Hackers in 5th Edition, Decker vs. Technomancer Options

[Smash]

I think the problem here is that everyone is hung up on getting the biggest and best decks. With the right programs a measly rating 2 deck will be sufficient for most chargen deckers, as how often are you really going to be hitting that limit of 6 (assuming program)? The extra programs are nice but it's not like it's hard to switch out if you have to.

I made an adept decker with A attributes B skills C resources D magic E metatype and basically built him to operate in AR using brute force attacks (about 15 dice in AR after hidden mode penalty). He also had 11+3d6 initiative in the meat and about 14 dice with his SMG, making him double as solid fire support. He had enough skills to be useful in almost any situation, great potential for growth, and could go VR if needed.

I promise you I couldn't make a technomancer who could match him both in and out of the matrix, and would be unlikely to be massively better in it.

One thing though Fueldrop, and let me preface this with whatever rocks your boat, but the fact that you can make an Adept/Decker goes as far against the setting as you can get, it's like burnt out mages that still start with 4 magic and 3 essence worth of cyberware. and can still raise their magic for the same karma as long as they initiate, and why would you want to put that off anyway?

These archetypes are basically not meant to exist, or at least, the tradeoff shouldn't make it worth it from a min/max point of view. Hell, a Technomancer IS the archetype for Adept/Decker. There's a reason why you can't build them as well, they're not supposed to be that effective.

[Kyrinthic]

less cost. better dicepools. more flexibility. more competence outside of the matrix.

I will agree on more flexibility, as I did in my last post.
You are only getting better dicepools if you are heavily optimizing and the TM isnt. There is a pretty finite amount of things that add to a starting dicepool, and none of it is exclusive to a decker.

Fading is an issue, as I thought I said in the first place, and I know many people have agreed its a bit high overall, but is otherwise viable. An average TM will be able to soak about 4 fade, which is crappy, I like the idea of -2 to the fade costs across the board, it looks like about the right place to be.

Device rating is your body score in the matrix, if you think it doesnt matter, I cant help you there, but its harder to dump a TM than a decker. At least as much so as it is to KO a decker compared to a TM in meatspace (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

there are some cheap cyber/bio things, but the big ones that turn you into a real combatant and not a guy with a rifle hiding behind the sam, arent at a pricetag that works out with a top end deck. You can grow in that direction if you want, and the TM cant, as I mentioned in my post, TMs have real issues out of the matrix with survivablity. Though, for the records, a TM with a low resonance can hack just as well as a decker, resonance only affects his threading and matrix condition monitor, but it would be silly to make a TM if you plan to cyber him out.

Karma for resources sucks, straight up. The two logic boosts run ~30k, so nudging the last 10 with karma is hard but viable. The return rate for buying cash with karma in creation is silly low. You arent going to turn the leftover 20k into synaptic boosters with karma, but a small nudge into something you are close on can work.

6644 is less than 4567, in general the decker will be at +1 on the matrix attrib, but even that, its not like that means one more pool generally, its a point of limit thats above what a starting pool is going to hit outside of a lucky roll. the +2 DR is at least as relevant.

You mention needing to get into a place to hack, much of that is due to noise, which is one of the things that threading is half decent at with a soakable level 4 resonance channel, you can sit in the van a little longer. Focused concentration can be used to help maintain it, since its pretty much the best perk hands down for TMs.

I agree that TMs have some issues, and deckers have a lot more versatility, but they arent going to have bigger pools, and they arent going to be noticeably better than TMs at the primary skills in the matrix. Not unless they fully optimize and the TM doesnt. I have never tried to say that the decker wont be better at surviving in the meatworld, only that if he focuses everything into being good in the matrix, there wont be much left to spend on non-matrix things with starting allocations.

I really think that since TMs are so very similar to mages rules-wise, adding technomancer equivalents to foci would really make a ton of difference, and give a TM a reason to actually gather nuyen, I look forward to the matrix book anyhow.

[Kyrinthic]

no idea how I double posted, sorry.

