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> Grenades, AoE and Dodging, Something official to point to?
Xystophoroi
post Mar 21 2014, 08:06 AM
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My group is playing SR5 and have - several times - expressed incredulity at just how deadly and generically useful AoE spells and Grenades are.

Reading the SR5 book does seem to imply that only the thrower needs 3 hits and the defender does not dodge (though there is a -2 modifier in there aparently? What are they dodging against at that point?).

Is there an official source I can point people to that explains the correct ruling? With the best will in the world a post in a random forum thread isn't all that 'official' sounding.

Does an FAQ or something exist?
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RHat
post Mar 21 2014, 08:14 AM
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There is a FAQ thread on the official boards, where the basic word was that there was, indeed, no dodge; to the tune of "that's right, grenades are very deadly".

The other caution, however, is that grenades are extreme force, and will draw extreme response. Spells, meanwhile, don't get into serious damage until you get into extreme Force, and thus major Drain.
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Smash
post Mar 21 2014, 09:03 AM
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Pretty much what Rhat said.

Grenades are too good to be used in the same way as they were in 4th Ed. I tend to think that this wasn't intended and that dodge rules need to be implemented.

I was toying with the idea that it should be an opposed roll where the attackers gets -3 (to simulate the "at least 3 hits" thing) and that success on the defenders part would allow them to move to the outside of the area of effect. If this blows out their movement allowance then they get the penalties.

Alternatively the defender could roll with the -2 penalty (not opposed) and each success lets them move 1m to either outside the AoE or behind some cover, etc. This would make grenades tactical but not necessarily lethal.
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Stahlseele
post Mar 21 2014, 10:17 AM
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In this general direction:
Chunky Salsa?
And how does AOE work with the whole "only one attack" mess?
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RHat
post Mar 21 2014, 11:05 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 21 2014, 04:17 AM) *
In this general direction:
Chunky Salsa?
And how does AOE work with the whole "only one attack" mess?


What do you mean? It counts as your one attack action.

And Chunky Salsa does get pretty nuts, yeah.
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Stahlseele
post Mar 21 2014, 11:36 AM
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So, i can do several attacks if i don't throw the grenade as a throwing weapon at people to do damage but instead throw them in between them to get them cought in the blast again and again?
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Xystophoroi
post Mar 21 2014, 11:40 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 21 2014, 11:36 AM) *
So, i can do several attacks if i don't throw the grenade as a throwing weapon at people to do damage but instead throw them in between them to get them cought in the blast again and again?


Or throw multiple grenades at once.

Though I suspect multiple grenades at once counts as multiple attacks.

But with the Threshold of 3 you could realistically split your pool and hit with both.
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Stahlseele
post Mar 21 2014, 11:45 AM
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Is an attack, if i don't aim them at people?
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Smash
post Mar 21 2014, 12:09 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 21 2014, 10:45 PM) *
Is an attack, if i don't aim them at people?


Aren't you just throwing it at multiple people? Suppression fire counts as an attack right?
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Stahlseele
post Mar 21 2014, 12:21 PM
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No, i am throwing it into a room.
The People in there are purely coincidental.
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RHat
post Mar 21 2014, 12:27 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 21 2014, 06:21 AM) *
No, i am throwing it into a room.
The People in there are purely coincidental.


That is what we call bullshit.

Your action is an attack because it directly effects the enemy.
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Smash
post Mar 21 2014, 12:34 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 21 2014, 11:21 PM) *
No, i am throwing it into a room.
The People in there are purely coincidental.


So a Samurai who shoots at the armoured vest, but not the dude wearing it is freed from the restrictions as well?

Sheesh! Talk about Semantics..... The RAI is pretty obvious here.
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Stahlseele
post Mar 21 2014, 12:43 PM
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So, everything that affects anybody is an attack.
So i can only throw one grenade.
Because one grenade equals one attack?
If i throw into the room one dozend of grenades at once, does it still count as one attack?

