite: costs a task.

so basically, you get your one compiled sprite (which generates OS, but honestly unless you need it sitting around for several hours, and you don't feel like cleaning up it's OS constantly, that's not a huge deal anyways).

and compiled tasks aren't so great either:

A single use of a sprite power
one Combat Turn worth of Matrix actions that apply to the same job
participation in cybercombat that lasts until all of the enemy combatants have been defeated or you’ve escaped to safety.

so ummm... they sure as hang aren't gonna get much done for you in the way of hacking. cybercombat, well, if you've reached that point you're already screwed. but yeah, the sprite powers are pretty cool. and their best uses are generally to boost other people... removing glitches and downgrading critical glitches is awesome, giving bonus dicepool and limit to allies that are using devices, and making enemy devices glitch is pretty nifty.

so while sprites are pretty great, they are unfortunately not that great for hacking. none of the registered tasks are particularly great for getting a sprite to help out with hacking either.

for example, in SR4 assist operation boosted the rating of a complex form. in SR5, it just gives you more dice to thread that complex form. none of the registered sprite tasks help in any way with fading, which is one of the most crippling drawbacks to technomancers.

technomancers went from being the gods of the matrix to being the stepping stool upon which deckers stand in order to be even more awesome in the matrix. and they still pay just as much for the privilege, for some unfathomable reason.

that said, i'm sure various organizations are more than happy to recruit them (willingly or otherwise). because, i mean, they can do some *really* useful stuff, including freeing up your magicians who can stop spending all their spirit services (which cost money) on improving the performance of various devices (and/or sabotaging your competitors' devices) so that they can use them to do more awesome stuff. they may not be able to do stuff over and over again, but honestly, how often do you need a cyberdeck's matrix attributes boosted dramatically anyways? certainly, keeping a technomancer on hand will be less resources than upgrading your hardware...

after all, just because it makes a boring character concept that you essentially give the other people in your group some nifty bonuses to do their thing, doesn't mean it isn't really useful. especially since many/most organizations won't care if the technomancer is completely useless in other areas; most people don't need to slip self-sufficient teams through extremely tight security on a regular basis, after all.

[RHat]

after all, just because it makes a boring character concept that you essentially give the other people in your group some nifty bonuses to do their thing, doesn't mean it isn't really useful.

However, that being all they're good for is completely un-fucking-acceptable. The Face can give everyone nifty bonuses, but he's also really damn good at his thing. The Mage can give everyone nifty bonus, but he's also really damn good at his own thing. So being able to give people nifty bonuses, but being really damn bad at your own thing, whilst paying huge amounts for the privilege? Ridiculous.

[Jaid]

However, that being all they're good for is completely un-fucking-acceptable. The Face can give everyone nifty bonuses, but he's also really damn good at his thing. The Mage can give everyone nifty bonus, but he's also really damn good at his own thing. So being able to give people nifty bonuses, but being really damn bad at your own thing, whilst paying huge amounts for the privilege? Ridiculous.

oh, i quite agree. it's absolutely terrible for something that's *supposed* to be a character archetype.

but from a setting perspective, technomancers are still quite useful. heck, if you had an NPC technomancer in the group, they'd be quite useful to the group.

but as it stands, they're basically a noob trap.

[SpellBinder]

...

but from a setting perspective, technomancers are still quite useful. heck, if you had an NPC technomancer in the group, they'd be quite useful to the group.

...

Yeah, as a sidekick *cough* erm, 'hero support.'

[Shinobi Killfist]

But they are actually fairly solid hackers. So this ridiculous hyperbole, doesn't solve anything. They aren't just good for buffing others, they actually can and do hack well. Sure registering sprites took a hit, but just like my mages rarely if ever bind, the summoning side is pretty solid. No forcex2 thing, just force. They roll less dice than a hacker but by only 2 dice, and while the complex forms cost too much drain they have useful tricks. Yeah no programs sucks, but its a fairly minor knock. Are they underpowered? Sure, but only good for buffing others is an absurd over reaction.