[RHat]

Device rating is your body score in the matrix, if you think it doesnt matter, I cant help you there, but its harder to dump a TM than a decker. At least as much so as it is to KO a decker compared to a TM in meatspace (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Blackout program, your argument is invalid.

Also, the notion that a technomancer needs to take 'ware to be competitive is completely screwed up; it would be just like if a magician had to.

[FuelDrop]

One thing though Fueldrop, and let me preface this with whatever rocks your boat, but the fact that you can make an Adept/Decker goes as far against the setting as you can get, it's like burnt out mages that still start with 4 magic and 3 essence worth of cyberware. and can still raise their magic for the same karma as long as they initiate, and why would you want to put that off anyway?

These archetypes are basically not meant to exist, or at least, the tradeoff shouldn't make it worth it from a min/max point of view. Hell, a Technomancer IS the archetype for Adept/Decker. There's a reason why you can't build them as well, they're not supposed to be that effective.

I was toying with it to see if it could be done, and it actually worked really well. Should add that the character was never fully finished (still had karma and cash to burn, hadn't assigned knowledge skills) and still had full essence.

Sure he was theory crafted, but if finished he was fully playable and survivable with skills to cover a variety of situations both inside and outside the matrix. As to the archtype not being supposed to exist: This Adept Decker was better than pretty much any technomancer I'd theorycrafted due to flexibility and on top of that was far less vulnerable than a technomancer due to having a high initiative in AR and thus not being vulnerable to stun or physical damage due to biofeedback. Technomancers are the opposite. He was good in a fight outside of the matrix in a way that would cost most technomancers far more than it cost him. The fact is that Technomancers by their very nature sacrifice non-matrix capacity for their matrix powers, so if a decker can equal them in the matrix and still be formidable outside of it then the tradeoff isn't worth it. Technomancers have too high a price for their power.

Also forgot that he had codeslinger for an extra 2 dice on brute force attacks.

[Jaid]

[bunch of stuff, don't want giant posts]

- defensive dice pools are based on deck attributes. 6644 doesn't just mean lower limits (which isn't a big deal), it also means lower defence pools. as far as offensive dice pools, well, signal scrub is +2 to any action if you have 2+ noise. likewise, a datajack is another +1 in the same situations. the armour program is another +2 dice pool on your defence. defuse is +4 to resist data bomb damage (a pretty big bonus). shell is another bonus to defence. sneak adds to your defence against being traced. there are also a few +attributes and just flat bonuses (+1 to data bomb rating, +2 DV with attacks, +1 DV per mark on the target) and a few miscellaneous effects (being able to disguise your devices, being able to deal biofeedback damage at all). there's also the fact that every time a technomancer takes matrix damage, that is contributing to lower dice pools since matrix damage to your cyberdeck doesn't interfere with your ability to hack until the condition monitor is full. none of these are *exclusive* to the decker, but they *are* a heck of a lot cheaper. note that the TM method of ignoring noise has a sustaining modifier of -2. and has fading. and only works on a single device.

- device rating may determine your condition monitor, but for most situations your ability to avoid damage is based on firewall and intuition, plus sometimes willpower. soaking damage is equal parts firewall and device rating, as well, so the combined higher ratings (not to mention the numerous programs that offer those dice pool bonuses you insist don't exist) on an actual cyberdeck do in fact help the cyberdeck be tougher.

- a cyberlimb that takes you from 1-2 agility up to 6 costs you 30k nuyen, less if used. for an additional 19,500 you can make that agility 9. and while you're at it, you may as well pile in some armour. maybe even consider a cyberarm gyromount for an extra 6k nuyen. going from 1-2 attribute dice while shooting a one-handed weapon up to 9 (plus gaining some otherwise difficult to access RC bonuses) for about 55k nuyen. that's not expensive. wired reflexes 1 on a mundane hacker isn't too expensive (you'll obviously be wanting synaptic on an adept, but i keep hearing about how we shouldn't consider adept hackers). nor is a couple of points of reaction enhancement (and unlike the real street samurai, you'll actually be able to defend it if you want to run it wireless). you won't be a street samurai, it is true, but you can gain a *lot* of combat effectiveness while gaining a full dump stat out of it. bone lacing or bone density can help soak even more damage and aren't too expensive, synthacardium can add a bonus to gymnastic dodge (albeit this one isn't cheap). obviously, you can't get every last one of these in chargen and still have the best deck, but you can get enough of them to make a difference and turn you from someone who's better off hiding for the entire fight, to someone who can at least contribute meaningfully.

