Capturing the Attention of Boys, First Time GM, not a Pervet Options

[Shortstraw]

I personally have quite different experiences with Unarmed adepts, at least in 4E. Properly built, they can dish out Assault Cannon level damage, without all the fuss of trying to get an Assault Cannon through security, and they can even do it at range if you want.
~Umi

And with more panache.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I personally have quite different experiences with Unarmed adepts, at least in 4E. Properly built, they can dish out Assault Cannon level damage, without all the fuss of trying to get an Assault Cannon through security, and they can even do it at range if you want.

The value of an Unarmed adept is that they always have their "weapon" with them. Without dependence on gear of any sort, they can go absolutely anywhere with their lethality almost entirely undetectable. They aren't combat monster bruisers, they're highly lethal infiltrators and assassins.

Basically, if Street Sams are the "Warriors" of SR, then Unarmed Adepts are the "Rogues". A street sam's job is to be able to give (and take) more than their fair share of Dakka at range, controlling the flow of the fight by presenting an obvious high threat target for the enemies to shoot at while dishing out plenty of their own damage. In contrast, an Unarmed adept's job is high priority single target elimination, akin to a sniper - they're supposed to avoid direct combat, waiting for the right moment to strike, and when the opportunity presents itself catching the enemy by surprise with punches that can demolish cars.

If you try to play an unarmed adept as a berseker, you're doing it wrong. (Unless you build chiefly for defensiveness, maxing your Dodge pool and having solid soak, but at that point you're more of a melee sammie.)

~Umi

Agreed...
The characters I have built with the HTH Philosophy were beasts. Some even capable of dishing out damage in the Double Digits with out too many problems.
A Throwing Adept Assassin (Had an Oni Ninja with this concept) is the best of both worlds, since you can cover ranges out to about 100 Meters with thrown Weapons (of Mundane Things if you are a Missile Master) and have some really potent up-front and personal Melee damage.

[kzt]

The problem is that the developers seem to terrified of adepts being good, so you can't buy the various pieces you need at the same time. For example, you get at most 6 points of magic. If you want to go fast you have just spent 5 of these, so then .5 for killing hands (so you can damage cars) and now you get +2 damage with critical strike. But since you bought a 6 in magic how many BPs did you spend for strength? How about agility and reaction? Not so much, eh?

Oh, and strength in SR is pretty useless other then for punching people. So characters that don't have the plan of "I run up and punch him" can spend those points on getting really good at not getting hit or hitting other people instead.

Oh, but you wanted to distance strike. That cost 2 points, so now you are going to have to drop your improved reflexes to +2. So now you can do almost the damage of a heavy pistol at short range, if you hit. Vs like buying a heavy pistol. Or an alpha.

It's a trap.

[Umidori]

If you want to go fast you have just spent 5 of these...

What do you mean by "go fast"? I assume you are referring to having Rank 3 Improved Reflexes (which is actually 4 Power Points, the costs were reduced in the errata), but Rank 3 is entirely unnecessary. Four IPs is nice, but it shouldn't be your highest priority at chargen. It's much more cost efficient to go with Rank 1 or Rank 2. And if you absolutely have to splurge on Rank 3, you can always use an Adept Way discount to drop the price by a full point.

...so then .5 for killing hands (so you can damage cars) and now you get +2 damage with critical strike. But since you bought a 6 in magic how many BPs did you spend for strength? How about agility and reaction? Not so much, eh?

With the above cost savings, you should easily be able to max out your Critical Strike for +6 DV, and you can even spring for various Improved Physical Attributes.

Oh, and strength in SR is pretty useless other then for punching people. So characters that don't have the plan of "I run up and punch him" can spend those points on getting really good at not getting hit or hitting other people instead.

Succeeding with a melee character is all about positioning. Strength improves your DV, but it also improves your Running, Climbing and Swimming skills, which in turn improves your ability to properly position yourself. A massive Troll who can punch through walls is going to be a world class climber thanks to his mondo strength stat. If you can't see the potential in being able to climb a building like a spider or sprint twice as fast as the next guy, you're probably not cut out for the shadows. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Oh, but you wanted to distance strike. That cost 2 points, so now you are going to have to drop your improved reflexes to +2. So now you can do almost the damage of a heavy pistol at short range, if you hit. Vs like buying a heavy pistol. Or an alpha.

The problem is that you're going about raising your DV the wrong way. Boosting Strength is literally the least efficient way to boost your Unarmed damage. Along with the aforementioned maxing out of Critical Strike, you should also be investing in the Martial Art of your choice which offers a DV bonus. Boxing is great, because you can double up on the bonus for +2 DV.

So a Strength 1 character with Critical Strike Rank 6 and Boxing Rank 2 is throwing 9DV per punch, which is on par with two shots from a heavy pistol in the same IP (except that the enemy doesn't get to roll twice for dodging and soaking, which pushes things in your favor slightly).

Go from there to an Ork or Troll with mid-range Strength of 7 and now you're hitting for 12DV in a single blow, easily matching the damage of a double tap with an Ares Alpha.

In fact, at this point your fist has now surpassed the damage of a Panther XXL. Yeah, you only get to swing once per IP, but most assault cannons are SS anyway unless you mod them (and there's an entire camp of GMs who believe assault cannons are incompatable with the Firing Selection Change mod). Oh, and you can do this damage at any time, in any place, passing through the tightest security, because instead of having to lug around a giant fragging cannon, you just hit things with your fist hard enough to explode cars.