[RHat]

But they are actually fairly solid hackers. So this ridiculous hyperbole, doesn't solve anything. They aren't just good for buffing others, they actually can and do hack well. Sure registering sprites took a hit, but just like my mages rarely if ever bind, the summoning side is pretty solid. No forcex2 thing, just force. They roll less dice than a hacker but by only 2 dice, and while the complex forms cost too much drain they have useful tricks. Yeah no programs sucks, but its a fairly minor knock. Are they underpowered? Sure, but only good for buffing others is an absurd over reaction.

The problem is, they're substantially less powerful than their also-more-versatile counterparts - and even to get to THAT, they're relying on 5 Attributes and 6-9 Skills, against the Decker's 3 and 3-6. And how's about we stop and compare the usefulness of summoned spirits to compiled sprites?

And "no programs" isn't a fairly minor knock; it's an absence of core functionality.

[Shinobi Killfist]

The problem is, they're substantially less powerful than their also-more-versatile counterparts - and even to get to THAT, they're relying on 5 Attributes and 6-9 Skills, against the Decker's 3 and 3-6. And how's about we stop and compare the usefulness of summoned spirits to compiled sprites?

And "no programs" isn't a fairly minor knock; it's an absence of core functionality.

They are less powerful but its not substantial. It is fairly minor which combined with their less versatile nature should be addressed. and yes spirits are ridiculously overpowered without the GM stooping all over them, and sprites are not. Sprites are about where spirits should be. And yes programs are fairly minor, there are only a couple useful ones and the effect is not that massive.

[tjn]

They aren't just good for buffing others, they actually can and do hack well.

Yes they can get the job done, but deckers usually just have more dice to do the same job. And they require more character creation resources to achieve that second place to deckers. And deckers can improve their role through both nuyen and karma. And deckers have less stats to improve in their main function, so the nuyen and karma go farther. And deckers are not almost useless outside the matrix and can easily pick up other supporting roles. And spirits and CFs took some major hits from the nerf bat; some to the point of questionable utility at all. And it takes a pair of submersions to be the equal of a rigger straight out of character creation. And the technomancer's niche is enabling other characters to be awesome, and not to be awesome themselves.

And, and, and... and at what point does one throw their hands up in frustration? I've reached mine.

[SpellBinder]

The problem is, they're substantially less powerful than their also-more-versatile counterparts - and even to get to THAT, they're relying on 5 Attributes and 6-9 Skills, against the Decker's 3 and 3-6. And how's about we stop and compare the usefulness of summoned spirits to compiled sprites?

And "no programs" isn't a fairly minor knock; it's an absence of core functionality.

Not to mention that if I converted a technomancer character in a story of mine from SR4 to SR5 rules he'd get a Shiawase Cyber-5 (a flexible 8765 vs. his fixed 5556) and most (if not all) of the available programs for free. By the time the story is actually advanced to 2075 I'm sure he'd be able to get a Fairlight Excalibur instead, a cyberdeck that has better stats than the character will ever have without spending 379 karma in echos and attribute increases from where he's at now just to match it with his living persona.

And even then, the deck's got the versatility of being able to swap its stats around (and bolster further with select programs), where the technomancer is locked in with what he's got.

[FuelDrop]

What options for dealing non matrix damage in matrix combat do technomancers have? Deckers use programs for it...

[SpellBinder]

Deal enough matrix damage to dumpshock the decker. Without submersion for an echo to add Resonance Biofeedback to their list of abilities they have no other option.

Minimum 13 karma for a technomancer; 250¥ for the decker.

[RHat]

They are less powerful but its not substantial. It is fairly minor which combined with their less versatile nature should be addressed. and yes spirits are ridiculously overpowered without the GM stooping all over them, and sprites are not. Sprites are about where spirits should be. And yes programs are fairly minor, there are only a couple useful ones and the effect is not that massive.

... Sprites are where spirits should be? What do you have against dedicated summoners? Spirits are FINE until you get into major oversummoning, and that's pretty easily dealt with while staying in the rules (Edge on oversummoning).

But it IS substantial - especially when we start factoring in passive Noise reduction (remember, Resonance Channel works only against distance based Noise), Noise elimination due to direct connections, the dramatic differences in opposing dice pools due to direct connections, the highly flexible and cheaply boosted deck attributes (and thus limits, defensive ability, base DV, and initiative)...