- if karma for resources sucks, then it sucks for technomancers too. please stop changing the goalposts in an attempt to make technomancers look better.

- you don't need to physically infiltrate places to remove noise. you need to physically infiltrate places because dealing with a host that is DR 8 or 9 every time you want to hack something is bloody awful, and when you're directly connected to a device you can hack the device's attributes instead of the host (and, while you're at it, get easy marks on the host... at which point you can log in and use your superior defences due to higher defensive dice pools granted from programs and matrix attributes to avoid detection for longer, and get the job done). remember how defensive dice pools are determined by matrix attributes? well, would you rather hack against a dice pool of 20 or a dice pool of 8?

[FuelDrop]

I love how the Technomancer's damaging complex form has good odds of doing more damage to the Technomancer than the target. Just goes to show how badass they are...

[Cain]

I haven't tried either in SR5 yet, but in SR4.5, TM's were always weaker than deckers. What made them powerful were the sprites, that could do things the otaku couldn't touch. However, since sprites got nerfed and deckers got a boost, I can't see how otaku managed to keep up. If I'm reading this right, they can't even provide one of the most important defensive buffs: you need a deck to slave devices, in order to protect them with the wireless on. TM's can't do that.

[RHat]

I haven't tried either in SR5 yet, but in SR4.5, TM's were always weaker than deckers.

They were a bit rules-mastery dependent, but in-Matrix they were stronger - part of what you need to factor is the effects of threading, which could even make Hack On The Fly downright safe.

[Cain]

They were a bit rules-mastery dependent, but in-Matrix they were stronger - part of what you need to factor is the effects of threading, which could even make Hack On The Fly downright safe.

YMMV, of course, but I found TM's by themselves to be, at best, almost equivalent. Threading was fine, but programs didn't cause Fading.

A techno with sprites, on the other hand... definitely a force to be reckoned with.

[RHat]

YMMV, of course, but I found TM's by themselves to be, at best, almost equivalent. Threading was fine, but programs didn't cause Fading.

A techno with sprites, on the other hand... definitely a force to be reckoned with.

Two words: Incremental threading.

I won't deny that the most effective ones are using all the tools that are available to them (same with mages), but even the dedicated threader could do some pretty awesome stuff, and the Fading values were pretty controllable.

[Moirdryd]

Ivejust had a bit of an epiphany.
While putting together a TM with a BIG focus on purely CFs along with some specific Matrix actions I had an idea... One inspired by the Secondary Deck thread....

Here it is...

You play your TM with his DR6 Attack 5 Data 5 Sleaze 6 Firewall 6 Living Persona
Your threading pool is 14
Your Fading resist is 12
Hack on the fly pool is 14
Hide pool is 11
Most other pools are 10-12

CFs are Editor, Res Spike, Res Veil, Transcend Grid, Cleaner

Your buddy plays a decker (or you get ahold of a Deck as the build for above cannot afford one, with some swapping of priorities it can be done though, but aim to grab one in game).

Then you get your buddy to invite marks from you, 3 to be precise or (if no buddy) You turn the deck on, slot it's program's, set it to Wireless (of course) and let it stand there as a Device in the matrix. Then you access to Matrix with your Living Persona as usual. You then perform Control Device and go hacking with full access to its Program Suite!

Sure it's a little convoluted and stretching some of the RAW a little, but the concept sounds totally CyberPunk to me. Using your LP to joyride/hack a deck to use its Programs as a discardable device-tool instead of something connected to your Persona.