So yeah, maybe you can sneak your heavy pistol into a secure area, or if you're really lucky an Ares Alpha. But the Adept is gonna waltz in unarmed, easy as pie, and easily outdamage you. And even if they have to bypass security for some reason? They can rely on their great Strength to help them climb, run, and swim across obstacles while you sit back and twiddle your thumbs because you made Strength your dump stat and you have no points in Athletics.

It's a trap.

At best it's a "newb trap", in that you actually have to know what you're doing when building a character like this and know how to properly make use of its strengths while miminizing its weaknesses. Played properly, an Unarmed adept can be devastatingly effective - they just have a learning curve.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

At best it's a "newb trap", in that you actually have to know what you're doing when building a character like this and know how to properly make use of its strengths while miminizing its weaknesses. Played properly, an Unarmed adept can be devastatingly effective - they just have a learning curve.

~Umi

It does indeed have a learning curve. But you CAN make a pretty awesome Adept for Thrown, Armed or Unarmed combat.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

HtH adept in most editions of SR is a trap option. It all sounds cool, but you tend to get shot a lot and mostly lay there and bleed. When you occasionally get to HtH range you do pitiful damage through the defenders armor and body, while the defenders keep shooting you because the rules suck.

You do it like I did with a Jaguar Shapeshift Adept I made once, you just worry about not getting hit. Then you tackle the opposition down and kill them while grappling.
Then my GM found my kriptonite, winged or tracked drones...

[FuelDrop]

You do it like I did with a Jaguar Shapeshift Adept I made once, you just worry about not getting hit. Then you tackle the opposition down and kill them while grappling.
Then my GM found my kriptonite, winged or tracked drones...

Yeah, our knife nut character hasn't come up against rotor drones yet but I hope I'm there when he does... his expression will be priceless.

[Shortstraw]

You do it like I did with a Jaguar Shapeshift Adept I made once, you just worry about not getting hit. Then you tackle the opposition down and kill them while grappling.
Then my GM found my kriptonite, winged or tracked drones...

That is what briefcase rockets are for.

[kzt]

That is what briefcase rockets are for.

Because if you can't sneak a heavy pistol past security you can easily smuggle an anti-aircraft missile? No, this is where a mage build shows why it's magicrun.

[pbangarth]

Because if you can't sneak a heavy pistol past security you can easily smuggle an anti-aircraft missile? No, this is where a mage build shows why it's magicrun.

A) If there is enough security to detect hidden weapons, there could just as easily and cheaply be detectors for magic, eg. a small spirit assensing everyone who passes through a doorway (Awakened ==> special attention), or a ward. The same problem exists for magicians as exists for street sams.

B) While walking into someplace with no observable weapon is an advantage, being invulnerable to background count is also an advantage. How does the adept stack up when she loses two or three power points? Every profession has its kryptonite, and kryptonite is dirt cheap in the Sixth World.

Magicrun.

[Shortstraw]

Because if you can't sneak a heavy pistol past security you can easily smuggle an anti-aircraft missile?

You don't need AA indoors...

[Happy Trees]

This thread is exactly what I needed. I'm a seasoned D&D DM, but have virtually NO Shadowrun tabletop experience (I've played the SNES game when I was a kid, and the new sequel's "Dead Man's Switch" campaign), but find it to be an ideal world to campaign in. My kids (10 and 14) will, of course, need to be introduced in a series of milk-runs. For this reason, they're relatively overpowered (I ran some simulated battles during my writing to be sure) and their lifestyle is special. I have them as a pair of mechanics who work at a garage that is a front for a vehicle/drone grey-market supplier. As a twist, their main source of legal income is maintenance of Lone star vehicles.

The campaign setting will be in CalFree, mostly because there is enough canon information about my hometown (Sacramento) to be a good starting point, but not so much that I can't improvise what I need to balance out their relative overpower when needed. Also, the kids like the run-n-gun lifestyle endemic to Borderlands2 and its vehicle-intensive gameplay. I figure water wars in the central valley meets that easily, I have a good knowledge of the basic terrain (I lived in Sacramento for the first 25 years of my life), and the kids feel a connection with Sac, having been born there. I also like the flexibility found in such a small area; The Crescent is worlds apart from Big Sur and LA (I know, LA is technically PCC now).

The characters are twin Orks, but one never goblinized, so we have genetic twins with matching auras, but one is Ork and one is Human. The human is a dronomancer, and the ork is an adept with a few shaman abilities (severely limited shaman abilities). His totem is one of revenge, the story being their adoptive father (an Elf Decker turned school teacher) gets killed when the human's technomancer abilities become apparent on a school field-trip to Sutter's Fort and they're forced to flee Sac. I plan to use this event as their "training run" to teach them basic hacking, fistfighting, and driving challenges.

For anyone who wants to take advantage of my writing efforts, a basic outline of my ideas for Sacramento can be found https://www.facebook.com/groups/1393585707578249/

[MADness]

I'm glad my topic brought insight to some one else as well. Brief update, the game got postponed because the boys were to busy playing League of Legends to have their parents call me, and my brother forgot that he had an all weekend scout event. We will try to get a Skype call going to hash out the rest of the details. I will probably post the characters I made for them to get opinions on them (note, they are not built for optimization). I also have a slew of conversion questions, but I shall post those in a different thread.