As for programs? Baby Monitor is core functionality. Fork is core functionality. Sneak is core functionality. Many of the others, such as the biofeedback options, are a big deal, and stuff like Defuse can be hugely important. Between everything, mundanes are far, far, far better at using the Matrix than technomancers - what the hell is up with that?

[FuelDrop]

I'll go you one better and say that adepts (AKA magic users) trump both mundanes and technomancers in the matrix. Sure, you're either bleeding magic or dice when you choose between an implanted datajack and keeping full essence but Adepts can get a ton of extra dice through improved ability.

[RHat]

I'll go you one better and say that adepts (AKA magic users) trump both mundanes and technomancers in the matrix. Sure, you're either bleeding magic or dice when you choose between an implanted datajack and keeping full essence but Adepts can get a ton of extra dice through improved ability.

And if they're taking the datajack, they can safely get the full freight for Cerebral Boosters. Plus, there's skill/role flexibility due to Qi Foci.

[Jaid]

yeah, 1 point of essence in augmentations is a very good buy for an adept decker. honestly, being willing to spend some essence on 'ware works better for combat abilities too, though. it's basically something to consider for *every* type of adept.

for example, it costs 4 power points to get rating 3 improved reflexes. with bioware, you can get that for 1.5 essence, and still have 0.5 essence left for other 'ware options that are less expensive than the adept equivalent (for example, cybereyes and cyberears, when adept senses cost 0.25 PP each).

but yeah, lightly cybered adept decker is the way to go if you want maximum effectiveness.

it's kinda sad that given the option of either making a generically magical decker, or an archetype that is specifically designed to be basically a magical decker, the special archetype is worse in almost every way.

[Kyrinthic]

The problem is, they're substantially less powerful than their also-more-versatile counterparts - and even to get to THAT, they're relying on 5 Attributes and 6-9 Skills, against the Decker's 3 and 3-6. And how's about we stop and compare the usefulness of summoned spirits to compiled sprites?

And "no programs" isn't a fairly minor knock; it's an absence of core functionality.

disclaimer: Adept deckers are a different sort of issue, and I am not going to try and touch them here.

A decker does not get any more dice on decking than the TM does if they both take level 3 Cerebral boosters (only level 2 available at start, mind), and the TM is only down 1 point of resonance for taking them, with room to spare.

If the decker and TM both drop their A in cash and resonance respectively, they are going to have about the same amount of skill points to spend, since the TM gets free points to cover those extra 3 skills to some extent. If you drop them into threading and compiling, you are fine unless you run into an enemy TM, and at that point, you are not any more screwed than the decker in the same spot.

Stats can be rough for the TM, they need a lot of them, and the decker doesnt need as many. They will spend more here, and the Decker will be a lot more survivable in meatspace, especially because they can cyber up more defensively. You are going to see a lot of TM's dumping important physical stats that a decker wont as much. That said, a TM can get stats on par with the 400k deck out of the gate, which is not minor, but they will have to invest in stats B if they want it.

So now you are down to threading/compiling vs programs. Especially if you lower the high fading costs of threading, its a very even compare I think, they both have some great functionality that the other does not. Programs tend to be more passive benefits, but CFs tend to be larger benefits with a cost.

Overall, I think a TM can be on par with a decker at the core job, and have a handful of nifty tricks. I think a long game with submersion and high resonance attained, they could very well surpass a decker. But I think they suffer the most in terms of meatspace vulnerability, of any class really.