[Jaid]

except that you're going to have to hack hosts twice, risk being detected by IC twice, won't be able to use full matrix defence actions with the cyberdeck if it's your buddy's, and if you want to avoid the first two drawbacks, you have to either hack regularly (thus being unable to use your TM powers) or lose access to the programs.

assuming it's even allowed, that is. it's unclear whether a persona is actually able to go anywhere should you remote control it. or even whether you can remote control a persona at all.

funny thing, you have those first two risks with sprites, too, but all the technomancer fans seem to be glossing over that part.

[Sengir]

There is a pretty finite amount of things that add to a starting dicepool, and none of it is exclusive to a decker.

Sure, Exploit prog for a measly 13 karma sounds totally worth the price...

[Kyrinthic]

I am not talking about magic deckers because if I were, we might as well take non-magic deckers and TMs off the table since neither can compete. its an issue, but not one I have any interest in talking about since there really isnt much to debate.

I was wrong, those numbers do help defensively, and a couple programs give actual dice pool to defense tests. It wont help your dicepool to hack better, but it can help you defend better. I am mostly avoiding pointing out things both can do, since that seems redundant. There are ways to increase pools and whatnot with matrix actions, which deckers and TMs can both do.

It is worth noting that a decker has a very limited number of programs they can run, 3 with the top deck, less with any other, and they can only change things out on their turns, so if they are putting programs in for defensive measures, those are programs that arent used for offensive ones, You can sacrifice a slot to run configurator, but otherwise, you are only making one change a round. Threading may have harder limits to be sure, but programs are not a giant pile of always on bonuses.

I mention the limits on cash buying because they are relevant. Top deck with logic bioware puts you below resources D for spending on yourself, somewhere in the 40k range, a fair bit less if you actually buy enough copies of programs to have the level of free configurability you constantly talk about (and that is a good investment, mind). Karma to cash can give you 10k with a little pain, 20k tops. You could afford wired reflexes one, if you got nothing else and spend some karma, but wired reflexes is rough on the essense even for a non-adept, especially if you ever want to upgrade it, bioware is just a lot better for that. You could get the cyberarm by pushing the karma pretty hard, but not both. The cash is going to feel very limited for a decker, and thats with taking an A in resources, they really wont have any more spending room than the TM, sadly. Spending karma for cash is something I try to avoid in character generation because it is so much less efficient than other options, I only pointed it out with the TM because it was a real option to put attribs on B and still get logic boosters, not because I thought it was a great idea. But if you did, you're numbers would be better than the deckers, I personally think you need to sacrifice too much to get there.

But at this point I think its safe to just say we disagree. I feel TM's are valid at their basic job, with a handful of unique tricks in their books compared to the decker, though they could use some work to get the survivability and flexibility outside of the matrix that a decker enjoys. You seem to feel they are utterly incapable of doing anything at all. And I think we at least both agree that a decker adept is too good.

[Jack VII]

It is worth noting that a decker has a very limited number of programs they can run, 3 with the top deck, less with any other...

The top end deck runs 6 programs. The best deck available at chargen runs 4.

[Jaid]

i don't "feel they are utterly incapable of doing anything at all". i do feel that they are worse than deckers both in and out of the matrix, while taking up more build resources and having more drawbacks to them to accomplish that... such that you are almost always better off being a decker (the main exception being "i want to be a technomancer", for which deckers have no answer).

there are a handful of things a technomancer can do which a decker can't, but for the most part you are paying a lot to get very little benefit (and most of those little benefits have a high cost in drawbacks, like massive fading values and being punished harshly for essence loss). i can make a decker that is as good or even slightly better at hacking (and if you don't think superior defensive pools makes you better at hacking, well, let's just say that if you have massive offensive dice pools but the host you're in has spotted you, you are not going to have a fun day in hackerland). and then because i didn't need as high priority in attributes, i can also be useful outside of the matrix. even just having that cyberarm i mentioned, and making it second hand, is a pretty significant boost in combat effectiveness for a fairly low price. ditch the gyromount to save on cash period, and modify it with armour later on to save some cash at chargen, and you've still got some pretty beastly suppression fire (which doesn't scale with IPs anyways). alternately, wired reflexes alone is pretty solid if you already have a decent agility (or otherwise have a decent dice pool for your damaging skill of choice).