And think this further:
if i MISS when i shoot at somebody, it does not affect anybody at all.
because i missed. so i do get to shoot again then, untill i hit and affect somebody?
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Smash
post Mar 21 2014, 01:04 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 21 2014, 11:43 PM) *
So, everything that affects anybody is an attack.
So i can only throw one grenade.
Because one grenade equals one attack?
If i throw into the room one dozend of grenades at once, does it still count as one attack?

And think this further:
if i MISS when i shoot at somebody, it does not affect anybody at all.
because i missed. so i do get to shoot again then, untill i hit and affect somebody?


Man, it's amazing what happens when you read the rules.

QUOTE
STEP 2: ATTACK
The attacker rolls Combat Skill + Attribute +/ modifiers
[Limit].
Apply appropriate wound, environmental, recoil,
and situational modifiers to the attacker according to
the specific attack.


and as for grenades:

QUOTE
When throwing a grenade, choose a location as a target.
Use a Throw Weapon Simple Action and make a
Throwing Weapons + Agility [Physical] (3)

and....

When you fire a grenade, rocket, or missile you use
a Fire Weapon Simple Action and roll a Heavy Weapons
+ Agility [Accuracy] (3) Test


Why did I bold those 2. Well here's why:

QUOTE
A character may fire a readied firearm in Semi-Automatic,
Single-Shot, Burst-Fire, or Fully-Auto mode via
a Simple Action (see Firearms, p. 424) but may not
take any other attack actions
in the same Action Phase.

and....

Throw Weapon
A character may throw a ready throwing weapon (see
Ready Weapon, p. 165) by taking a Simple Action. The
character may not take any other attack actions in the
same Action Phase. Multiple readied throwing weapons
can be thrown at a target within Short or Medium
range by adding a Multiple Attacks Free Action (see
Multiple Attacks, p. 196).


Hmmm, so firing or throwing a weapon is an attack right? I don't see it specify a target, or whether it ceases to exist as an attack if it happens to miss.

Let's throw this in there too:
QUOTE
Combat Active Skills 130
Archery 130
Automatics 130
Blades 130
Clubs 131
Exotic Ranged Weapon 131
Heavy Weapons 132
Longarms 132
Pistols 132
Throwing Weapons 132
Unarmed Combat 132


The worst part about this is that that should have all been completely unnecessary because your point was one of total semantics (albeit wrong) and shouldn't have required debate.

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psychophipps
post Mar 21 2014, 01:54 PM
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The biggest thing to remember is that the damage has to go through anything in the room as well as an targets in the room. It's not very often that you'll be tossing a grenade into an empty room other than the guards inside. If a character has time to dive behind something like a desk, a door jam, etc the damage has to go through the object used as cover before damaging the targets. If it's a frag grenade, don't forget to add the +5 armor to the cover on top of the +5 armor for the targets as well.
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forgarn
post Mar 21 2014, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE (psychophipps @ Mar 21 2014, 08:54 AM) *
The biggest thing to remember is that the damage has to go through anything in the room as well as an targets in the room. It's not very often that you'll be tossing a grenade into an empty room other than the guards inside. If a character has time to dive behind something like a desk, a door jam, etc the damage has to go through the object used as cover before damaging the targets. If it's a frag grenade, don't forget to add the +5 armor to the cover on top of the +5 armor for the targets as well.


... and the reduction of the blast damage based on the distance between where the grenade landed and where the blast hits the first obstacle (be it furniture or meat) and then the 2nd obstacle, etc. Plus the reduction in damage of the blast for every obstacle that it passes through.
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psychophipps
post Mar 21 2014, 02:32 PM
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Grenades are certainly cool, they just aren't the Instant Death! ™ that some people here are portraying them to be if you keep your wits about you and consider all the factors going on.
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Draco18s
post Mar 21 2014, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (psychophipps @ Mar 21 2014, 08:54 AM) *
If it's a frag grenade, don't forget to add the +5 armor to the cover on top of the +5 armor for the targets as well.


I did the math in 4th once for a frag grenade against a brick wall. The +5 dice was almost irrelevant. The grenade still did enough damage to completely blow a hole through a 20cm thick section of wall (no chunky salsa rule used, grenade was assumed to be point blank; e.g. sitting in the corner between the wall and floor). The 3rd 10cm was not completely destroyed, but did take significant damage.

Oh, and that was including granting the 2nd 10cm the armor from the first 10cm, or something along those lines, as the rules were a little ambiguous. I recall that it could have gone one of two ways and I continued on the assumption that the wall got the better end of the stick.
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Sternenwind
post Mar 21 2014, 03:42 PM
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QUOTE (psychophipps @ Mar 21 2014, 03:32 PM) *
Grenades are certainly cool, they just aren't the Instant Death! ™ that some people here are portraying them to be if you keep your wits about you and consider all the factors going on.


Unless, the other ones use one or two grenades, with motions sensor or wireless Link plus neural interface. In that case it comes down to: “Can you soak 16 or 32* physical damage, AP -2?”

So basically 100% of all character I know, who use lethal grenades.

The plus side is that you now have a pretty good chance against high force Spirits, Dragons or MilSpec drones.

*multiple simultaneous blasts
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Sendaz
post Mar 21 2014, 03:53 PM
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Now I am just waiting for some gunsmith to try and make a Grenade Launcher with a 3 round BF setting to submit for approval. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Make your own Salsa indeed;p

*practices his Gibbs Slap for that moment*
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 21 2014, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Mar 21 2014, 09:53 AM) *
Now I am just waiting for some gunsmith to try and make a Grenade Launcher with a 3 round BF setting to submit for approval. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Make your own Salsa indeed;p

*practices his Gibbs Slap for that moment*


There is a Reason that the Mk 19 AGL is a fearsome weapon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Jaid
post Mar 21 2014, 04:02 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Mar 21 2014, 11:53 AM) *
Now I am just waiting for some gunsmith to try and make a Grenade Launcher with a 3 round BF setting to submit for approval. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Make your own Salsa indeed;p

*practices his Gibbs Slap for that moment*


if you consider that most rooms are probably not more than ~5 m across in at least one direction, you don't really need 3 grenades. if you're using it in a hallway, they probably won't even be more than ~3 m across (note: that's the full distance across. which means that if you're that full 3 m away from one wall, you're 0 from the other... also, did i mention that ceilings are probably not typically more than 3 meters up?)

so unless you're using that grenade outdoors, you're probably just going to smear people even with one grenade.
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Sendaz
post Mar 21 2014, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 21 2014, 11:00 AM) *
There is a Reason that the Mk 19 AGL is a fearsome weapon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well yes, buts a whole other level of boom boom....

QUOTE (Jaid @ Mar 21 2014, 11:02 AM) *
if you consider that most rooms are probably not more than ~5 m across in at least one direction, you don't really need 3 grenades. if you're using it in a hallway, they probably won't even be more than ~3 m across (note: that's the full distance across. which means that if you're that full 3 m away from one wall, you're 0 from the other... also, did i mention that ceilings are probably not typically more than 3 meters up?)

so unless you're using that grenade outdoors, you're probably just going to smear people even with one grenade.
Oh I agree, just saying am just waiting on a player to try and submit a design for one just because they would want to try it.

Plus am sure I could sell it to FuelDrop, he likes the boom boom.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 21 2014, 04:07 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Mar 21 2014, 10:02 AM) *
if you consider that most rooms are probably not more than ~5 m across in at least one direction, you don't really need 3 grenades. if you're using it in a hallway, they probably won't even be more than ~3 m across (note: that's the full distance across. which means that if you're that full 3 m away from one wall, you're 0 from the other... also, did i mention that ceilings are probably not typically more than 3 meters up?)

so unless you're using that grenade outdoors, you're probably just going to smear people even with one grenade.


Tis True... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Though MOST interior walls/ceilings will blow apart pretty easily (they are just fiberboard after all), so no chunky salsa for you.
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psychophipps
post Mar 21 2014, 08:32 PM
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Also keep in mind that the effectiveness of a hand grenade and the effectiveness of a grenade launcher round are completely different things. Shadowrun has chosen not to make this distinction in game.
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