[Jaid]

so wait, you're saying that a technomancer, with resonance A, attributes B, and skills presumably in C (anything less than that is bloody awful,and frankly the technomancer is *still* going to be well behind the decker in skills because the higher you go in skills priority the more you gain) is going to compare to a decker with resources A, skills B, and attributes C?

not to mention, we've already used up your top 3 priorities in this case on the technomancer (which is one of the few characters that actually *needs* to have attributes at a high value), how are you affording those cerebral boosters?

furthermore, programs are not negligible. you can swap programs freely. heck, you can swap everything about your deck easily, you just need to have enough copies of a 250 nuyen program to have every configuration you want prepped (note: you cannot *run* more than one copy of a program at a time. you can have as many copies as you want, though, so long as only one of them is running at a time).

so let's suppose that the technomancer does actually manage to get stats high enough to match the stats on that rating 4 cyberdeck. how does he match the fact that the stats on a cyberdeck can be exchanged on a whim? how does he match the fact that, for example, when making an attack action the cyberdeck can run programs that boost attack rating and increase the damage from attacks? the technomancer needs to thread every time he wants to make two edit actions at a time. the hacker can just run the fork program. the technomancer has to submerge to boost his deck rating. the hacker can just run appropriate programs as needed.

threading is not equivalent to programs, with or without stupidly high fading ratings. the puppet one is pretty good, and a couple of others are kinda neat, but over all, they are generally at best letting you do things that you could do with a regular hacker, slightly better... which is outmatched by the superior dice pools a hacker can bring to the table (on account of actually having a chance at affording those cerebral boosters since they don't have resources dumped).

not to mention that even if you do manage to get cerebral boosters on a technomancer, it's hurting the one thing they spent so much on.

[Kyrinthic]

It depends, if that hacker wants to buy the top deck, he is forking out 345k of his 450k, leaving 95k. That nets a 7654. I technomancer I threw together had 7755. Cant change them, but they were slightly better stats. But taking Prio B on stats does mean you arent buying the bioware at creation easily. And of course the 4 device rating on the deck compared to 5-6 on a TM.

The decker can afford the bioware, but that and the good deck, and programs, leaves him with effective resources of less than D for buying other crap he might want, and then he is as squishy in meatspace as the TM.

Both players can push skills to B and take a hit to attribs, then the decker feels that hit less, but the techno above can go down to 6644, and only be about the same as the decker statwise (-1 on the max, +1 on the min, +2 DR, still less configurable though), and again have the same skills.

Mine was built with a TM that picked elf for the D and dumped resources, planning to buy boosters later, since I dont have a lot of cash items to save for after the game starts. But the TM can go human and get 50k, dump some karma into it and buy the Cerb boosters out of the gate, even with B stats. its not like he needs gobs of money for anything else really, armor is cheap.

I am not trying to say programs are negligible, they are important. But I also disagree that complex forms and sprites are negligible. TMs can do things that deckers cant, and vice versa. Being able to ignore overwatch due to time, and clean overwatch is pretty spiffy, and you cant do that on a decker any more than a TM can find out what his overwatch is. You can drop an attack program as a decker, or thread an attack buff (or better a firewall debuff on your target) as a TM.

There are choices all around, I dont think the TM is really far behind the decker the way you see it. The decker has more flexibility, and can build to be a little less optimized at decking and still fulfill other rolls where the TM cant really do that as well, but building just to poke the matrix around, they both do quite effectively.

Submersion gives even more options to help the TM, and the karma for a couple submersions is a lot easier to see happening than getting half a million nuyen for the next deck upgrade. And dont crit glitch your deck if you take a dive on the matrix, cause you arent replacing it easily either.

[Jaid]

the higher device rating on a technomancer is good for nothing. you can't slave devices, you can't protect devices. who cares if you have a high device rating.

the decker can buy future meatspace improvements without harming his ability to hack. the technomancer can't (and some of those meatspace enhancements are pretty cheap).

the decker isn't taking a hit to attributes by pushing it to B. a decker needs decent willpower, decent intuition, and good logic. the technomancer needs all of those, plus good charisma. the decker can buy combat 'ware. the technomancer can buy combat 'ware at the expense of the only thing he has going for him. furthermore, 6644 is not even close to being equivalent to a 4567 cyberdeck. that cyberdeck is rating 7 in whatever you need right now. if you need the 7 on firewall, it's firewall. if you need it on stealth or attack, it's stealth or attack. and can be cheaply boosted with programs.

if your TM can go resources B and spend karma on resources to get the bioware, then are you somehow thinking that the decker (who you noted will have the bioware in question without spending karma) cannot spend karma on resources to get some of the other combat 'ware?