i mean, if a decker gets a very good deck *plus* has room for cerebral boosters *plus* has room for one combat augmentation from priority A, while the technomancer is getting only a deck, and the deck isn't even remotely as good as the one the decker got (can't defend other devices, can't run programs, generally has lower stats and can't swap them around either), and then some skills... which he has to spend on sprites, so the decker still has better skills in other areas due to not needing priority B in attributes just to actually have a decent deck after paying priority A for it.

also, i think you've misunderstood configurator. it doesn't take up a program slot. you swap it in, it has a pre-selected list of programs and deck attributes in it, and the new program list doesn't have to (and in fact shouldn't) include configurator... so you only run it for a brief moment before it swaps itself out.

but really, i don't think technomancers are incompetent at hacking. they're just worse than a decker, and cost more.

for example, (in addition to making fading not so ridiculous), one of my favourite suggestions to fix technomancers is to drop the priority required by 1 for each level - current priority A now only costs priority B, for example. this would allow (for example) priority A to go to skills, priority B to go to attributes, priority C resonance, priority D race (spend any special points on either raising your resonance or on edge), priority E resources - and the technomancer would then become a highly skilled individual with good attributes to help make them a bit effective outside of the matrix. you could even put priority D resonance, priority C race, and go with a high edge build (or, you know, actually make a technomancer that isn't a human or elf without being punished quite so hard).

such a character would be, i feel, a valuable contribution to a team, and could have some value both in and out of the matrix while not being overwhelmingly strong. the main problem is higher cost than a decker combined with lower effectiveness than a decker... if being a technomancer didn't cost so bloody much, i wouldn't have such a problem with it.

[Kyrinthic]

for example, (in addition to making fading not so ridiculous), one of my favourite suggestions to fix technomancers is to drop the priority required by 1 for each level - current priority A now only costs priority B, for example. this would allow (for example) priority A to go to skills, priority B to go to attributes, priority C resonance, priority D race (spend any special points on either raising your resonance or on edge), priority E resources - and the technomancer would then become a highly skilled individual with good attributes to help make them a bit effective outside of the matrix. you could even put priority D resonance, priority C race, and go with a high edge build (or, you know, actually make a technomancer that isn't a human or elf without being punished quite so hard).

such a character would be, i feel, a valuable contribution to a team, and could have some value both in and out of the matrix while not being overwhelmingly strong. the main problem is higher cost than a decker combined with lower effectiveness than a decker... if being a technomancer didn't cost so bloody much, i wouldn't have such a problem with it.

Defense pools matter, but offense pools are more important, those are the ones that keep you from getting caught for example, and not needing the defense pools in the first place. That said, I did point out that I was wrong when I mentioned that, and there were some pretty spiffy defense programs I didn't really notice in my first run through programs, since they tend to be specialized on a single for of defense.

And I guess I am a little confused on the configurator, I thought that you basically needed that running to work, mostly due to that last sentence about 'assuming the configurator is running'. I thought it was sort of a 'heres my defensive setup hanging out in the configurator program' thing. You keep it running when you are doing other things, and then use it to swap in a more cybercombat oriented setup in a single swap, quite possibly dropping the configurator at that point. I would think to use it if it was not loaded, you would need to reconfigure once to swap it in, then a second time to do a full configuration swap? you dont run programs per say, they just have passive effects, and the text reads 'while its running you can swap a bunch of crap at once', so if its not loaded, you shouldnt be able to use it to do a full swap, otherwise it seems too good, being the only program that doesnt cost a slot to use.

My thoughts for improvement had been along the lines of a focus type item for TMs, since the system parallels magic in so many ways. It would also give them something more to spend cash on so resources E isnt such an common choice. But lower priority would work too. Bump adept up a priority too while your making changes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Sorry if I sound argumentative, but there were a lot of comments to the effect that TMs werent really viable, and I think they are. They have issues to be sure, and a decker has a lot more options and ability to do things offline, but I wanted to refute the idea that a TM was always inferior, in the matrix, they can do the same job as a decker and play on the same field.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

High School Football players and NFL Football players can play on the same field - Does not make them equal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sendaz]

High School Football players and NFL Football players can play on the same field - Does not make them equal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Indeed, if its the Broncos versus High schoolers, my money is on High School all the way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The Vikings on the other hand......

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Indeed, if its the Broncos versus High schoolers, my money is on High School all the way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The Vikings on the other hand......

No doubt about that... The Donkeys really need some help.
Who are the Vikings, though. Some Norwegian Team? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[Sendaz]

No doubt about that... The Donkeys really need some help.
Who are the Vikings, though. Some Norwegian Team? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Well it's not The Chefs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Was referring to the Minnesota Vikings, not the classic shore looters, though there is some shared blood there.....

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well it's not The Chefs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Was referring to the Minnesota Vikings, not the classic shore looters, though there is some shared blood there.....

Minnesota has a Football team? Naah, I really have to contest that one.

[Jaid]

offence pools do help you not get caught, especially against devices, but when it comes to hosts, you want to be as hard to find as possible.

see, if you do it right, you will rarely face the attributes of the host. find a device that's slaved to it, hack that device with a direct connection, get a mark. log in to the host (no test involved), and then basically ignore the host to hack other devices connected to it (note: while on the host you count as having a direct connection to slaved devices, most of which are unlikely to have defensive pools above 8-10 or thereabouts, often substantially less). all you need to worry about really is the IC that is almost sure to be in there patrolling and doing regular checks to try and find you, unless you're actually trying to hack the host itself (which can be unpleasant, and does require good offensive dice pools... but then, the decker still has much easier access to cerebral boosters with leftover resources, and doesn't have to worry about losing resonance to gain said bioware, and still has those other potential advantages particularly including that matrix damage doesn't harm their dicepools while it does harm dicepools for a technomancer... so, generally speaking, deckers will also have higher offensive dice pools anyways).

looking more closely at configurator, you have it right, and i had misread it. my bad on that. it does take two reconfigure actions to change everything over if you're not already running configurator. yet another advantage hacker adepts will have if they can get a second free action per turn.

(on a side note, i don't think adepts cost too little, nor do i think that an adept hacker is illogical; the magic is in the hacker, not in the matrix. it's improving the hacker's mind and skills, not bending the matrix. furthermore, the "problem" is not really with adepts, it's with builds that combine adept abilities with high resources to get the best of both worlds... adepts on their own are just fine. really, i feel the problem comes more with the fact that having a high priority in race is pretty insignificant, and that high priority in attributes, while good, is not nearly as good as, say, high priority in skills or resources. in other words, if attributes A was giving enough attributes that resources A couldn't compensate for dumping it, i think we'd see a lot more adepts with attributes, skills, and magic taking up the top 3 priorities, not necessarily in that order. and there's not nearly as much impressiveness in resources D to go crazy with. likewise, if race A was worth more, i think that would help make it a harder choice. alternately, to be fair, you could just *decrease* the value of adept, magician/mystic adept, aspected magician, resources, and skills... personally, i feel like beefing up attributes and race would be a bit more straightforward though).

[X-Kalibur]

YMMV, of course, but I found TM's by themselves to be, at best, almost equivalent. Threading was fine, but programs didn't cause Fading.

A techno with sprites, on the other hand... definitely a force to be reckoned with.

Sort of, TMs who threaded super high levels of Command could wreck pretty easily with drones, while a TM who threaded up stealth could be nigh undetectable.