sprites and complex forms have some nice uses. they're also quite painful to use, and generally are most useful as minor buffs to other characters. sprites took a massive nerfing, such that it's basically costing you 2 tasks every time you want to re-register. most of the complex forms are not doing anything that hacking can't do already. for example, a hacker may not be able to get punched in the head in exchange for reducing overwatch, but you can always just reboot your deck. presto, instantly clear your OS (overwatch due to time is mostly only a concern for technomancers because registering a high rating sprite after compiling a high rating sprite is such a kick in the nuts that they need to rest between most likely... in other words, only technomancers can ignore OS over time, and only technomancers care about that because everyone else doesn't need to stay online with OS running for hours on end). buffing your attack program means you're threading at a fairly high rating unless your attack sucks to begin with (and in fact, if it's 6 attack and you're taking some 'ware, your lowered resonance means you're eating physical damage for fading... have fun sleeping that off with your 1-2 points of body). lowering enemy attack rating is slightly better, but is also resisted... so, for example, if you thread it at rating 4 and they generate 4 hits on their defence test, you got sucker punched for no benefit whatsoever. and again, if you have 'ware, and want to thread at rating 6 to allow you to generate enough hits to do anything (let's hope you even succeed, otherwise you're right back to getting sucker punched for nothing), you're taking physical damage again. enjoy spending *days* recovering from hacking a single device.

the decker doesn't even need to sacrifice matrix effectiveness to be good at out-of-matrix things. not as good as a street sam, perhaps, but the fact that a decker can use 'ware at all without suffering a loss in matrix effectiveness is pretty significant. and some of the 'ware is easily cheap enough to add in after chargen.

submersion does give more options, most of which serve to bring you closer to where the decker started off. meanwhile, you seem to have forgotten that the decker is perfectly capable of spending karma on improving hacking too. plus, the decker can spend cash on improving in various areas. when you consider that these days, hacking more often than not includes being able to physically infiltrate a facility so that you can connect a cable to the device you're targeting, an improvement to stealth skills and/or social skills is in fact making you better at hacking. as is an improvement to your ability to climb, jump, run, etc, and your ability to shoot people accurately.

and all that is done without taking real world damage every time they hack, and without suffering penalties to their rolls both in and out of the matrix due to the amount of damage they've taken from threading. and if you think the chance for a critical glitch when repairing your cyberdeck is bad, you should consider the implications of that same critical glitch when you're trying to recover from threading, which cannot benefit from medical or magical treatment. and you have a crappy body attribute.

less cost. better dicepools. more flexibility. more competence outside of the matrix.

like I said, if you want to be a magical hacker, you're better off being a magical hacker, and make sure you have a technomancer in your contact list for buffs when you need them (for example, a sprite can negate your chance to critically glitch your repair tests when fixing matrix damage, and a technomancer friend can give all of those super-situational advantages like negating overwatch just as easily as a PC technomancer could provide them for themselves).

[FuelDrop]

I think the problem here is that everyone is hung up on getting the biggest and best decks. With the right programs a measly rating 2 deck will be sufficient for most chargen deckers, as how often are you really going to be hitting that limit of 6 (assuming program)? The extra programs are nice but it's not like it's hard to switch out if you have to.

I made an adept decker with A attributes B skills C resources D magic E metatype and basically built him to operate in AR using brute force attacks (about 15 dice in AR after hidden mode penalty). He also had 11+3d6 initiative in the meat and about 14 dice with his SMG, making him double as solid fire support. He had enough skills to be useful in almost any situation, great potential for growth, and could go VR if needed.

I promise you I couldn't make a technomancer who could match him both in and out of the matrix, and would be unlikely to be massively better in it.

[Smash]

Sounds like you all skipped SR4 entirely. A word a friend of mine who did just that has a word for how he feels about technomancers as they are written in SR5: phenomenal.

Almost all of the opinions expressed about 5th Ed on these forums are based on gut feelings from 1/2 readings of the rules. The more you put it into playing the better it gets. Technomancers may have some downsides but all in all I think they're a very playable archetype (except that they're stoopid and should die in a fire, but that's just my bias (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )